Also, Share Pain requires a standard action to dismiss, so you are risking the destruction of your psicrystal for that extra 20 HP.
Bad TOZ, crushing somebody's elaborate math-based argument with one sentence.I don't know that it is crushed. I was just looking to clarify the intent.
Crushed? An unnecessary insult, and a false one at that. I proposed a polite, rational, and valid problem with psionics.
A HD 4 manifestor (fluff for caster) being able to accumulate a monumental amount of hit points (236 hp) really goes against the nature of the class.
Martial characters have high hit points, spell casters have low hit points.
Yes, the Vigor power grants temporary hit points, and there are some slight limitations (or annoyances) to the ability but overall phenomenal power for the power point price (36 PP).
Does a Psion armed with the Vigor psionic power (236 hp, plus throw in a Energy Retort power) eliminate the need for a martial tank character? Yes. Not exactly a game mechanic that helps define class roles and promote teamwork, fairness and player spotlight in a role-playing game.
How does he have 236HP when Vigor does not stack with itself?
I think its fair to say with reasonable ease.
If you really want to be pedantic: The Psion has 56 hit points+ 180 temporary hit points. Still adds up to the number 236.
For example: Just say the Psion character is off adventuring and he (or she) had 4 encounters during that day.
1st encounter: Psion received 50 damage
2nd encounter: Psion received 50 damage
3rd encounter: Psion received 50 damage
4th encounter: Psion received 50 damage.
During each encounter the Psion uses an augmented Vigor power. So at the end of the day the Psion received 200 damage. Yet because of the powerful Vigor powers, the Psion only received 20 hit points of damage.
While his 9th level Wizard counterpart (with his 4 greater false life spells) would be long dead early in the 3rd encounter plus being able to contribute a lot less in combat because he used up all his 4th level spell slots.
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So he has 56HP plus 45HP per encounter, provided he has it up before the battle. If he wants to acheive that full 180 he must be struck for 45 points of damage or more without dying in the encounter. During that encounter, he may use his Vigor power by either disengaging from the enemy hitting him or manifesting defensively to get the power off. Which is a turn he is not contributing actions to winning the battle.
I feel confident that the long odds of a psion pulling this off for the maximum benefit reduces the power of this tactic to much less of a disparity than you make it out to be.
I also note that if the psion does not get hit, his 45 temporary HP goes away 9 minutes later. Becoming a mostly wasted expenditure of PP. I'm not knocking the benefit of being prepared, but novaing through your PP as a precaution can lead to an embarrassing lack of power later on.
So he has 56HP plus 45HP per encounter, provided he has it up before the battle. If he wants to acheive that full 180 he must be struck for 45 points of damage or more without dying in the encounter. During that encounter, he may use his Vigor power by either disengaging from the enemy hitting him or manifesting defensively to get the power off. Which is a turn he is not contributing actions to winning the battle.
I feel confident that the long odds of a psion pulling this off for the maximum benefit reduces the power of this tactic to much less of a disparity than you make it out to be.
I also note that if the psion does not get hit, his 45 temporary HP goes away 9 minutes later. Becoming a mostly wasted expenditure of PP. I'm not knocking the benefit of being prepared, but novaing through your PP as a precaution can lead to an embarrassing lack of power later on.
I have just finished as a GM for a long running Eberron campaign (including psionics) that lasted 3 years. Centered around a heavily modified Red Hand of Doom published adventure
One of the players was playing a Binder/Psion/Animapsion. I've experienced firsthand what the Vigor power can do.
With unlimited magical ravens (Binder power), an Arcane Gnome Beguiler and a Gnome Cleric (Divination focused) in the party, they had no trouble scouting and knowing the right moment to use buff spells and powers like Vigor.
If a party invests in scouting especially the magical version of it, they are going to have advance warning on most (if not all) encounters.
Theoretically you have a point, Vigor does have some limitations and annoyances, but from my experience not enough drawbacks to re-categorize the Vigor power as something not overpowered and destructive to gameplay.
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Then I do not find your problems to be due to the Vigor power but to the combination of other rules and party cohesion.
Indeed, and if a Party has that level of scouting down to be prepared for future encounters....
Have you have seen what a Wizard can do when he knows what's coming around the corner and has time to prepare for it?
So the Psion has a bunch of HP, the Wizard can just destroy the reality the Psion lives in which renders that HP completely irrelevant.
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Does a Psion armed with the Vigor psionic power (236 hp, plus throw in a Energy Retort power) eliminate the need for a martial tank character? Yes. Not exactly a game mechanic that helps define class roles and promote teamwork, fairness and player spotlight in a role-playing game.
If you're seriously trying to argue that psionics is overpowered because a psion eliminates the need for a tank, please let me introduce you to the druid, cleric, wizard, etc....
Does a Psion armed with the Vigor psionic power (236 hp, plus throw in a Energy Retort power) eliminate the need for a martial tank character? Yes. Not exactly a game mechanic that helps define class roles and promote teamwork, fairness and player spotlight in a role-playing game.If you're seriously trying to argue that psionics is overpowered because a psion eliminates the need for a tank, please let me introduce you to the druid, cleric, wizard, etc....
Oberoni Fallacy, making an excuse for flaws in a game mechanic just because it exists somewhere else. Doesn't make it right.
The Psion is d4 (d6 in Pathfinder) and the Cleric is d8 with different BAB progression. Not a good example to use as a comparison.
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Oberoni Fallacy, making an excuse for flaws in a game mechanic just because it exists somewhere else. Doesn't make it right.
Nice try. This entire thread has been about whether or not psionics is over-powered in the context of 3.5 spellcasting. Your complaints point out one scenario in which a single power under very specific circumstances if the dice fall perfectly is much better than a crappy arcane spell and that said scenario obviates the need for a tank.
Other folks have already pointed out the flaws in your spell vs. power scenario. I was just adding that your other example is even less relevant.
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Does a Psion armed with the Vigor psionic power (236 hp, plus throw in a Energy Retort power) eliminate the need for a martial tank character? Yes. Not exactly a game mechanic that helps define class roles and promote teamwork, fairness and player spotlight in a role-playing game.If you're seriously trying to argue that psionics is overpowered because a psion eliminates the need for a tank, please let me introduce you to the druid, cleric, wizard, etc....Oberoni Fallacy, making an excuse for flaws in a game mechanic just because it exists somewhere else. Doesn't make it right.
The Psion is d4 (d6 in Pathfinder) and the Cleric is d8 with different BAB progression. Not a good example to use as a comparison.
Which power would you then say is more damning? The ability to add 35 temporary hit points to you and your floating magic rock familiar (so, 70 temp hit points) or the ability to give yourself a base attack increase, an untyped strength boost, and 7 temporary hit points? It's the same expenditure of resources (an effective 4th level slot) but one is on a better combat chassis to begin with. Getting better buff spells And having a better set of saves, hit points, and base attack in Addition to being a 9th level caster is less of an Oberoni Fallacy issue
Oberoni Fallacy (noun): The fallacy that the existence of a rule stating that, ‘the rules can be changed,’ can be used to excuse design flaws in the actual rules. Etymology, D&D message boards, a fallacy first formalized by member Oberoni.
(which I suppose would be the Rule 0 argument) and more of a comparison of strengths of the classes. Comparing 9th level casters to 9th level casters would be the standard of comparison.
And when you take into account the plethora of options that get added to Clerics, Druids, Wizards, and to a lesser extent, Sorcerers, with every additional book, and psionics typically get only got a Few powers in Some of the additional books, the other 9th level casters can mine for power amongst any book they pick up.
It always seemed to me that the best additional content for psionics was the Mind's Eye articles, and there weren't even (comparatively) a lot of those.