Hey, all!
I'm getting a somewhat rare treat, in that I'm about to join a campaign with a different DM that's allowing more than just Core Rulebook material. I think I'm pretty much settled on a Magus, but I'm unsure of how the build should actually look. Hopefully, some of you with more experience with more than just CRB material can help out. Apologies if this seems rather disjointed; I'm just trying to get all of my thoughts typed up so I can get feedback.
If at all possible, I want a whip-using Magus focused on battlefield control and debuffs (along with the standard buffs, like haste, which I believe should work in well enough just by using Spell Combat). I really like the flavor of the Kensai archetype, and it looks like it might be the best choice mechanically, between free whip proficiency and Weapon Focus, the bonus to initiative to start controlling as soon as possible, and all of the extra attacks of opportunity I'll end up with.
Things still look pretty feat intensive, though... It looks like I need to pick up Weapon Finesse, Whip Mastery, and Improved Whip Mastery at a minimum.
Slashing Grace looks like a strong candidate, though I could go for an Agile whip instead. Is Arcane Deed (Precise Strike) worthwhile? It looks like it should add up, even though it doesn't multiply on crits. Flamboyant Arcana seems like it would be a tax, but if I pick up Combat Reflexes, I should have the AoOs to parry a good bit to make it worthwhile. At level 12, if I've picked that up, Arcane Deed (Evasive) seems like a no brainer.
To cover control, I'd love to fit in Greater Trip somehow (which once again helps make use of the ridiculous number of attacks of opportunity I'll have available), but I'm just not seeing room for that line. Dipping into Lore Warden seems like a possibility for the extra feats, but I don't quite feel like it would be worthwhile given the delayed spell progression.
It looks like the Frostbite + Enforcer + Rime Spell combo is probably the more efficient option. On that note, can I cast other spells while Frostbite is active? I've seen a lot of conflicting information from searching the forums. Also, is it worth trying to find room for Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses down the line?
Bodyguard + Arcane Strike (and maybe adding Riving Strike?) + Beneficial armor + Gloves of Arcane Striking seems like a really nifty combo, but once again I don't think I'll have room for it.
Late game, Pindown sounds great, and by that point I think there should be room for it. Any of the other options seem like stuff that I'd want to either come online early, or not bother with. Anyone have experience with this feat and a whip?
What Arcanas should I go for? Other than the possibility of Flamboyant Arcana and the Arcane Deeds mentioned above, I'm not sure what's really the best for debuffing. Accurate Strike seems pretty good to make sure I'm actually landing my attacks. Maneuver Mastery would be good if I found a way to fit in the trip line of feats. I'm not sure if there's enough good spells to make Close Range worthwhile. The only other one I'm seeing that sounds particularly interesting is Spell Blending.
Finally, what are opinions on the Bladebound archetype? On the plus side, I'm probably unlikely to find a lot of good whips while adventuring, and the various abilities look like they add a lot of versatility. On the other hand, though, it prevents me from using Agile to avoid needing Slashing Grace, and it precludes me from getting Cruel and Fortuitous on my whip for the fun of sickening and extra attacks of opportunity. I'm also worried that losing my 3rd level Arcana to Bladebound will hurt quite a bit when paired with losing the 9th level Arcana to Kensai; I'm not seeing the bandwidth in feats to make up for it with Extra Arcana. And apparently that delays when I could start taking the Elf favored class bonus to try to make up some lost ground, too?
Thanks to everyone for any feedback! Hopefully, with a little more direction, I'll be able to come up with an actual build for you all to critique.
I had a very similar idea. Check here for some possible inspirations. I'll keep an eye on this thread for some inspirations of my own. :)
Thanks to everyone for the feedback!
Well, you don't need to. You can be strength based and still use the whip.
That's true. If I go Kensai, though, it seems like being dexterity-based would work out better than strength-based due to the extra AC. Am I overvaluing the benefits of dexterity here?
And whip mastery/improved are mostly useful if you're planning on pulling maneuvers that will generate AoOs (like Trip), in which case basically all your feats will wind up going towards that. Between the reach of the whip and the Bladed Dash spell, there aren't many times you'll be all that worried about generating AoOs yourself unless you're up against something that also has 15' reach and Combat Reflexes.
Hm. To me, it seemed like the main benefit to Whip Mastery was lethal damage to all targets (without having to rely on a ruling on the Scorpion Whip, which looks like a mess) and the main benefit to Improved Whip Mastery was threatening. Dropping Improved Whip Mastery does let me drop Combat Reflexes, as I won't be making any AoOs, but it also seems a little silly to get a bunch of AoOs from the Kensai's Superior Reflexes without a way to use them.
Half elf gets to take the elven FCB for arcana, so that's a better race choice, also avoids the Con penalty. (Not important for rolled stats, but more important for point buy).
I'm not sure if we're using rolled stats or 20-point buy yet. Is the Elf's +2 to both Dexterity and Intelligence not worthwhile, though? What about the +2 Spell Resistance rolls? The alternate racial trait to add +2 to concentration checks? Admittedly, for an Enforcer build, getting free Skill Focus (Intimidate) could be handy.
For a whip magus, i also like the pool strike/arcing pool strike arcanas, you get the option to hit someone at reach, then do 5d6 damage to enemies within 15ft. as well, up to int modd targets.
Now that's something nifty I didn't see before. It doesn't seem quite clear, though... Is the 15ft range from me or original target?
Take a level of inspired blade swashbuckler, gets you int and cha panache pool so you don't have to use arcane points on parry.
This is interesting, but I don't think it's quite worth it. The extra pool of Panache is definitely nice, but it's not quite as nice since it only refills with Rapier crits. Similarly, Inspired Finesse would be much nicer if it gave me Weapon Finesse that worked with weapons other than the Rapier.
I really wish that Eldritch Scion could stack with Kensai; if that were the case, I would strongly consider a dip into Swashbuckler.
Best weapon for a kensai however, is the urumi, to take advantage of the crit multipliers built in. D8 18-20x2, in the same weapon group as whip and scorpion whip though, so at 7th level you can take martial versatility and make slashing grace apply to all 3 of those weapons.
This is an interesting thought. If I went with this, I would definitely go with Half-Elf to pick up proficiency and then drop the idea of Bladebound (mostly for flavor reasons, really).
It would be a lot more intriguing if the Urumi could be used with Weapon Finesse though. I don't think Martial Versatility can affect Weapon Finesse, though, and in any case, Martial Mastery comes online far too late to make it really useful. A Swashbuckler dip doesn't seem quite worthwhile without the Inspired Blade archetype for the extra Panache, but that archetype's version of Swashbuckler Finesse wouldn't affect the Urumi. Am I missing anything?
I had a very similar idea. Check here for some possible inspirations. I'll keep an eye on this thread for some inspirations of my own. :)
Thanks for the link! I'll try to keep up with your thread, too.
Hm. Looking back over it I think my best suggestion is to go with Half-Elf and take the Elf Favored Class Bonus. This allows you to get the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for free at first level and the extra 1/6 aracana per level. Of course this was all assuming going Hexcrafter rather than Kensai (Hexcrafter is better for debuff stacking). If you go Kensai then it is moot as you get the Exotic Weapon Proficiency for free from Kensai.
Oh, my thread is old. I doubt it will be updated. Still some good advice and inspiration in there though.
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Here is my build for my PFS Whip Kensai
Traits: Bruising Intellect (Intimidate), Magical Lineage (Frostbite)
Feat:
Kensai - Exotic Weapon Proficency (Whip)
Kensai - Weapon Focus (Whip)
Human - Weapon Finesse
1 - Slashing Grace (Whip)
3 - Whip Mastery
5 - Rime Spell
Bonus - Enforcer
7 - Improved Whip Mastery
9 - Arcane Strike
11 - Piranha Strike
Bonus - Weapon Specialization
Can easily switch the last 3 feats out for Combat expertise and improved/greater trip though.
I am currently level 3 and the build is working well. The build hits its pinnacle at level 5 and when you have a +1 Cruel whip.
Re: Proficiency -
I believe Drow are proficient with Whips, if DM will allow it. You'll want to be more Dex-focused, in that case.
Here is my build for my PFS Whip Kensai
Traits: Bruising Intellect (Intimidate), Magical Lineage (Frostbite)
Feat:
Kensai - Exotic Weapon Proficency (Whip)
Kensai - Weapon Focus (Whip)
Human - Weapon Finesse
1 - Slashing Grace (Whip)
3 - Whip Mastery
5 - Rime Spell
Bonus - Enforcer
7 - Improved Whip Mastery
9 - Arcane Strike
11 - Piranha Strike
Bonus - Weapon SpecializationCan easily switch the last 3 feats out for Combat expertise and improved/greater trip though.
I am currently level 3 and the build is working well. The build hits its pinnacle at level 5 and when you have a +1 Cruel whip.
Just a quick note: Whips are one handed weapons, and not usable with Piranha Strike. You'll either have to invest in getting 13 str for power attack or deal with the head ache inducing scorpion whip.
Here is my build for my PFS Whip Kensai
Traits: Bruising Intellect (Intimidate), Magical Lineage (Frostbite)
Feat:
Kensai - Exotic Weapon Proficency (Whip)
Kensai - Weapon Focus (Whip)
Human - Weapon Finesse
1 - Slashing Grace (Whip)
3 - Whip Mastery
5 - Rime Spell
Bonus - Enforcer
7 - Improved Whip Mastery
9 - Arcane Strike
11 - Piranha Strike
Bonus - Weapon SpecializationCan easily switch the last 3 feats out for Combat expertise and improved/greater trip though.
I am currently level 3 and the build is working well. The build hits its pinnacle at level 5 and when you have a +1 Cruel whip.
What Arcanas did you go with?
If you are going Slashing Grace with a whip then you will probably want Flamboyant Arcana and Arcane Deed (Precise Strike) as the first two, both from the Advanced Class Guide.
Again note that the level 11 feat he listed does not work with a whip.
The issue is that you state that you're going in a game with more than just core rulebook but didn't precise what you got more than the core rulebook...
What does your new DM allow ? For example can you have some special race added in ? How do you roll new character ? What are the special rules of the table ? Do you use Armor as DR ? Vigor and HP ? etc.
Ask your DM about the specific tules you're going to play and which book you're going to use... After that I think there will be a lot more help in this forum... ;)
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Just a quick note: Whips are one handed weapons, and not usable with Piranha Strike. You'll either have to invest in getting 13 str for power attack or deal with the head ache inducing scorpion whip.Here is my build for my PFS Whip Kensai
Traits: Bruising Intellect (Intimidate), Magical Lineage (Frostbite)
Feat:
Kensai - Exotic Weapon Proficency (Whip)
Kensai - Weapon Focus (Whip)
Human - Weapon Finesse
1 - Slashing Grace (Whip)
3 - Whip Mastery
5 - Rime Spell
Bonus - Enforcer
7 - Improved Whip Mastery
9 - Arcane Strike
11 - Piranha Strike
Bonus - Weapon SpecializationCan easily switch the last 3 feats out for Combat expertise and improved/greater trip though.
I am currently level 3 and the build is working well. The build hits its pinnacle at level 5 and when you have a +1 Cruel whip.
Good note, so Piranha strike feat opens up a spot for something else.
I was planning on taking Maneuver Mastery for my third level Arcana. Finish it up with Disruptive at 6 and Spellbreaker at 12. However I am not sure what my final plan is for the Arcanas. Any suggestions? Not personally a big fan of the arcana deeds for Magus.
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Actually looking again, the Precise strike deed to add an additional 6 damage on every hit (am I reading that right?) at level 6 whenever I make a whip attack sounds awesome. So that might be the path I take when.
At level 12 would that be +12 damage when I only attack with my whip using Precise Strike Deed feature?
Loengrin, you make a good point. Luckily, I have more information now.
Generally, any Paizo published material should be okay. Anything from the hardbacks is most certainly allowed. Anything past that would be subject to GM approval.
We're using the fast experience track.
Each character gets two traits, but otherwise we're not using any of the optional rules. We are, however, using Ravenloft as the campaign setting. (I'm not really familiar with it, so if anyone has any idea of specific things I should be aware of or consider when making a character build, feel free to mention it.)
I know that of the other three party member, one is planning to create a Monk, one is considering Rogue, and the third is flexible but considering Cleric or Wizard.
Stat generation will use the following array: 17, 15, 14, 11, 10, 8
To allow for a bit of extra variation in stats, we are allowed to move two points one-for-one from one stat to another. E.g., I could lower the 14 to a 13 to boost the 11 to a 12, and then lower the 17 to a 16 to boost the 15 to a 16. Alternatively, I could lower the 10 to an 8 to boost the 15 to a 17. Each stat must be at least 8 and no higher than 17 before considering racial bonuses.
Stats-wise, I'm thinking of lower the 11 to 10 to boost the 15 to 16, to give me the array 17, 16, 14, 10, 10, 8. Then, going Elf and assigning them as
Str 10
Dex 17+2
Con 14-2
Int 16+2
Wis 10
Cha 8
(Bump. It seems I replied at a time when nobody would see the thread, and it's been buried in other stuff since then.)
Stats look good given the options you have.
Some feat and arcana advice has been given which you can use or alter as you see fit.
As far as Cleric or Wizard go, perhaps you can split the difference and go the White Mage Arcanist.
My best suggestion: Have a plan for fighting undead. You will likely do that frequently and they will probably not be of the weak variety.
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You can click on this avatar for my PFS strength based whip kensai.
I am slowly working up the whip feats. But the key is the Wand Wielder and a wand of True Strike.
Using those at +18, I can trip or disarm virtually anything we have ever encountered that is even just technically susceptible. I have tripped/disarmed giant spider, alchemist on the ceiling, high level fighter, iron golem, caster pouch/symbol, etc... when they were much beyond our APL.
Just have a more standard backup damaging weapon to use with corrosive touch, shocking grasp, or chill touch when something can't be tripped or disarmed.
Ok, I think I've decided against using the Bladebound archetype. It's got a lot of flavor going for it and a good bit of versatility in terms of damage types, but I think the option of getting Cruel and Fortuitous on my weapon is too good to pass up for this build.
So, I'm looking at something like the following:
Elven Kensai Magus
Favored Class Bonuses
HP at levels 1-2 and 15-20
+1/6 Arcana at levels 3 through 14, for 2 bonus Arcana
Str 10
Dex 19
Con 12
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 8
Feats / Arcanas
1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency Whip (Kensai bonus)
1 Weapon Focus Whip (Kensai bonus)
1 Weapon Finesse
3 Whip Mastery
3 Flamboyant Arcana (Arcana)
5 Slashing Grace
5 Enforcer (Magus bonus feat)
6 Arcane Deed, Precise Strike (Arcana)
7 Improved Whip Mastery
8 Wand Wielder (Arcana)
9 Combat Expertise
9 Arcane Accuracy (Arcana)
11 Improved Trip
11 Greater Trip (Magus bonus feat)
12 Arcane Deed, Evasive (Arcana)
13 Combat Reflexes
14 Ghost Blade (Arcana)
15 Rime Spell
15 Bane Blade (Arcana)
17 Pindown
17 (Magus bonus feat)
18 Quickened Magic (Arcana)
19 Lunge
I dislike how long it takes to get Slashing Grace and Rime Spell, but I don't see a way around that without going Human. That cuts out two Arcanas, though...
Possibly taking a two level dip into Lore Warden Fighter at some point for two bonus feats and free Combat Expertise?
Maybe I should just go for an Agile weapon and drop Precise Strike... Then I don't need to worry about Slashing Grace at all.
Wow, you guys use a 35 pt buy? That's insane.
From my post above:
Stat generation will use the following array: 17, 15, 14, 11, 10, 8
To allow for a bit of extra variation in stats, we are allowed to move two points one-for-one from one stat to another. E.g., I could lower the 14 to a 13 to boost the 11 to a 12, and then lower the 17 to a 16 to boost the 15 to a 16. Alternatively, I could lower the 10 to an 8 to boost the 15 to a 17. Each stat must be at least 8 and no higher than 17 before considering racial bonuses.
Basically, the DM generated a random array for the whole group to use, and gave us some customization ability to apply before racial modifiers.
Also, ignoring racial modifiers, that's the equivalent of a 26-point buy, which is high, but not completely obscene.
Your choice, but I wouldn't wait that long before getting wand wielder. That +18 makes it so you can use your whip to effectively trip and disarm long before you have all those other wonderful feats and arcanas.
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think you're right. I think that lets me put off the trip feats a bit longer so I can make use of Combat Reflexes sooner, too. So, modifying things to the following:
Feats / Arcanas
1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency Whip (Kensai bonus)
1 Weapon Focus Whip (Kensai bonus)
1 Weapon Finesse
3 Whip Mastery
3 Wand Wielder (Arcana)
5 Slashing Grace
5 Enforcer (Magus bonus feat)
6 Flamboyant Arcana (Arcana)
7 Improved Whip Mastery
8 Arcane Deed, Precise Strike (Arcana)
9 Combat Reflexes
9 Arcane Accuracy (Arcana)
11 Combat Expertise
11 Improved Trip (Magus bonus feat)
12 Arcane Deed, Evasive (Arcana)
13 Greater Trip
14 Ghost Blade (Arcana)
15 Rime Spell
15 Bane Blade (Arcana)
17 Pindown
17 Improved Disarm (Magus bonus feat)
18 Quickened Magic (Arcana)
19 Lunge
Now if only I could find a decent way to get Rime Spell sooner... I almost want to go Human, but between the stat loss and losing 2 Arcanas, it's a pretty rough trade.
8 Arcane Deed, Precise Strike (Arcana)
Not seeing how you are getting this at level 8
8 Arcane Deed, Precise Strike (Arcana)Not seeing how you are getting this at level 8
I should be able to start taking the Elven favored class bonus for +1/6 Arcana at level 3, since that's when I have the Arcana class feature, yes? So at level 8, I have 6/6, gaining an extra Arcana.
Or do I have to wait until the level after I gain the class feature?
8 Arcane Deed, Precise Strike (Arcana)Not seeing how you are getting this at level 8
I should be able to start taking the Elven favored class bonus for +1/6 Arcana at level 3, since that's when I have the Arcana class feature, yes? So at level 8, I have 6/6, gaining an extra Arcana.
Or do I have to wait until the level after I gain the class feature?
Ah yes, so that's where you were getting the two extra arcanas from. Looks good.
Great build ZZTRaider, really makes me want to try this....
Got a few questions though for all of you:
1) would it be worth it to include manoeuver mastery arcana (as arcana or taken instead of a feat : extra arcana)
2) Has anyone tried the thunderstomp spells yet?
3)With this kind of build (evenmore with true strike/trip every round), I'm kind of worried that it will profoundly annoy my GM....Has anyone faced such annoyance with such a build????
1) For me, my totals are so high with true strike (and eventually a dueling/dueling whip) that they were not really all that helpful. I rarely fail to trip/disarm even without them.
2) nope
3) That has actually come up a couple of times. Since you never know what you are getting for a group with PFS, a couple of times we've had a group with several control characters and no damage characters. So the bad guys couldn't hurt us, but we had difficulty finishing them off. Made the fight drag on a long time.
One time we had a lycanthrope that was blinded, sickened, entangled, tripped, and disarmed. But at 3rd level we were having a devil of a time getting through the DR/silver. My silver dagger was the only silver weapon in the group and I didn't want to burn all my small number of spells in the first combat.
For a home game, you need to consider your group and GM.
Some people find it very annoying if you have a standard tactic that you use all the time (whether effective or not). They want to approach each encounter differently.
If I was the GM for such a character, I would start to adjust things. I would NOT totally nerf the build concept. But there would start to be a few more unarmed stealthy monks, flying snakes, or other opponents not vulnerable to trip and disarm. Not a lot, cause I want him to get enjoyment out of his PC. But I also do want to challenge him.
As they get to a level to be famous, some opponents will start making plans to deal with his standard tactics if they know he is coming. Remember predictability is a weakness.
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Give your magus the shadow weapon spell (via Spell Blending), the recharge spell, and the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (monowhip) feat. Then go to town with your conjured pseudo-real 2d6 damage 18-20/x2 crit monofilament whip.
Be sure to add a blurb in your character background about having traveled through Numeria for a time.
Have a nice time outside of Core! :D
I... I don't think... you are supposed to get access to 70k gp weapons with shadow weapon....
Still, that is sort of a cool idea.
Oops, I meant to say "18-20/x3 monofilament whip." :P
Sadly, I;m not sure that works, since the monowhip works off of the standard whip proficiency:
Price 70,000 gp; Type light melee; Proficiency exotic (whip); Dmg (M) 2d6 slash.; Dmg (S) 1d10 slash.; Critical 18-20/×3; Capacity 10; Usage 1 charge/round; Special performance, reach, touch; Weight 1 lb.
Bolding mine.
Also, i remember a post somewhere about treating technological items like unique magic items, but I can't find it right now...
Basically, being able to make a monofilament whip would also mean you could pull shenanigans like making a quasireal sunblade because you are proficient with short swords.
That would be a valid argument if items like the monowhip were at all magical. Heck, their are rules for enchanting technological items, which STRONGLY suggests that they are not generally treated as magical insofar as the rules are concerned.
I suspect the passage you read was referring to how the GM should adjudicate their placement and appearance within the campaign (such as what levels to give them out, for example).
Heh. Great trick, Ravingdork, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fly at any table I play at.
Heh. Great trick, Ravingdork, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fly at any table I play at.
I can't help but think it wouldn't fly at most tables people play at. ;P
Fair enough. :)
So, here's a thought. What traits should I go with?
Bruising Intellect seems like a given, since it will improve my Intimidate checks significantly. Since I'm not seeing a way to fit in Rime Spell until relatively late, however, I'm not sure that Magical Lineage (Frostbite) is worthwhile.
Is there something other than the normal things like Reactionary that would be particularly useful?
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Just going to drop this here... Enjoy!
(While it's tailored to the Kensai archetype, it's good for all!)
Just going to drop this here... Enjoy!
(While it's tailored to the Kensai archetype, it's good for all!)
Yes, I've referenced your guide quite a bit! Good to see you've made some updates for the Advanced Class Guide, though.
Do you think the Swashbuckler dip is worthwhile, even with a Panache pool of 1? Or does it need to be paired with the Inspired Blade archetype (and thus a Rapier, really) to deal with the slowed casting and arcana progression?
Fair enough. :)
So, here's a thought. What traits should I go with?
Bruising Intellect seems like a given, since it will improve my Intimidate checks significantly. Since I'm not seeing a way to fit in Rime Spell until relatively late, however, I'm not sure that Magical Lineage (Frostbite) is worthwhile.
Is there something other than the normal things like Reactionary that would be particularly useful?
Pragmatic Activator is a favorite of mine.
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I just finished the ACG updates just now, so you might've read some of the jumbled misinformation I started putting in but then fixed.
I've just played a ton of dnd 3.5, and multiclassing is the bomb there (currently playing a duel wielding crossbow user who, at level 20, will be able to cast 9th level wizard spells and still have a BaB of 16!). I personally really like the swashbuckler dip, it's like the fighter dip specialized for dexterity. Only having 1 panache pool point isn't too big of an issue for the first level deeds anyways, use it up as much as possible to deflect attacks or gain bonuses to skills. The rapier is a little iffy, since there's no dex to damage (Slashing Grace is for slashing one handed weapons only...) except through the agile enchantment. And, if it's only a 1 level dip, having a bigger panache pool might not help with any deed gained via arcane deed (there's a thread in the rules forum that I started, go there to voice an opinion).
It's not too bad though however for a 1 level dip. Free feat, ability to use a 1d8 weapon instead of 1d6, start using dex to damage at level 1, no loss to BaB, d10 starting HD (equates to +2 HP), 2 more skill points, and regaining proficiency's with light armor and martial weapons is awesome.
Yeah, Inspired Blade with a Rapier would mostly be an option if the upcoming Fencing Grace feat is allowed a bit early.
I guess the 1 panache pool just seems a bit worrying to me with a whip build, since I can't rely on getting a 15-20 crit range to refill it all the time. I'd expect it'd be empty the majority of the time. It definitely sounds fine for a Katana build, though.
Also, I posted some notes about your update on the guide's thread.