Goblin Squad Member
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Just looking for an update on what's happening with these.
When can we see them, how will they compare to other times, and what kind of functionality will be around them?
Before we were told they were unlootable, because nothing pisses off a customer like getting ganked and losing something you gave money for. We were also told that they wouldn't be the best items, but they also wouldn't be the worst.
What I don't want to see is them coming into the game after everyone is 'leveled' above them, there seems to be a lot getting pushed back to make this sept 15th release. Perhaps they should be re-chargeable 'spells' that enchant current gear to give/replace some keywords for a set amount of time. I would like to see them useful through the life of a character, I hate special items that you only end up using for a week or so, then you stick them in your bank forever.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It has been my experience there are 2 kinds of games that have been released in my 35+ years of gaming.
The ones that are released when they are done and ready.
The ones that are released when a bean counter says it HAS to be done cause they need cash influx.
Many of the first ones go on to be milestones and classics.
Many of the second type fade off to obscurity and are only remembered for how bad they were if they are remembered at all.
GW currently looks to be following path #2, they have determined a date they need to start bringing in regular cash, backed it up a certain number of months to account for the free time from the kickstarter and that's when they are opening EE.
As such, MVP will be whatever they have done by September 15th.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Daily Deals are planned for Open Enrollment. We may begin releasing them earlier but that will be decided later once we see what the workloads are going to be during Early Enrollment.
Shieldmate is tagged in our internal tracking database as "mid-Early Enrollment" so it will not be immediately available but will be in before Open.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
Many of the first ones go on to be milestones and classics.Many of the second type fade off to obscurity and are only remembered for how bad they were if they are remembered at all.
GW currently looks to be following path #2, they have determined a date they need to start bringing in regular cash, backed it up a certain number of months to account for the free time from the kickstarter and that's when they are opening EE.
As such, MVP will be whatever they have done by September 15th.
Your premise is probably correct but I think your application of it to GW is not.
Official release of the game is, I believe, still being listed as 2015/2016. They have consistently voiced that the game we play in EE (ie. early Beta) is not going to represent the final release. There seems to be this growing impression in gaming that Betas should play as well as a final product. This will be a MINIMUM viable product. There will be significant functionality that will be absent. The server will crash, there will be login issues, there will be bugs a plenty. There will also be crowdforging, lots of testing opportunities and community building that will be difficult to appreciate if you are not a part of it. But people who expect anything close to a "finished" game, let alone polished, will be very disappointed and should probably wait for the actual release in a year or so. Just as GW has stated from the get go.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Official release of the game is, I believe, still being listed as 2015/2016.
Ok, I don't really agree with Summerdown, but honestly, whatever anybody says, even the President, Jesus Christ or my mother, I don't care :
The game will be released when my visa starts getting sucked at in a monthly manner. Which is next month.
Early Access is nothing but a marketing trick that most developers made up these last years to avoid critics, and the worst part is, some people just go with it.
From the 15th of September, the game will be released, and judged accordingly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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*shrug* Call it Early Access, call it Beta, call it EE, whatever. There's a big difference between a game that is marketed as final product, versus clearly stated as under development. Going in with the wrong expectation at this point seems an exercise in frustration easily avoided. Bottom line, if you want to only pay to play the finished product, wait till its finished. If you chose to pay to play the unfinished product, certainly judge its progress, then make helpful suggestions to make it better.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I recall this conversation. We were told long ago that PFO EE would not be free-to-play. Yet EE is MVP, not golden. Clear as a bell. If you do not want your Visa charged wait for open enrollment, because that is when they are willing to say the game is ready to be judged.
If you agree that it is worth the expense to further the game's development, despite the open admission of minimum viability, then accept the contract you will have to agree to partake in early enrollment. If not then use your head and your self-discipline to not agree until open enrollment.
They are being straight up about it. Be responsible for your own self and let the developer be responsible for the development, its pace, and its method. To do otherwise and expect miracles of them is to behave exactly the same as EA does to their development companies except without even the excuse of first spending millions of your investors' capital.
That said, you will not be alone in your sentiment. Massively pointed out maybe a year ago or more that once the company charges money it is out of beta and fair game for criticism.
Over against that popular sentiment is the fact that the player has to agree to a contract before playing EE that most likely sets out the unfinished status of the game, and should probably include a clause identifying that you specifically agree to evaluate it as an unfinished work-in-progress.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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*shrug* Call it Early Access, call it Beta, call it EE, whatever. There's a big difference between a game that is marketed as final product, versus clearly stated as under development. Going in with the wrong expectation at this point seems an exercise in frustration easily avoided. Bottom line, if you want to only pay to play the finished product, wait till its finished.
And be 2 years worth of XP behind other players. Yes, good idea.
If it was indeed a beta, I clearly wouldn't play. But here, if I want to be competitive, I don't have a choice.
Calling salt sugar doesn't make it too good for coffee.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that being two years 'behind' in XP is any big deal in the type of game that this is. I didn't join EVE until many years after its release, and never felt like I was unduly disadvantaged due to my lower XP count, since XP isn't the primary force multiplier in EVE.
And it isn't in PFO either. You don't need to play in EE to be competitive in OE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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MVP and EE and paying has another thread and has been hashed out considerably and isn't changing,... back to Daily deals.
@Rayn
We just want to make sure that when they hit the streets, they are usable. We will have a crafting frenzy to get good equipment before any one else and hope that these will be up to par.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And be 2 years worth of XP behind other players. Yes, good idea.
If it was indeed a beta, I clearly wouldn't play. But here, if I want to be competitive, I don't have a choice.
Calling salt sugar doesn't make it too good for coffee.
It's important to understand that there will be new players joining PFO even many years after Open Enrollment starts. It just doesn't make sense for Goblinworks to put them at a significant, long-term disadvantage.
The 100,000 XP we've been using to start new Characters in Alpha recently represents about 6 weeks of normal XP gain, and is enough to build a viable Character that can make significant contributions in virtually any field.
It will not suck to be a new Character at Open Enrollment. You'll quite quickly reach the point where you can participate in pretty much whatever you want. Success will be far more dependent on the friends you have at your side than on how much Training you've had.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It's important to understand that there will be new players joining PFO even many years after Open Enrollment starts. It just doesn't make sense for Goblinworks to put them at a significant, long-term disadvantage.
The 100,000 XP we've been using to start new Characters in Alpha recently represents about 6 weeks of normal XP gain, and is enough to build a viable Character that can make significant contributions in virtually any field.
It will not suck to be a new Character at Open Enrollment. You'll quite quickly reach the point where you can participate in pretty much whatever you want. Success will be far more dependent on the friends you have at your side than on how much Training you've had.
Yeah, but that's not really the point.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that being two years 'behind' in XP is any big deal in the type of game that this is. I didn't join EVE until many years after its release, and never felt like I was unduly disadvantaged due to my lower XP count, since XP isn't the primary force multiplier in EVE.
And it isn't in PFO either. You don't need to play in EE to be competitive in OE.
The force multiplier in EVE is the number of friends you have to go create havoc with. Brave Newbie's showed clearly how little XP actually matters in EVE. Yes your 100 million XP character can fly a super or carrier but a mob of 20 x 6 month trained guys in Heavy Interdictors and Assault frigates and cruisers WILL ruin your day.
One significant lesson to be learnt from EVE is it really make sense in this type of system to train alts for specialised tasks. If you need a miner, build a character that just mines.
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Goblin Squad Member
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*shrug* Call it Early Access, call it Beta, call it EE, whatever. There's a big difference between a game that is marketed as final product, versus clearly stated as under development. Going in with the wrong expectation at this point seems an exercise in frustration easily avoided. Bottom line, if you want to only pay to play the finished product, wait till its finished.And be 2 years worth of XP behind other players. Yes, good idea.
I was under the impression that everything will be wiped at open enrollment and all your EE stuff will just disappear ?
Have they said otherwise ?
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The force multiplier in EVE is the number of friends you have to go create havoc with. Brave Newbie's showed clearly how little XP actually matters in EVE. Yes your 100 million XP character can fly a super or carrier but a mob of 20 x 6 month trained guys in Heavy Interdictors and Assault frigates and cruisers WILL ruin your day.
What about 20 x 100 million XP guys in Heavy Interdictors and Assault frigates and cruisers vs 20 x 6 month trained guys in Heavy Interdictors and Assault frigates and cruisers ?
That's a stupid exemple.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The force multiplier in EVE is the number of friends you have to go create havoc with. Brave Newbie's showed clearly how little XP actually matters in EVE. Yes your 100 million XP character can fly a super or carrier but a mob of 20 x 6 month trained guys in Heavy Interdictors and Assault frigates and cruisers WILL ruin your day.What about 20 x 100 million XP guys in Heavy Interdictors and Assault frigates and cruisers vs 20 x 6 month trained guys in Heavy Interdictors and Assault frigates and cruisers ?
That's a stupid exemple.
In that case the team with better player knowledge and tactics will win.
There is nothing having 100 million XP can add to the ability to fly a HIC or assault frigate. You either have the skills to get point or you do not.
There are TWO factors that lead to consistently winning fights in EVE.
One is numbers.
The other is player knowledge of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be a wipe at the end of Alpha. EE, though, that's for keeps. What you earn and possess in EE will continue all the way through OE.I am not sure if that is a good thing. It will lead to people doing EE hoping to get an advantage over players who join in OE.
Hmmmm.... even if it were a signifigant advantage, how many MMO's have many of us tried out where we were not the first players in the world?
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be a wipe at the end of Alpha. EE, though, that's for keeps. What you earn and possess in EE will continue all the way through OE.I am not sure if that is a good thing. It will lead to people doing EE hoping to get an advantage over players who join in OE.
That's called, a business plan.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't really know what to say to people arguing that it's okay, 2 years of XP isn't an advantage.
The arguement and the disconnect is within the reasoning that it is known to be MVP and that EE will be charged for, followed by the complaint that it is not worth it.
"I don't have a choice" is hogwash.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Use, as an example, a player who decided to make his character an exclusive Wizard. In two years he'd be near the top of his game in the Role.
What happens if, as Open Enrollment begins, he decides he doesn't want to be a Wizard any longer? He's going to be in exactly the same position as a newbie; his advantage is that he can switch back to a hell of a Wizard if he should choose, but he's no better than anyone else at everything else.
People aren't saying two years isn't "an advantage", they're saying it's not "an insurmountable advantage".
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is not a complaint. I'm just saying that the game is released when people start paying for it.
I don't mean to be harsh. If that is how you want to look at it, that is your right. From most opinions, I would agree. The only way this is different is that they are telling you it is "not" the "release". I choose to let them tell me when thier product is "released", and I choose whether I want to pay for the access to play it before it is.
Just a matter of perspective, I suppose.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The game people will be paying for is awesome and fun and full of content. It is simply not feature complete.
For some people, playing a feature incomplete game where they have the ability to provide input on the design in a manner that means that input will be meaningful has value. They'll be having fun and crowdforging an MMO.
For some people, playing a feature incomplete game is not something they want to do. So they will wait, and only begin playing when the features they care about have been implemented. This is a continuum, so there will be people deciding the game is complete enough all the time.
As to the argument that waiting creates an unfixable gap between the first players and everyone who comes later, I guess all I can say is that if you are the kind of person who finds it intolerable to know that someone else has a number bigger than your number, you'll want to begin play on the very first day. If on the other hand you're the kind of person who just wants to be great at a game and play at the top level of ability, you'll be fine no matter when you start - the game is not designed to make each incremental day that passes create a worse experience for new players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, 2 years' worth of xp is an advantage. Getting hosed when a build you've been developing is suddenly invalidated by a new game mechanic introduced 15 months into EE is a disadvantage. Having two years to build relationships and practice working with your company might be an even bigger advantage than the xp.
People who start at the beginning of EE will be finding their way through the system. They'll probably waste some of their XP advantage by not following optimized training paths. By the time OE rolls around, newcomers will be able to benefit from two years' worth of trial and error, accurate leveling guides, and being able to train things from day one of their careers that just didn't exist on day one of EE.
Both sides have advantages and disadvantages. For now, at least, I intend to choose paying for EE and watching the game grow from the inside. If I reach a point where I just can't have any more fun until Feature X is introduced, then I'll quit paying until it arrives. Maybe I'll have 6 months more experience than a newcomer at OE. Maybe 2 years more. We'll see.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be pedantic, it's not two years worth if they hit their timeline, it's 16 months.
To be less pedantic, nobody's saying it isn't any advantage. What it isn't is an overwhelming advantage, and it isn't any different than the advantage the people who enter at OE will have over people who show up "2 years" later. In return for which, we're paying more and putting up with a year (or two) of bugs and incomplete features.
There isn't an endgame. The game is intended to emulate a world. The advantage could be roughly equated to the advantage that I have over someone who was born twenty years later then me. I've had an extra twenty years to do stuff and learn and earn, and they've never had to put up with two-channel tv, cars that have no seat belts or being away from their phone for hours at a time.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The game people will be paying for is awesome and fun and full of content. It is simply not feature complete.
For some people, playing a feature incomplete game where they have the ability to provide input on the design in a manner that means that input will be meaningful has value. They'll be having fun and crowdforging an MMO.
For some people, playing a feature incomplete game is not something they want to do. So they will wait, and only begin playing when the features they care about have been implemented. This is a continuum, so there will be people deciding the game is complete enough all the time.
As to the argument that waiting creates an unfixable gap between the first players and everyone who comes later, I guess all I can say is that if you are the kind of person who finds it intolerable to know that someone else has a number bigger than your number, you'll want to begin play on the very first day. If on the other hand you're the kind of person who just wants to be great at a game and play at the top level of ability, you'll be fine no matter when you start - the game is not designed to make each incremental day that passes create a worse experience for new players.
Yes, there isn't a magical day where the game will be "complete", that is exactly like every game with regular updates.
And I don't know what you are talking about, concerning someone saying that waiting is an unfixable and intelorable gap. Since I'm just saying that the game will not begin at OE, and that EE cannot be considered "beta", since we will have accumulated two years of experience.
And by the way, I am not criticising you, your game or your marketing, my original comment is directed in a general way, concerning the very recent "Early Access" practice, which I think is hurting the industry.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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To be pedantic, it's not two years worth if they hit their timeline, it's 16 months.
To be less pedantic, nobody's saying it isn't any advantage. What it isn't is an overwhelming advantage, and it isn't any different than the advantage the people who enter at OE will have over people who show up "2 years" later. In return for which, we're paying more and putting up with a year (or two) of bugs and incomplete features.
There isn't an endgame. The game is intended to emulate a world. The advantage could be roughly equated to the advantage that I have over someone who was born twenty years later then me. I've had an extra twenty years to do stuff and learn and earn, and they've never had to put up with two-channel tv, cars that have no seat belts or being away from their phone for hours at a time.
If I wanted to be pedantic too, I could respond to you that I actually played online games, which you admitly didn't. Not that it is a big deal, it doesn't make you less than anyone, but it makes me question your lecture about how works an MMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I wanted to be pedantic too, I could respond to you that I actually played online games, which you admitly didn't. Not that it is a big deal, it doesn't make you less than anyone, but it makes me question your lecture about how works an MMO.
That wouldn't be at all pedantic, but all the MMO experience in the world has nothing to do with whether you understand math sufficiently to know that January 2016 is 16 months away, not two years. MMOs have nothing to do with how the calendar works, and I have nearly 50 years experience with those.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Getting back to the original topic. I never really planned on using my Daily Deals. For most part, I plan on banking them and occasionally taking them out to sport around town.
Plus, over time these items will become exceedingly rare. Some lost when players leave the game and others loss through attrition. When that time arrives, I might decide to 'auction' off certain pieces of my collection. There are players out there that want rare items, especially ones that can't be gotten through the normal game, that will pay a King's ransom.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Yes, you are right, it is not 24, it is 16. but my comment was about "your lecture about how works an MMO", not your correcting me, which I'm fine with.
Anyway, if people want to believe they are paying for a beta, whatever, I am gonna stop talking on Paizo forums for a while, I'll stick to the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't really know what to say to people arguing that it's okay, 2 years of XP isn't an advantage.
In EVE its not an issue as character trading is permitted in-game and people make a career of training characters and selling them for ISK. If you really want a higher XP character in EVE just earn ISK and buy one.
I have no idea if character trading will be enabled in PFO but I suspect it will be, as character trading and ALT characters are a natural consequence of this training system. It is just very hard for people coming from a single leveling character with XP caps to really understand until they play it.
Getting back to the original topic. I never really planned on using my Daily Deals. For most part, I plan on banking them and occasionally taking them out to sport around town.
Plus, over time these items will become exceedingly rare. Some lost when players leave the game and others loss through attrition. When that time arrives, I might decide to 'auction' off certain pieces of my collection. There are players out there that want rare items, especially ones that can't be gotten through the normal game, that will pay a King's ransom.
Again with EVE --- rare tournament ships sell for several hundred billion and would cost about $6000 if you tried to buy one with ISK converted from real money.
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Anyway, if people want to believe they are paying for a beta, whatever, I am gonna stop talking on Paizo forums for a while, I'll stick to the game.
I actually paid into the kickstarter to help the game attract finance, at the time I was half expecting it to never eventuate.
I sort of saw it as a donation and the fact I get to actually play for 4 months plus some bonus alpha time is actually just a bonus for me.
I do however take your point that people buying in now at this stage may view it rather differently.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Getting back to the original topic. I never really planned on using my Daily Deals. For most part, I plan on banking them and occasionally taking them out to sport around town.
Plus, over time these items will become exceedingly rare. Some lost when players leave the game and others loss through attrition. When that time arrives, I might decide to 'auction' off certain pieces of my collection. There are players out there that want rare items, especially ones that can't be gotten through the normal game, that will pay a King's ransom.
In Ultima Online I had a complete collection of Snow Globes. I was smart though and got my complete collection through bartering duplicates instead of buying them.
If some of these items become obsolete before we get them, then I hope I can have a house to display them instead.
I know at least a few items should be useful forever if they don't make anything like them such as the Traveling Devil Box, which I believe was described as something akin to a bag of holding.
I just wish I'd gotten in sooner, I signed up on the 6th so I only get about the last quarter of the items. (I might get more with the Shieldmate thing.)
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I see it like this, the Daily Deals are not going to be "mechanically relevant" to what most games minimum viable product is in typical situations, but when you made a HUGE Fing deal about how getting in on the kickstarter, joining early, and being able to get bonus equipment and flavor stuff as part of the that was in fact successfully kickstarted.
People paid extra impulse money to get these things as part of the game they were supporting, and with that they also got a variable amount of game-time to start with. To me it follows that at the VERY least someone who qualifies for Daily Deals should be able to reasonably expect those rewards by the time they run out of purchased gametime. Telling someone they get a bunch of awesome toys if they support early, and then not delivering the advertized product features they paid for by the time their "freebie" game/xp time is up feels really janky and unfair.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I see it like this, the Daily Deals are not going to be "mechanically relevant" to what most games minimum viable product is in typical situations, but when you made a HUGE Fing deal about how getting in on the kickstarter, joining early, and being able to get bonus equipment and flavor stuff as part of the that was in fact successfully kickstarted.
People paid extra impulse money to get these things as part of the game they were supporting, and with that they also got a variable amount of game-time to start with. To me it follows that at the VERY least someone who qualifies for Daily Deals should be able to reasonably expect those rewards by the time they run out of purchased gametime. Telling someone they get a bunch of awesome toys if they support early, and then not delivering the advertized product features they paid for by the time their "freebie" game/xp time is up feels really janky and unfair.
Though unless KS daily deals are immune to the 25% destruction and hp damage I will not be reclaiming them and wandering around with them.