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The preview for the swashbuckler said "To this end, we made it relatively easy to gain Dexterity modifier damage." Uh, how? Is it the Slashing Grace feat? No, that can't be it. There's so many things wrong with that feat.
1) It's made for swashbucklers, and yet swashbucklers that use piercing weapons receive no counterpart to this.
2) It gives Dexterity to damage rolls specifically for weapons that cannot gain Dexterity to attack rolls.
3) It requires Weapon Finesse, but does not benefit finesseable weapons.
4) A feat that lets you use Dex for attack and damage rolls on a slashing weapon (scimitar) already exists. It's not only a better feat with fewer feat tax, but it synergizes with the main aspect of the feat while making this feature redundant.
I keep feeling like I'm missing something. Like I might not be aware of some combination of options that do provide the intended effect. This was a highly anticipated option advertised by the staff. Yet it was hastily slapped on Slashing Grace at the last moment.
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The preview for the swashbuckler said "To this end, we made it relatively easy to gain Dexterity modifier damage." Uh, how? Is it the Slashing Grace feat? No, that can't be it. There's so many things wrong with that feat.
1) It's made for swashbucklers, and yet swashbucklers that use piercing weapons receive no counterpart to this.
They've already admitted that's a bit of a mistake, and noted a new Feat that will be in Advanced Class Origins: Fencing Grace. Which is basically the same thing, but for rapiers.
2) It gives Dexterity to damage rolls specifically for weapons that cannot gain Dexterity to attack rolls.
Swashbucklers can. Check out exactly what Swashbuckler Finesse says. It lets you finesse any one-handed piercing weapon. Slashing Grace makes the weapon count as a one-handed piercing weapon...and thus it can be finessed by a Swashbuckler (though not usually anyone else...the whip and Aldori Dueling Sword are exceptions to that last bit).
3) It requires Weapon Finesse, but does not benefit finesseable weapons.
They're finesseable by Swashbucklers. whose Swashbuckler Finesse counts as Weapon Finesse for prerequisites.
4) A feat that lets you use Dex for attack and damage rolls on a slashing weapon (scimitar) already exists. It's not only a better feat with fewer feat tax, but it synergizes with the main aspect of the feat while making this feature redundant.
Actually...Slashing Grace is better than Dervish Dance in a crucial way: You can use something in your other hand, a shield for example. You can also get it at 1st level as a Human Swashbuckler or Kensai Magus which is shiny.
I keep feeling like I'm missing something. Like I might, not be aware of some combination of options that do provide the intended effect. This was a highly anticipated option advertised by the staff. Yet it was hastily slapped on Slashing Grace at the last moment.
There's the way Swashbuckler Finesse works above...but you aren't alone in feeling like there's something missing. Me, I feel like Fencing Grace fixes most of those problems, but that feeling is far from universal...
Just wait for Path of War to come out, there is a generic Dex to damage feat in there.
Actual pathfinder or 3rd party?
Actual pathfinder or 3rd party?
Path of War is 3pp. From what I've seen it's being billed largely as updating of 'Tome of Battle' but I also think it's DSP so.
Actual pathfinder or 3rd party?Path of War is 3pp. From what I've seen it's being billed largely as updating of 'Tome of Battle' but I also think it's DSP so.
Ah, I had a feeling. That makes it mostly useless to me then. Bummer.
Paizo has endorsed Dreamscarred Press' stuff so often that they are pretty much 2nd party by now.
Paizo has endorsed Dreamscarred Press' stuff so often that they are pretty much 2nd party by now.
No, they're pretty much not. That's a bit deceptive.
Being a 2PP means that the 1PP (Paizo) gives the 2PP licensing agreements to use their IP. The guys who do the Adventure Card Game are 2PP. Goblinworks is a 2PP (that is admittedly owned by the 1PP, making it a little hazy). Syrnscape, the company that does the Rise of the Runelords sound boards is a 2PP. The guys who do the Pathfinder Comic and, Pathfinder Battles minis are 2PP.
Dreamscarred Press is not licensed by Paizo. They are a completely independent publishing company. They've gotten verbal shout-outs and their monsters have been used in Paizo products on occasion, but they do not have the rights to the Golarion Setting or any of Paizo's IP and are therefore not a 2PP.
I was speaking figuratively, not literally. ;)
Paizo has endorsed Dreamscarred Press' stuff so often that they are pretty much 2nd party by now.
I play mostly online and the most frequent requirement for character creation is no 3rd party material. So no matter how much they may endorse another companies products, it doesn't change it to a paizo made product.
Why the hell did Weapon Finesse not do Dex to both attack and damage with finessable weapons?
This problem goes back all the way to 3.0 in the year 2000, and even cropped up in the Star Wars RPG. What was the design intent behind it?
Why the hell did Weapon Finesse not do Dex to both attack and damage with finessable weapons?
This problem goes back all the way to 3.0 in the year 2000, and even cropped up in the Star Wars RPG. What was the design intent behind it?
Which is funny, because in 5E this isnt even a feat, just a natural property attached to some weapons.
5e also doesn't have that many important statistics attached to DEX that you have in 3.x.
Reflex saves are replaced by Dexterity saves, and every other stat is important because they also have saves attached to them.
AC has a cap of how much DEX you can use depending on your armor, light, medium, or heavy.
All things considered, they also nerfed STR hard because as far as I've read into it, there is no more Power Attack mechanic, and you don't get 1.5 damage from using a two-handed weapon. A versatile weapon can be used two-handed for a larger damage die, but we all know that damage dice are not as important as flat numbers.
This appears to be a major flaw in 5e's design imo, and I do not believe that DEX/Damage should be free because it would invalidate the STR stat. I am fine with Weapon Finesse being free, but not damage.
I do believe that characters should be able to get it with a single feat, assuming free weapon finesse, or two if weapon finesse still exists in current form. Slashing Grace is a joke because of feat taxes.
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This should have been an errata to the existing feat, not a separate Rapier-only feat in another book (this one being "non-core"). It's indefensible that a book contains archetypes specifically designed to use Rapiers, while the feat that makes those characters work appears in a different one.
And it still doesn't cover Light weapons.
5e also doesn't have that many important statistics attached to DEX that you have in 3.x.
Reflex saves are replaced by Dexterity saves, and every other stat is important because they also have saves attached to them.AC has a cap of how much DEX you can use depending on your armor, light, medium, or heavy.
Dex is still pretty big. You've got your Dex save, Initiative, all ranged attacks that are worth a damn, and a full sixth of the skills. The only characters that can ignore it somewhat are those in heavy armor, and they still need it for everything outside of AC.
All things considered, they also nerfed STR hard because as far as I've read into it, there is no more Power Attack mechanic, and you don't get 1.5 damage from using a two-handed weapon. A versatile weapon can be used two-handed for a larger damage die, but we all know that damage dice are not as important as flat numbers.Power Attack is still there, it is in the Great Weapon Master feat. You really seem to be approaching 5e from the same mindset you would approach 3.5/PF.
Why should people be penalized just because they want to play a Dex based fighter? You're not going to invalidate Strength over night, or even over a lifetime, by just allowing Dex to damage.This appears to be a major flaw in 5e's design imo, and I do not believe that DEX/Damage should be free because it would invalidate the STR stat. I am fine with Weapon Finesse being free, but not damage.
I do believe that characters should be able to get it with a single feat, assuming free weapon finesse, or two if weapon finesse still exists in current form. Slashing Grace is a joke because of feat taxes.
I'll have to read into it more.
Just allowing DEX to damage will not invalidate STR, no. On that I agree.
If you make DEX to damage both easier to get than STR and better than STR then we will have issues.
a 2 feat tax on dex to damage, the loss of 2-handed damage, the problem with encumbrance and str check. Thoses are already big problem for a dex-based char. Why did we need arbitrary weapon limitation? Sawtooth sabre allow 2-weapon build without problem, so they obviously weren't afraid of 2-weapon build. The katana and scimitar are already amongst the best one handed weapon, so they weren't afraid of that.
So why the arbitrary limitation? It's dervish dance all over again. Every swash will go around with a rhoka, scimitar or katana. Every 2-weap dex build will use sawtooth sabre and everyone else that wanted something different can go screw themselves. Dagger? The horror, that would be so broken. A 2-handed spear? You would break every ap. Rapier and dagger? What kind of absurd notion, here, have your punching brawler punching dragon instead.
There are no two-weapon builds that don't have to take a swashbuckler dip for Finesse.
Dueling Swords are the only non-swashbuckler option now until Fencing Grace comes out for a DEX based character until we get either a FAQrata or some other feat. And Dueling Swords don't even work because they require another feat tax in EWP.
I think it also goes to show how dumb front loaded the kensai is considering he is the only other class that can get the full benefits from this feat at 1st level.
Umm is there an errata I am missing? I have Advanced Class and there is nothing in the Swashbuckler that says they get + Dex to damage in any of their abilities.
Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, a swashbuckler
gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with
light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she
can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as
a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as
having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting
feat prerequisites.
Weapon Finesse is just using dex for to hit instead of str.
You need to combine Swashbuckler Finesse with Slashing Grace.
Swashbuckler Finesse gives you dex to hit with one-handed piercing weapons, Slashing Grace lets you treat one one-handed slashing weapon as a piercing weapon, and you gain dex to damage with it.
Still laying down my bet that they are going to errata the words "light and" in front of one handed in slashing grace, because that lines up with similarly worded feats and abilities.
I sincerely hope the rapier will not be the only weapon that get´s DEX to damage with that new feat. That would sincerely suck and be a very weird decision. Having dervish dance and slashing grace apply DEX to damage for slashing weapons, but only rapiers can receive it for piercing weapons.
Besides the fact that it will be a new feat in a non-core splatbook...
Errata this in the ACG would be the far better option.
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What? Using a martial weapon in the manner it was designed for? Sacrilege I tell you!Which is funny, because in 5E this isnt even a feat, just a natural property attached to some weapons.As it should be.
There are two problems with that:
1. As marshmallow pointed out, DEX in pathfinder is a heavily loaded stat already: AC, Reflex, Ranged to hit, initiative and 7 skills, while Strength governs melee to hit, melee damage, thrown and composite bow damage, carry capacity and 2 skills. If you could just get dex to hit and damage with your melee weapons you basically don't need strength any more because you get a perfectly capable fighter without it, actually a MORE capable fighter because you don't even need to split your attention between STR and DEX at all. Okay, your damage dice are slightly lower but everything else is higher.2. this only extends to rapiers in particular: they actually shouldn't be finessable. Rapiers are almost as heavy as bastard swords and have a one-handed grip, they actually should require strength. But of course im speaking historically and not awesome-fantasy terms.
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What? Using a martial weapon in the manner it was designed for? Sacrilege I tell you!Which is funny, because in 5E this isnt even a feat, just a natural property attached to some weapons.As it should be.There are two problems with that:
1. As marshmallow pointed out, DEX in pathfinder is a heavily loaded stat already: AC, Reflex, Ranged to hit, initiative and 7 skills, while Strength governs melee to hit, melee damage, thrown and composite bow damage, carry capacity and 2 skills. If you could just get dex to hit and damage with your melee weapons you basically don't need strength any more because you get a perfectly capable fighter without it, actually a MORE capable fighter because you don't even need to split your attention between STR and DEX at all. Okay, your damage dice are slightly lower but everything else is higher.2. this only extends to rapiers in particular: they actually shouldn't be finessable. Rapiers are almost as heavy as bastard swords and have a one-handed grip, they actually should require strength. But of course im speaking historically and not awesome-fantasy terms.
(before anyone thinks differently - this post is entirely sarcastic & satirical)
1 - But... but... I want my super cool finesse fighter with an strength of 8 to dance around the stupid full plate fighter and poke giant holes through him! It'll be awesome!!
2 - Hey - I fenced once! Those foils are really light. The guy said something about real rapiers being heavier - but I don't believe him!
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Swashbuckler makes dex based combatants viable without sneak attack. (yay?) If all it took was a feat to make dex = damage - it'd be extremely OP.
Even as it stands - while I realize it would make a straight swash suck at level 1, I kinda wish that Swashbuckler finesse was a 2nd level ability as it makes it too easy to single level dip as it stands, similar to the 3.0 ranger. Can you really see any well built rogue, or especially ninja (get more panache) not dipping a level?
This
This should have been an errata to the existing feat, not a separate Rapier-only feat in another book (this one being "non-core"). It's indefensible that a book contains archetypes specifically designed to use Rapiers, while the feat that makes those characters work appears in a different one.
And it still doesn't cover Light weapons.
There are two problems with that:
1. As marshmallow pointed out, DEX in pathfinder is a heavily loaded stat already: AC, Reflex, Ranged to hit, initiative and 7 skills, while Strength governs melee to hit, melee damage, thrown and composite bow damage, carry capacity and 2 skills. If you could just get dex to hit and damage with your melee weapons you basically don't need strength any more because you get a perfectly capable fighter without it, actually a MORE capable fighter because you don't even need to split your attention between STR and DEX at all. Okay, your damage dice are slightly lower but everything else is higher.2. this only extends to rapiers in particular: they actually shouldn't be finessable. Rapiers are almost as heavy as bastard swords and have a one-handed grip, they actually should require strength. But of course im speaking historically and not awesome-fantasy terms.
1. I completely agree with you on every front here.
2. Rapiers averaged 2.2 pounds whereas longswords ranged from 2.4 to 4 pounds. Even disregarding that, it's how the weapon is wielded, not the weight. Rapiers represent a time in early modern European history with the rise lightly armored, mobile fighters that excelled at using precision strikes to bypass armor and do serious damage to foes. Pathfinder does not really have an adequate model for this historical type of fighter.
That being said, Dexterity builds as written in the core rules are still underpowered and hinder character concepts. I think Dex to damage can work with some reasonable compromise. At the very least, Weapon Finesse should have been a weapon property rather than a feat.
In my homebrew RPG, I solved the disparity between Strength and Dexterity builds by having your hitpoints scale off of Strength. This has Strength builds focus more on soaking up damage, doing heavy damage with big weapons, and wearing heavy armor. Dexterity builds would focus on mobility and dodging. Strength builds excel at zoning and fighting multiple melee combatants at once. Dexterity builds excel at dueling and crossing the gap against long range threats. I wish such a fix could exist for Pathfinder.
I join the Q-Q-Qism by agreeing with everyone's disappointment, but i think what paizo wants to dodge here are TWF-Dex to damage builds. Paizo just needs to make the feat to Dex-to-Dmg able to light weapons but not let them TWF, or give the damage just to the main attacks and not the off-hand. i don't know, maybe is my thing, but i really hate the fact that Slashing Grace is meant to be a Swashbuckler's feat (even though kensai can make it work) then why not make it a class ability? feats are meant to be open for any class, and i don't think of a single Swashbuckler build atm that don't get Slashing grace or Fencing grace.
Why the hell did Weapon Finesse not do Dex to both attack and damage with finessable weapons?
This problem goes back all the way to 3.0 in the year 2000, and even cropped up in the Star Wars RPG. What was the design intent behind it?
The design intent is there for balance. By design some classes are more powerful but balanced by requiring multiple attributes to be effective. Allow Dex to damage means one less stat you need in point buy and you can dump it down to max out dex. This may cause some classes to be more powerful that should be.
Then there is str stat, it's use would be reduced.
I think those are the argument behind it. Personally I don't buy it. It uses up feats and those are in short supply. I'd go higher strength to save few feats many instances as well as to fit a concept. I'd go dex to damage for concept.
Short spears, wakizashi, kukris, wands of misery, all that stuff should be included in the DEX to damage feat! Urgently!
TWF DEX to damage builds cxan easily be dodge by only allowing a buckler used in the second hand or better require it to be free. Or carry a lantern or torch. That would also suit rogues very well actually.
STR builds can still carry a lot more, climb better and have probably either higher damage (just think of double handed weapons) or higher AC due to shields and better armor. It seems many people completely forget about encumbrance.
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Two Weapon Fighting might become worthwhile after sinking a ton of feats into it. Is that the scenario they want to avoid at all costs?
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As marshmallow pointed out, DEX in pathfinder is a heavily loaded stat already: AC, Reflex, Ranged to hit, initiative and 7 skills, while Strength governs melee to hit, melee damage, thrown and composite bow damage, carry capacity and 2 skills. If you could just get dex to hit and damage with your melee weapons you basically don't need strength any more because you get a perfectly capable fighter without it, actually a MORE capable fighter because you don't even need to split your attention between STR and DEX at all. Okay, your damage dice are slightly lower but everything else is higher.
You're kidding, right?
Dexterity to damage never gets 1.5x multipliers for two-handing, nor does it get that for feats like Power Attack, much less be able to have effects like Impact. It's extremely restricting in its choice of weaponry (the only surefire way I know of to be any good at TWF with pure Dexterity is with Light Shields and the Shield Master feat), and actually requires sinking feats with extensive pre-requisites and magic enhancements in order for it to be possible. For it to be optimal, it'd have to match Strength's parameters, which it never will since it's always lagging behind, and has much fewer options to work with, if any. Additionally, you'd have to cripple yourself in the early game in hopes of actually being able to utilize your effects to their strongest when they actually come online. And even when they do, you have to shoehorn yourself to be a Crit Fisher to actually pump out comparable damage, since going any other route screws you over on damage hardcore. The sad part is the other guy can probably do it just as often and for even higher benefits than you.
That's not including Max Dexterity Bonuses from armor; pumping Dexterity out to be super high really defeats the purpose of actually buying armor or having it to begin with, even when utilized to their maximum, only equate to a difference of Touch AC v.s. Flat-Footed AC in comparison to the two build types.
Reflex Saves would be considerably higher, but the character who has minor Dexterity modifiers would already have his saves shored up to make any further increase negligible or invaluable. The Dexterity-focused character would have his Reflex Save bumped up for hardly any good reason, unless he's fighting things way above his paygrade.
Skills might have value, specifically Escape Artist and Acrobatics, since creatures with super-crazy CMD (AKA, all of them which are large or higher in size) will actually be possible to tumble away/escape from, in comparison to the other guy. However, the other guy doesn't have to do any of that, because with everything going the overgrown punk should be 1-rounded. Not the case for Mr. Agile over here, with his piddly damage dice and incomparable modifier multipliers and such, he'll be lucky to kill it in 2-3 rounds. As for the other skills, I believe those too are limited by MDB, as well as ACP if you have any.
Initiative? Sure, you can go first, but then what? You probably don't have Pounce or any reliable means to initiate a full attack, and if you're Dexterity-based, unless you have buffs to use on yourself, you're stuck with a thumb in the bum. The other guy has easier means to get abilities like Pounce, or something similar, and he gets them automatically without any investment (that's more important, anyway)...
Needless to say, I don't think it's really a fair comparison when we're talking strict damage, nor is it worthwhile since the differences you claim to exist are simply separate levels of semantics.
The other guy has easier means to get abilities like Pounce, or something similar, and he gets them automatically without any investment (that's more important, anyway)...
Huh?? How do you get pounce with no investment? The only things I can think of are a fighter archetype, a catfolk racial feat, and a specific line of barbarian rage powers. Of those, the fighter archetype is probably the smallest investment as the pounce-like ability is a class feature, but it's still an investment.
There's druids of course. I guess they'd involve the least investment. Still, 'strength based melee druid' is at least a somewhat narrower focus than just 'fighter type.' Were Druids what you were referring to?
The other guy has easier means to get abilities like Pounce, or something similar, and he gets them automatically without any investment (that's more important, anyway)...Huh?? How do you get pounce with no investment? The only things I can think of are a fighter archetype, a catfolk racial feat, and a specific line of barbarian rage powers. Of those, the fighter archetype is probably the smallest investment as the pounce-like ability is a class feature, but it's still an investment.
There's druids of course. I guess they'd involve the least investment. Still, 'strength based melee druid' is at least a somewhat narrower focus than just 'fighter type.' Were Druids what you were referring to?
My argument behind that is that they will generally have an easier, more reliable means to get full attacks compared to the other guy, and their full attacks deal more damage anyway. Throwing in Charge bonuses only helps secure their already superior hits, meaning stronger, more consistent damage than the other guy.
Additionally, what I mean by "no investment" is that they don't really have to sacrifice anything to get their benefits. Fighters lose armor training that they don't even really need. (I should know, I'm playing that archetype in a campaign right now.) Barbarians get their Pounce, being that's the de facto Rage Powers to take outside of Superstition/Spell Sunder and the like. The other Rage Powers are mostly garbage and a half, and are stupid to invest in at all. The Racial Feat doesn't really count as that's about as limiting and restrictive as a given TWF build. Druids do basically get it automatically via Wildshape, and can summon things that get it with their spells (though they aren't particularly strong).
It may just be that the devs forgot about Sawtooth Sabers. I know I hadn't heard of them before this. And even if the same devs who worked on this book worked on ultimate equipment, there are a LOT of rules to keep memorized. One unique weapon property could certainly have slipped through the mental cracks, as it were.