Two weapon fighting

[T7V Avari]

Seems to be bugged, how is it supposed to work and how much of it is working?

- Can you only use secondary abilities of each weapon?

- Will extra attacks from 2wf be implemented as manuevers?

- Are there any penalties accrued now or later?

- Is there a feat line for it? Will there be?

[Nihimon]

You can only slot Primary Attacks from your Main Hand Weapon. These go in slots 1-3.

If you only have one Weapon equipped, then you can only slot Secondary Attacks from your Main Hand Weapon in slots 4-6.

If you have an Off-Hand Weapon equipped, then you can only slot Secondary Attacks from your Off-Hand Weapon in slots 4-6.

You will never be able to slot Primary Attacks from your Off-Hand Weapon.

I'm not sure if any of that spoke to your concerns, but it seemed relevant.

[Xeen]

Can you then hit a feat for both you main hand and your off hand at the same time and watch both go off?

I have had people ask me about this, and I do not know how to respond properly. I have just told them to play around with it and tell me lol.

Edit: I also noticed that the slotting does not work correctly. I can put main weapon feats in my off hand slots even though it has something else there.

[Stephen Cheney]

Right now, the only advantage to dual wielding is that it lets you mix combos available to different weapons. This is somewhat less obvious since we temporarily collapsed the states down, but there are some secondary attacks that you normally can't set up with your main hand if you're using a single weapon (which you'd have to rely on another player to apply), but dual wielding lets you set those up yourself.

Once we have keyword-bypassed creature damage reduction, dual wielding should also provide a small benefit in that it would allow you to, say, have a silver and a cold iron weapon at the same time, and mainly use attacks from one side when you're fighting something that's vulnerable.

These are admittedly pretty token bonuses, which is why it doesn't require any training to be able to dual wield.

Long term, what kind of things would people like to see out of dual wielding?

[Xeen]

Short term, I am cool with what you have setup. Its a start and good for MVP.

Long term, grab your players hand book lol. Dual attacks for more damage, single attacks with a defense bonus. Lots to go through and some good stuff to have on a list of eventual stuff.

[Being]

Heh, what I'd like to see in 'my' dual wield is radically different from what I would like to see in the hands of others! ;P

Seriously I would like to see the possibility of striking with both weapons using dual wield feats. Tier I DW should permit only... what, is 30% damage ballpark? ...for off hand strikes. That could improve, the more tiers of training you invested. Parry feats should be 30% more effective than single weapon, plus a lower chance to block than shield.

I think the possibility of specializing in dual wield as I've described should be trainable from the skirmisher trainer starting at... say... L8 fighter/ranger? Maybe wait until the ranger is introduced.

There is a strong argument that DW should be a rogue skill, but I think rogues are more likely to visit the skirmisher trainer than skirmishers are likely to visit the rogue trainer.

Other hand it might mesh nicely with the Duellist school...

[T7V Avari]

I agree it's something that belongs in the skirmisher line. But yeah, if its through a feat line or manuevers I'd like to see "double strike" type attacks. I also understand that we may have to wait for the ranger implement. Would like to know if that's the plan.

[DeciusBrutus]

I'd like to see two-handed weapons do more damage, sword and shield provide meaningful passive survivability benefits, and dual wielding provide the vesatility to use all six attack slots for either weapon.

I'd also like to see some cases in which a shortsword and dagger is superior to a greatsword, and I haven't seen such a case yet. I guess that giving a dagger exploit a big increase to damage factor when the conditional is met (similar in principle to the +70 base damage on opportunity that Basic Greatsword Exploit currently gets, but applied after resistance).

I'm also still confused about why heavy armor offers better protection from nonphysical attacks than light armor. I always figured that the general idea was that each attack was most effective against a specific armor type, and each armor type is effective against a different weapon type.

[T7V Avari]

What Decius said.

[Hardin Steele]

T7V Avari wrote:

I agree it's something that belongs in the skirmisher line. But yeah, if its through a feat line or manuevers I'd like to see "double strike" type attacks. I also understand that we may have to wait for the ranger implement. Would like to know if that's the plan.

There are a lot of gladiator type moves that, while powerful, double strikes leave the attacker vulnerable for an extended period (it's only a moment, but in hand-to-hand, a full second it a long time). So, maybe double axes, first axe snags shield, second axe goes for meat. Or for daggers, one is a feint, the other goes for the Achilles. There are sorts of possibilities, but there should always be a balancing maneuver (more attack, more vulnerability. More defense, fewer opportunities.)

[T7V Avari]

@ Stephen

Thought you should know there is a bug that erases the second weapon when you swap it out soemtimes. I've lost a dagger and a short sword already. Makes it a bit tough to experiment with this properly.

[Bitter Thorn]

T7V Avari wrote:

@ Stephen

Thought you should know there is a bug that erases the second weapon when you swap it out soemtimes. I've lost a dagger and a short sword already. Makes it a bit tough to experiment with this properly.

+1

[T7V Avari]

Did some testing and found some nice combos. The animations are really a mess though. When I hit my secondaries the toon tries to shoot my sword like a bow! It's mostly the main hand that gets screwey.

[Stephen Cheney]

T7V Avari wrote:

@ Stephen

Thought you should know there is a bug that erases the second weapon when you swap it out soemtimes. I've lost a dagger and a short sword already. Makes it a bit tough to experiment with this properly.

Rob says that's probably fixed in the next build. He says it sounds like a subset of a bigger weapon swapping bug that just got fixed. If you continue to see it after the next patch, please let us know.

[T7V Avari]

Stephen Cheney wrote:

T7V Avari wrote:

@ Stephen

Thought you should know there is a bug that erases the second weapon when you swap it out soemtimes. I've lost a dagger and a short sword already. Makes it a bit tough to experiment with this properly.

Rob says that's probably fixed in the next build. He says it sounds like a subset of a bigger weapon swapping bug that just got fixed. If you continue to see it after the next patch, please let us know.

Awesome! If that means that the next build will work squarely on smoothing the combat animations I say hoorah. Smoother looking combat is #1 thing needed before EE imho.

Getting closer guys and gals!

[Uthreth Baelcoressitas]

DeciusBrutus wrote:

I'd also like to see some cases in which a shortsword and dagger is superior to a greatsword, and I haven't seen such a case yet.

Perhaps once grapple effects are implemented we will see more reason to use small weapons in the offhand, or in the secondary slot. Being able to cut yourself out of grapple-like root spells would be much better than sitting there with your greatsword making faces at your enemy until the root effect wears off.

[T7V Avari]

The dagger is a condition machine.

[KarlBob]

T7V Avari wrote:

The dagger is a condition machine.

Is it now? I haven't really looked at daggers yet. I might have to do some training and switch my melee lineup from mace/mace to mace/dagger.

[KoTC Edam Neadenil]

The main issue I have had with two weapon stuff is the way it fits in the UI. When I try it the second weapon/shield seems to replace the secondary attacks of the primary weapon. Ideally we should be able to mix and match 6 attacks from any of the primary or secondary attacks of either weapon.

[T7V Avari]

If you could mix and match with any attack it would be OP. As it stands there are certain attacks that have been picked to work outside the strict primary/secondary. There are some nice combos, but nothing flat out better than just using the secondaries. However in a condition based game, when the weapons get more advanced and you are applying more conditions I think it will get more popular.

[Doc || GenAknosc]

When looking at feats available for having a Steel Dagger equipped, I see some labeled as "One-handed Fencing" feats and some labeled as "Light knife" feats.

Are the One-handed fencing feats only available to to slot when you have the dagger equipped in primary hand weapon slot?

[T7V Avari]

Doc || GenAknosc wrote:

When looking at feats available for having a Steel Dagger equipped, I see some labeled as "One-handed Fencing" feats and some labeled as "Light knife" feats.

Are the One-handed fencing feats only available to to slot when you have the dagger equipped in primary hand weapon slot?

Good question. So far I haven't found anything other than trial and error to find out which attacks can go where or with what.

[Jakaal]

I thought one-handed fencing only applied to short swords and rapiers and the like? Do daggers/knives fall under two attack feat categories?

[Stephen Cheney]

"One-Handed Fencing" is Rapiers and Short Swords (and likely eventually Sawtooth Sabres and Sianghams). "Light Knife" is Daggers (and likely eventually Klars, Sais, Starknives, and War Razors).

[Fire5542]

Hopefully the developers will incorporate duel wield proficiency blade singing multipliers for defense and to hit/crit as a special technique learned like in the old TSR handbooks.

How about duel wield poison throwing dagger rogue?

[Nightdrifter]

Stephen Cheney wrote:

"One-Handed Fencing" is Rapiers and Short Swords (and likely eventually Sawtooth Sabres and Sianghams). "Light Knife" is Daggers (and likely eventually Klars, Sais, Starknives, and War Razors).

Any chance of getting a complete list? For the calculators I had to guess. Here's my guesses (copied from the code):

matches.append(['Battleaxe',['One-Handed Axe']])
matches.append(['Buckler',['Shield']])
matches.append(['Club',['One-Handed Blunt (Club)','One-Handed Blunt']])
matches.append(['Dagger',['Light Knife']])
matches.append(['Focus',['Focus']])
matches.append(['Greatclub',['Two-Handed Blunt']])
matches.append(['Greatsword',['Two-Handed Sword']])
matches.append(['Hammer',['One-Handed Blunt (Hammer)','One-Handed Blunt']])
matches.append(['Longbow',['Longbow']])
matches.append(['Longsword',['One-Handed Sword']])
matches.append(['Mace',['One-Handed Blunt (Mace)','One-Handed Blunt']])
matches.append(['Rapier',['One-Handed Fencing']])
matches.append(['Shield',['Shield']])
matches.append(['Shortbow',['Shortbow']])
matches.append(['Spear',['Piercing Polearm']])
matches.append(['Staff',['Mage Staff']])
matches.append(['Sword',['One-Handed Fencing']])
matches.append(['Wand',['Mage Wand']])

First entry is the last word in the description text of the weapon (so "Tier 1 Short Sword" gets reduced to "Sword") and the second entry is the list of weapon types they correspond to (so "Sword" in turn gets mapped to "One-Handed Fencing").

[Stephen Cheney]

Battle Focus - Focus
Battleaxe - One-Handed Axe
Buckler - Shield
Charged Staff - Mage Staff
Charged Wand - Mage Wand
Club - One-Handed Blunt
Dagger - Light Knife
Diminishing Staff - Mage Staff
Diminishing Wand - Mage Wand
Elemental Focus - Focus
Greatclub - Two-Handed Blunt
Greatsword - Two-Handed Sword
Heavy Shield - Shield
Light Hammer - One-Handed Blunt
Light Mace - One-Handed Blunt
Light Shield - Shield
Longbow - Longbow
Longsword - One-Handed Sword
Occult Focus - Focus
Psychic Staff - Mage Staff
Psychic Wand - Mage Wand
Quickening Staff - Mage Staff
Quickening Wand - Mage Wand
Rapier - One-Handed Fencing
Short Sword - One-Handed Fencing
Shortbow - Shortbow
Somatic Staff - Mage Staff
Somatic Wand - Mage Wand
Spear - Piercing Polearm
Trident - Piercing Polearm

[KarlBob]

*Pet Peeve/Rant Warning* If there will be sawtooth sabers, I'd like to request a variance from the official Pathfinder art. Please don't angle the teeth on the blade toward the grip and the pommel, as they're often depicted. That's just asking to get your weapon stuck in your opponent's body. Sure, it looks like a praying mantis, but mantis claws look that way because they're meant to catch and hold prey. Swords are meant to slash or pierce enemies repeatedly, without getting snagged on armor or bones. Please point the teeth away from the center of the blade, instead of pointing them toward the grip. *Rant Finished*

[Nightdrifter]

Stephen Cheney wrote:

Battle Focus - Focus

Battleaxe - One-Handed Axe
Buckler - Shield
Charged Staff - Mage Staff
Charged Wand - Mage Wand
Club - One-Handed Blunt
Dagger - Light Knife
Diminishing Staff - Mage Staff
Diminishing Wand - Mage Wand
Elemental Focus - Focus
Greatclub - Two-Handed Blunt
Greatsword - Two-Handed Sword
Heavy Shield - Shield
Light Hammer - One-Handed Blunt
Light Mace - One-Handed Blunt
Light Shield - Shield
Longbow - Longbow
Longsword - One-Handed Sword
Occult Focus - Focus
Psychic Staff - Mage Staff
Psychic Wand - Mage Wand
Quickening Staff - Mage Staff
Quickening Wand - Mage Wand
Rapier - One-Handed Fencing
Short Sword - One-Handed Fencing
Shortbow - Shortbow
Somatic Staff - Mage Staff
Somatic Wand - Mage Wand
Spear - Piercing Polearm
Trident - Piercing Polearm

Awesome! Thanks Stephen!

[Gol Tigari]

KarlBob wrote:

*Pet Peeve/Rant Warning* If there will be sawtooth sabers, I'd like to request a variance from the official Pathfinder art. Please don't angle the teeth on the blade toward the grip and the pommel, as they're often depicted. That's just asking to get your weapon stuck in your opponent's body. Sure, it looks like a praying mantis, but mantis claws look that way because they're meant to catch and hold prey. Swords are meant to slash or pierce enemies repeatedly, without getting snagged on armor or bones. Please point the teeth away from the center of the blade, instead of pointing them toward the grip. *Rant Finished*

They're like that for a reason. Not only is it the mantis look alike (due to the Red Mantis Assassins using them), but they're supposed to be messy. Assassins generally don't target armored men. When they strike an opponent, they don't "Slash", they hit them and "shred"/"tear".

[KarlBob]

Gol Tigari wrote:

KarlBob wrote:

*Pet Peeve/Rant Warning* If there will be sawtooth sabers, I'd like to request a variance from the official Pathfinder art. Please don't angle the teeth on the blade toward the grip and the pommel, as they're often depicted. That's just asking to get your weapon stuck in your opponent's body. Sure, it looks like a praying mantis, but mantis claws look that way because they're meant to catch and hold prey. Swords are meant to slash or pierce enemies repeatedly, without getting snagged on armor or bones. Please point the teeth away from the center of the blade, instead of pointing them toward the grip. *Rant Finished*

They're like that for a reason. Not only is it the mantis look alike (due to the Red Mantis Assassins using them), but they're supposed to be messy. Assassins generally don't target armored men. When they strike an opponent, they don't "Slash", they hit them and "shred"/"tear".

And get stuck in any number of bones, if the target is hit anywhere other than the abdomen. I hope that either the assassins never have to get away from the scene of a killing quickly, or they carry plenty of spare sabers.

Maybe that's it: A sawtooth saber left wedged in the corpse is a calling card. It says "this isn't a random killing; the Red Mantis Assassins murdered this person." If so, then the saber should be used to deliver the killing blow, with the intention of never pulling it back out of the target, and the assassin should also carry an ordinary weapon, for dealing with any PCs who might interrupt a mission.

The saber might be best rendered in PFO as a one use item, rather than a weapon.

(The MST3K mantra definitely applies.)

[T7V Avari]

Questions for Steve Cheney:

1. It appears I am only getting the achievement for the weapon in my main hand, not the one that does the killing blow. Is this correct and if so is that's how it's supposed to be?

2. I have no way of telling if I am getting the appropriate bonus for each weapon type when I use it. How is this working currently and how is it supposed to work?

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

T7V Avari wrote:

...I am only getting the achievement for the weapon in my main hand, not the one that does the killing blow.

When you kill something with your off-hand weapon, does the main-hand weapon's counter increment?

[T7V Avari]

I'm using the longsword to set up the shortsword. Most of my kill blows are shsword, but getting the achievement for heavy blade.

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

That seems an even-bigger issue than just the shortsword not incrementing.

[Jakaal]

It seems to me the code is stuck on reading only the main hand weapon, which is why shields couldn't get ticks for the achievements, and is why this is also happening.

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

I certainly didn't expect the not-recorded second-weapon hit to also be giving credit to the other weapon, though. It feels a more insidious issue than the first alone.

[Jakaal]

Agreed, I think that is why the just removed the shield achievements for now. They don't know why offhand attacks aren't being counted.

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

I think I've seen one of the not-Ryan devs address it on the alpha boards. It isn't so much a "bug" as an incomplete feature. Currently, when the critter dies, the system tests your primary weapon and acts accordingly. Possibly another thing waiting on a form of "or" implementation. (Or maybe it is a bug. I can't keep the bugs straight from the incomplete features at the moment.)

[Dazyk]

Caldeathe is right. I remember reading about this because it was the same issue that prevented people from earning Shield Expert Achievements. Offhand weapons are not receiving kill credits as of yet. I don't think it is a bug, but I do think they are working on it.

[Bluddwolf]

Stephen Cheney wrote:

Battle Focus - Focus

Battleaxe - One-Handed Axe
Buckler - Shield
Charged Staff - Mage Staff
Charged Wand - Mage Wand
Club - One-Handed Blunt
Dagger - Light Knife
Diminishing Staff - Mage Staff
Diminishing Wand - Mage Wand
Elemental Focus - Focus
Greatclub - Two-Handed Blunt
Greatsword - Two-Handed Sword
Heavy Shield - Shield
Light Hammer - One-Handed Blunt
Light Mace - One-Handed Blunt
Light Shield - Shield
Longbow - Longbow
Longsword - One-Handed Sword
Occult Focus - Focus
Psychic Staff - Mage Staff
Psychic Wand - Mage Wand
Quickening Staff - Mage Staff
Quickening Wand - Mage Wand
Rapier - One-Handed Fencing
Short Sword - One-Handed Fencing
Shortbow - Shortbow
Somatic Staff - Mage Staff
Somatic Wand - Mage Wand
Spear - Piercing Polearm
Trident - Piercing Polearm

What about the Quarter Staff recipe I have been hearing about?

[Capitalocracy]

KarlBob, maybe you want the weapon to snag if you don't want the victim to run away.

[KarlBob]

Capitalocracy wrote:

KarlBob, maybe you want the weapon to snag if you don't want the victim to run away.

Maybe so. So the standard load-out might be two sabers for catching and killing the target, and a set of regular weapons for dealing with interference on the way into and out of the target zone.