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Ok.. I did a lot of looking up on oversized stuff..
(though originally it was for slashing grace, till it was pointed out I missed the bit about slashing grace requiring a weapon appropriate to your size.)
So all crossbows (well maybe not double xbow? I haven't looked that one up lately) can be increased in size. Because all crossbow can be used onehanded at a -2 penalty.
So since using it in such a fashion makes it one handed, you can increase the size by 1 step.
So a heavy crossbow would take -2 due to wrong size , and another -2 for the particularly weird way of wielding it. So a total of negative 4 for a two handed (admittedly it would look weird as hell. I imagine Monster Hunter for visuals on oversized light and heavy xbow) xbow.
So, heavy crossbow, 1d10, oversized by one category is 2d8.
slap on vital strike line, (4d8, 6d8, or whatever the biggest vital is (i've never gotten it since i'm never full bab .)) and spend a grit point to make it touch AC. I suppose if wizard, will enlarge for more stupid dice.
You've got one hell of on a one shot. Either for snipping or whatever.
(looked it up just now)Double crossbow doesn't have the same wording with one handedness, however, it does say it's a heavy crossbow with two bolts so I guess you could run it past a gm
take the -4 as listed above, and then the -4 from it being a double crossbow for a total of -8 to hit (Yeouch, even on full bab+dex on touch ac).
This would net you 2 bolt hits, vital strike doubles weapon's damage dice and is not precision based etcs, and each bolt is that weapon's damage. (still only get dex, deadly aim, precision, enhancement etc, damage boost once though) So that rapidly grows stupid as well.Though no matter what you do a double crossbow is a pain to reload. " Reloading one bolt is a standard action; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Crossbow Mastery allows you to reload both bolts as a move action" I'd love to be prone and "sniping" with that though or start a fight with it then switch to a heavy large repeater.
As near as I can tell the increase by one size doesn't affect the reloading. So with a light xbow, oversized, you can shoot decently fast.
(because by the time it's too big for you to reload, it's too big for you to wield. by the oversized weapon rules (Note. it doesn't specify reloads anywhere, thus it's my supposition based on oversized weapon rules and the lack of it saying ranged weapons are excluded from them. Since weapons and oversized weapon rules are right next to to each other.
Visually. .I find this utterly awesome.. Like the one guy in an anime,movie etc with a big ol depleted uranium round big rifle that liquifies people. He rarely pulls it out, usually opting for a pistol, but when he does something gets a big chunk out.
I'm extra weird since I'd build this multiclass though.
Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote: In Council of Thieves, there's an oversized crossbow in book one, so there's a precedent.
Functionally, it's a good idea, the penalties to hit are offset by more damage.
Ooh.. I wish I had that path so I could look at it.
Also sidenote, still sorta on topic..
Anyone know anything other than Barbarian Titan Mauler that aids in using oversized weapons?
Ooh, id love to make a turretguy...
Bolt ace, stalwart defender, snap shot aoo, and then the normal xbow stuff.
Vital if spare feats.
Here's a problem with Crossbow Master--
As it reads, it only prevents AoO's for reloading, not for firing? Was that ever errata'd, or do you still need 'Point-blank master' or another similar ability to avoid getting hit when you fire?
Torbyne wrote: The no action reload is strange... I assume that is to get around the free action limit they FAQ'd for firearms? But that does open the can of worms about not needing a free hand for something that isn't an action. Weird. The "no action" is a metagame rules thing. It doesn't make it a literal no action in-game, so of course you still need a second hand. What it does (other than what you say) is allow you to reload out of your turn.
Finn Kveldulfr wrote: As it reads, it only prevents AoO's for reloading, not for firing? That is correct.
Quote: Was that ever errata'd, or do you still need 'Point-blank master' or another similar ability to avoid getting hit when you fire? Of course you do. If there's already Point-blank Master then why would Crossbow Master do what it does, obsoleting it?
Zwordsman wrote: Ok.. I did a lot of looking up on oversized stuff..
(though originally it was for slashing grace, till it was pointed out I missed the bit about slashing grace requiring a weapon appropriate to your size.)
So all crossbows (well maybe not double xbow? I haven't looked that one up lately) can be increased in size. Because all crossbow can be used onehanded at a -2 penalty.
So since using it in such a fashion makes it one handed, you can increase the size by 1 step.
So a heavy crossbow would take -2 due to wrong size , and another -2 for the particularly weird way of wielding it. So a total of negative 4 for a two handed (admittedly it would look weird as hell. I imagine Monster Hunter for visuals on oversized light and heavy xbow) xbow.
So, heavy crossbow, 1d10, oversized by one category is 2d8.
slap on vital strike line, (4d8, 6d8, or whatever the biggest vital is (i've never gotten it since i'm never full bab .)) and spend a grit point to make it touch AC. I suppose if wizard, will enlarge for more stupid dice.
You've got one hell of on a one shot. Either for snipping or whatever.
(looked it up just now)Double crossbow doesn't have the same wording with one handedness, however, it does say it's a heavy crossbow with two bolts so I guess you could run it past a gm
take the -4 as listed above, and then the -4 from it being a double crossbow for a total of -8 to hit (Yeouch, even on full bab+dex on touch ac).
This would net you 2 bolt hits, vital strike doubles weapon's damage dice and is not precision based etcs, and each bolt is that weapon's damage. (still only get dex, deadly aim, precision, enhancement etc, damage boost once though) So that rapidly grows stupid as well.Though no matter what you do a double crossbow is a pain to reload. " Reloading one bolt is a standard action; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Crossbow Mastery allows you to reload both bolts as a move action" I'd love to be prone and "sniping" with that though or start a fight with it then switch...
Hmm, I think I like it... assuming a large sized double crossbow and gravity bow that is 3D8 per bolt at -4 per hit or 6D8 at -8, vital strike at level six puts it at 12D8 + 1 (crossbow training) + ~6 (dex mod) + 2 (weapon enchantment). Not sure I'd want to go for deadly aim but that's an extra 4 damage but brings your hit penalty to -10. Still, average damage of 62 at -8 or 66 at -10, not bad for a single action. But I think you'd run out of grit fairly quick with that. At level 11 though you get free loading each turn so you could move and shoot really well and use signature deed to always hit touch AC. Plus average damage for 18D6 is 81, right? Plus maybe 15-20 in static modifiers? Touch ac, even with the hit penalty should be easier than regular AC at that point too... very Monster Hunter/sniper.
I think deadly aim is ok for after lv 11, when your using touch ac for anything within your first range increment.
I utterly love it.Grit is certainly a problem. Though if your gm is the type who plays withnoticeable hp amounts or signifies you could get the kill quite often. I think the crit rate on a xbow isn't too horrible either.
I'm toying with a bolt ace version,and a investigator version.. with small dip in swash and/or bolt ace.
bolt ace wins out generally, but the flavor on the investigator side is just amazing haha. Studied Combat offsets the negatives pretty good..
I'm trying to see if there is a decent balance, like bolt ace 5 or 7 then Invest. but just doesn't seem like mixing is at all possible honestly.
but yeah. .You'll need a decent bit of Grit fairly often, or carry a secondary cross bow. Start the fight off with a grit paid touch shot , then whip out the other weapon. It's a light xbow for m ybolt ace version (with a heavy oversized xbow) and on the investigator he carries a hand crossbow, and a heavy oversized.
Hum. actually for a Investigator, or a Bolt Ace who wants a melee weapon , likes int and more grit points.. a 1 lv dip in Inspired blade is interesting.
swashbuckler says panache stack with grit (see below) so this one would get panache based off quite afew mental stats. and be able to fill them up with crit/kill with rapier and xbow. Though depending on how you read inspiried blade's panache, maybe you can only fill up the points from that with rapier.. I read that lil note (pasted below) to say they are the same thing, just different names. Specifically the part that says you " spend and gain panache points in place of grits and vice versa" So you could fill it up with rapier or xbows.
2level dip might be good for my investigator, with studied combat might over take the negatives. Maybe. Plus investigator's get enlarge person.
That all was pretty off topic of pure bolt ace build but still neat. Swash,Investigator or Alch isn't a horrible dip for a bolt ace honestly... As far as multiclassing in pathfinder goes anyway
"The gunslinger's grit and the swashbuckler's panache represent two paths to gain access to the same heroic pool. Characters with both grit and panache class features combine the two resources together into a larger pool of both grit points and panache points. For purposes of feat prerequisites, a character with the panache class feature satisfies the prerequisites as if she were a grit user, and vice versa. For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain panache points in place of grit points, and vice versa."
Its a cool idea to be pulling Grit in from so many sources but in practice with point buy i think you'd be dissapointed... or do you have a stat buy plan already? In a rolled stat game though, there is potential for hilarity in an Inspired Blade/Bolt Ace. Investigato,r i think, would be ahead for a little while or in specific games where you arent facing a lot of heavy/naural armor. But for most games i'd bet a mithral double bow that you'd rather get signature deed on your touch attack sooner than to gain half your level in hit/damage bonus. The last game i ran i saw natural armor bonuses of +17-22, more than makes up for the -10 to hit with an oversized double running with deadly aim.
Also, unless i missed something, enlarge person doesnt affect ranged weapons, dont the bolts/arrows return to normal size as soon as they leave your weapon? But if the investigator has Gravity Bow on their list that might make it a worthwhile dip for the Bolt Ace. Or just have a buddy with infused extracts. Team game and all ;)
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You cant combine deadly aim with the deed that hits touch ac.
Perhaps I misused a term, the deed allows your weapon to target touch AC but is not a touch attack as a ranged spell is.
Yeah pullint from multi sources was mostly for an investigator to get repost and touch ac shoot, amoung other 1st lv deeds.
Tyo not bad for a bolt acw whod prefer int over wis.
In that invest, cha and wis were gonna be 10 probl but stilo I uess 2 points from them, int was gonna be the gravy. Loss of signiure deed is heavy tho with neg 4 or more on a 3 4 class.
I still totally wanna try it just cause id not done much high lv. And this idea is beyond amusing me rigt now. ?..and I like resource pools.....
Oh I forgot bout that enlarge detail. Too bad.
P still great for if your ever traveling by carriage 8r guarding somewhere, get a bug big xbow and enlarfe yourself to be able to use it.
I dont jnow of any way to get gravity bow on an extract list. Anyone know? Ni would utterly l8ve tobjust poor gravity bow extract on my giant xbow before a fight.... but most likely wand it is.
Guh note to self.
Check deadly aim
Check swashbucklr wording with regarda to gunslinger lvs and deeds.
Sorry forntypos! Using tablet typing away from home andbi suck atthe small keyboars
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Deadkitten's right, actually - normal gunslingers are able to use deadly aim with touch attacks because guns are an exception to the no touch attack with deadly aim rule.
Quote: Early Firearms: When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim. There's no similar rule exception for crossbows, so they are still affected by the Deadly Aim limitation. RAW a bolt ace is unable to use Deadly Aim with the Sharp Shoot deed.
Ah yeah. thats too bad... and almost certainly a result of the accident with Bolt Ace, with the oversite with changing some details. Gunsmithing,proficiency etcs. That new deed probably shoulda had a blirp about deadly aim.
Hum.. Does anyone know feat or traits for using bigger weapons? guess it's time for me to trudge through feats and traits
Kudaku wrote: Deadkitten's right, actually - normal gunslingers are able to use deadly aim with touch attacks because guns are an exception to the no touch attack with deadly aim rule.
Quote: Early Firearms: When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim. There's no similar rule exception for crossbows, so they are still affected by the Deadly Aim limitation. RAW a bolt ace is unable to use Deadly Aim with the Sharp Shoot deed.
Ugh. Yet another indication that Bolt Ace didn't get looked over by an editor...
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The ACG has more crunch than any other book I've seen from Paizo and because of the extended play test (and judging by the book, continual revisions post-playtest) they were probably pushing the editors really, really hard to get this book out on time for GenCon - I really don't blame them for missing things.
That said, it would be really, really nice if the FAQ team could set aside some time soon for fixing some of the more obvious mistakes and clear up some unclear aspects.
Pummeling Style (what does "punch" mean?)
Bolt Ace (gun proficiency, starting out with a firearm, Sharp Shoot + Deadly Aim)
Ecclesitheurge (where'd my class feature go? How does Bonded Holy Symbol work?)
Slayer's Studied Target (Skill bonus?)
Slayer's Stygian Slayer (not proficient with any weapons - at all)
Brawler's Shield Champion (no bonus to AC while wielding a shield, not proficient with shield bashes)
Slashing Grace (not sure if "one-handed" is a mistake or intentional, if it's the latter it'd be really nice to have someone explain the reasoning behind the restriction)
Divine Protection (Um... Really?)
Strike me as the top ones so far. I'm sure I've missed some.
The playtest document only contained the base classes, with only a few feats and no archetypes. From what we've seen (not just in this book), maybe archetypes should be in the playtests as well. Cynics would accuse them of crowdsourcing their editing, but at least there would be editing.
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If it was possible from a time frame perspective I'd say crowd-source editing for Pathfinder is a great idea! ~Two thousand enthusiastic amateur fans looking for confusion, typos or "just plain broken" will frequently spot things that a half dozen professional editors will not.
As an example the "Advanced Class Guide potential errors" has over 150 posts from 70+ posters that have found dozens of errors already.
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Here's my take on a bolt ace, though your mileage may vary
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Human, favored class bonus +1/4 grit per level
01 Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload: Light Crossbow
02
03 Precise Shot
04 Deadly Aim, +1 Dex
05 Rapid Shot
06 Alchemist
07 Alchemist, Extra Arm, Extra Discovery: Extra Arm, retrain Rapid Shot to Two Weapon Fighting
08 +1 Dex
09 Clustered Shots
10 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
11 Iron Will
12 +1 Dex
13 Improved Precise Shot
14 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
15+ ???
Technically, the 4th arm is not necessary, but I took it for style. After gunslinger 12 I would personally go the rest in alchemist.
Some thoughts on the double crossbow.
I do not think you can fire it with one hand so wielding an oversized one is out. It would be cool if having 3 arms would let you wield an oversized two handed weapon.
The double crossbow can not be full attacked with any way out since the fastest reload you can get is swift action. 11 levels of gunslinger is still nice for the free reload every turn.
To take full advantage of vital strike one needs at least a +16 BAB and to be as large as possible.
The best I have come up with is using the polymorph any object to transform our gunslinger into rift giant. Since there are no spells that turn you into gargantuan giant your stats stay the same.
Use the plant domain to activate the growth ability to become colossal.
Gravity bow does not change the size of your weapon so it should still work on colossal crossbow.
1d10->2d8->3d8->4d8->6d8->8d8->16D8->64d8
Adding in a pinch of barbarian with furious finish allow this to maximized.
This 512 damage plus double any static mods and only a -2 to dex.
Assuming we can add 45 in static mods then we will break 600 points in one shot but it that does not seam all that impressive for a 2oth level character.
I would be willing to bet a that two Xbows can do better with there 9 attacks.
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote: Here's my take on a bolt ace, though your mileage may vary
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Human, favored class bonus +1/4 grit per level
01 Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload: Light Crossbow
02
03 Precise Shot
04 Deadly Aim, +1 Dex
05 Rapid Shot
06 Alchemist
07 Alchemist, Extra Arm, Extra Discovery: Extra Arm, retrain Rapid Shot to Two Weapon Fighting
08 +1 Dex
09 Clustered Shots
10 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
11 Iron Will
12 +1 Dex
13 Improved Precise Shot
14 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
15+ ???
Technically, the 4th arm is not necessary, but I took it for style. After gunslinger 12 I would personally go the rest in alchemist.
I wish I had thought of this, but thank you dear Sir, you have shown me the path to bringing a favorite character from Planescape Torment to the table. IT MUST BE DONE.
So that's kind of a shame about the deadly aim bit. Wonder if it will get clarified or reinforced at some point. Still, dex mod will be a greater static boost for most of the game anyways.
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Yeah double xbow might not be doable for oversized, but it's pretty good on it's own.2 bolts and 1 oversized are petty similar in the end.
large heavy xbow is 2d8 for -4
double xbow is 2d8 (because each bolt is 1d8) for -4. It's basically the same thing interestingly. I hadn't noticed that until you brought that up.
So they are kinda the same. except for reloading and how it bolt costs.
If your GM lets you get a larger double xbow and use the normal xbow's one handed penalty for it. then that is pretty mean haha.
Note that doesn't crossbow mastery specifically say that whatever crossbow you have rapid reload in, is now freeaction to reload? That overrides the specifics in double crossbow and it's move action.
I'll have to post my random investigator idea later. It'll be bare bonds I guess though
Don't have access to alll of ACG
but does swashbuckler's favor level bonus give a percentage of a panache point? Like the above's 1/4 grit point?
cause by wording on swashbuckler, those two might count together.
Minotaur double Xbow has less penalties and does a D10 to start with. Still not good enough.
Torbyne wrote: Darigaaz the Igniter wrote: Here's my take on a bolt ace, though your mileage may vary
Human, favored class bonus +1/4 grit per level
01 Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload: Light Crossbow
02
03 Precise Shot
04 Deadly Aim, +1 Dex
05 Rapid Shot
06 Alchemist
07 Alchemist, Extra Arm, Extra Discovery: Extra Arm, retrain Rapid Shot to Two Weapon Fighting
08 +1 Dex
09 Clustered Shots
10 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
11 Iron Will
12 +1 Dex
13 Improved Precise Shot
14 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
15+ ???
I wish I had thought of this, but thank you dear Sir, you have shown me the path to bringing a favorite character from Planescape Torment to the table. IT MUST BE DONE. One could also play around with the order of those first 4 feats, perhaps swapping rapid reload and deadly aim.
I think that build looks pretty good.
Feat order is ok I think. would depend heavily on when you started playing this guy.
Well have mine more or less built, but it ended up being more.. an investigator build than bolt ace. Though it does make use of some of bolt ace's (and swashs') deeds. mostly crossbow usage. Bab is always 2below current level (at least til lv 10) with studied strike does ok.
I can't decide Double Crossbow or large heavy.
Im heavily debating the one shot a round kinda thing or not..
Theres a feat for amove action to gain +4 to hit, which basically negates both xbow's penalties. Double Crossbow probably has more damage potential when used with gravity bow wand. It's reload sucks even with crossbow mastery (move action to reload both).
Ugh I wrote up a ton but lost it in a webpage glitch.
Basically.. (all having gravitiy bow)
oversized light, has the best reload, and 3d6 damage per bolt. No need for rapid shot (unless yo uwant) or crossbow mastery
Oversized heavy, has better damage at 3d8, but requires crossbow mastery for free action reload. OR repeating and just lose a standard action to reload after every 5 shots.
Double Crossbow, has the best damage at 4d6 (2 bolts doing 2d6) but even with crossbow mastery, it's a move action to reload both bolts. So would need an autoloading thing somehow
Double crossbow can't (baring some enchantment or auto loading I don't know of) full attack ever, so def a one shot per round thing. the other two can potentially full attack.
But if going one shot a round with vital strike stuff. Then Crossbow mastery isn't that good. rapid shot is a bit wasted with it. The easiest would be a oversized light crossbow I guess, for -4 to hit and 2d6 damage (4d6 vitaled).
Oh bolt ace lv 11, with crossbow mastery can reload a double crossbow as a swift action.
For those who were curious on that weapon
So they soundly make the best one shot sniper.
Lv 11, crossbow mastery, gravity bow wand on a double crossbow. Vital strike improvied vital strike, devistating strike, dex damage. Best one shot I can think of--but not particularly great in the DPR world of lv 11.
Though! Dead Shot, from lv 7.
for a full round action you can roll your bab (lv 11, 11 bab, so 11, 6,1 iterative attacks) so your gravity bowed double xbow (2d6 per bolt, 2 bolts) Becomes an amusing sorta vital strike. but potentially 12d6 at lv 11.
Huh. Just realized.. Isn't that basically vital strike...but ful round and more chances to hit. Well thats lesss exciting, but good if you don't have vital iguess.
Kudaku wrote: Slayer's Studied Target (Skill bonus?) The do in fact get the skill bonus increase. As noted here.
Good point, Dead shot saves you a boat load of feats and is a nice middle ground between clustered shots and the vital strike chain. Wand of gravity bow and a double crossbow would be decent sniping when using it too. But it won't account for rapid shot or haste's extra attacks :/
Deadmanwalking wrote: Kudaku wrote: Slayer's Studied Target (Skill bonus?) The do in fact get the skill bonus increase. As noted here. Yeah, the slayer mechanic would be an example of something that "could be made more clear" rather than an actual error - I'm really happy Mark got on that one straight away. :)
Yeah.
Though if you wanted to go with vital strikes, pure bolt ace.
You could pick up nature magic feat from ACG, and then the various debuffs you can tack onto vital strikes. Could entangle, faerie fire, fatigue. Though that's 4 feats right there. So yeah not the best haha.
Though, I woul d still quite like, crossbow mastery line, double xbow, vital strike line, and the fatigue or entangle vital strike.
I am torn about if i want to do a Vital Strike Sniper, a Repeating Crossbow Marksman or Nordom Whistleklik. For the first two i keep imagining a Saving Private Ryan, WWII style soldier using a crossbow instead of a Garand. (Thwack, Thwack, Thack, Thwack, Thwack, Ping!) Nordom would just be Nordom because nothing can make Nordom any better than Nordom already is. Except by talking to him and telling him he could be better :)
Maybe there will be clarification soon about what proficiencies and feats a Bolt Ace starts with and that will make a build path clearer.
Nordom Whistleklik? I know not of this.
Oh.. on double xbow.. a wand of reloading hand would solve it I guess for 2 shots a round or just for reloading.
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ah.. So I think I came up with the best "one shot per round" kinda build.. Didn't stat out order so it's kinda just the hodgepodge ideas.
Note: not a specific build, it's a concept one giving all the options. Though you could actually get most of these into a pure bolt ace character.
Double Xbow,
Ace bolt lv 11.
Crossbow mastery line,
Deadly aim
Vital Strike line
Devestating strike
Focused shot (not sure if that would be once or twice. and the range sucks)
(If in PFS or using that FAQ about SLAs) nature magic feat and Arcane Strike.
If you'd like you could dip barb or the new rage song class, and get the Arcane Strike-Vital STrike feat. (Arcane Strike's damage is multiplied by vital)
If dip as per above, Furious Finish is doable.
With lv 11 ace bolt and crossbow mastery, you can reload as a swift action. and be able to spend a grit (or signiture deed) to attack via touch at first range increment.
Double xbow, shoots two bolts at once at -4. The weapon specifies Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and other precision-based damage only apply to the first bolt.
So Deadly aim, arcane strike, point blank shot, Dex to damage, enhancment or elemental enchantments on the weapon are double (happens once per bolt, two bolts)
the damage from Devestating strike Is only once though (as vital doubles the weapon roll, and there is only one weapon roll (2d8 from both bolts)
If you dipped the rage/ragesong stuff, then the bloodied arcane strike thingy, might be per bolt.. That one is kinda hard to figure out.
P
Basically. you get to use "many shots" in one standard action. and get to apply all the goodies to it.
Not really gonna compare to artillary archers, but you can keep moving with this kinda thing and well just amusing as hell to put so much into one shot.
I've made a modified version, using bolt ace and Investigator.
Gives up damage for skill points, extracts, and such. Unable to get less than a move action to reload is a problem (baring wand of reloading hand)
Looking forward to see how he goes
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ngc7293 wrote: What they could have done was replace Gunsmithing with Precise Shot (or another feat) and Medium and Heavy armor Proficiencies would replace the firearm proficiency and any firearms gained (however that is worded).
But I also like how the Bolt Ace seems to fix the problem where people are scared of guns in a fantasy setting.
Rather than armor proficiencies I think the archetype would be better served by replacing firearm proficiency with proficiency in all crossbows, opening up the repeating and double crossbow. That would also give you at least one weapon option capable of benefiting from both Crossbow Mastery and the later ability to improve your reload speed. Anyone else find it odd that firearms go full-round -> standard -> move -> free but crossbows go full-round -> standard -> move -> swift -> free?
Trading Gunsmithing and the battered firearm for Precise Shot would be solid.
SSlarn, I am modifying the Bolt ace.
at level one I removed Gun smithing and battered Fire arm and replaced it with a masterwork cross bow. I also removed one Trait for balance.
at second level I replaced fire arms proficiencies and replaced them with
proficiencies in repeating crossbows and double cross bows.
at 4th level I gave the bolt ace crossbow mastery and delayed Nimble+1 until its next progression at 6th level
I modified the wording sharp shoot deed by adding the following paragraph.
Crossbows: When firing any crossbow, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim.
Zwordsman wrote: Nordom Whistleklik? I know not of this.
Oh.. on double xbow.. a wand of reloading hand would solve it I guess for 2 shots a round or just for reloading.
One of my favorite parts of Planescape: Torment is this little guy, Nordom Whistleklik (http://torment.wikia.com/wiki/Nordom)
Aside from removing his wings for an extra set of arms to dual wield crossbows, his dialogue always made me laugh.
"Nordom, are you speaking to your crossbows?"
"I am not speaking to them, I am listening to them. They were submitting queries as to when they will get to shoot something."
or
"Attention: Fall-From-Grace. Do you exert optical gravity?"
"Pardon me?"
"I have perceived you exert a field that forces others to follow you with their eyes. They lack the muscle control to turn away."
"Why Nordom, are you trying to court me?"
"It was not my intention to initiate legal action against you."
Lou Diamond wrote: SSlarn, I am modifying the Bolt ace.
at level one I removed Gun smithing and battered Fire arm and replaced it with a masterwork cross bow. I also removed one Trait for balance.
at second level I replaced fire arms proficiencies and replaced them with
proficiencies in repeating crossbows and double cross bows.
at 4th level I gave the bolt ace crossbow mastery and delayed Nimble+1 until its next progression at 6th level
I modified the wording sharp shoot deed by adding the following paragraph.
Crossbows: When firing any crossbow, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim.
So a level 1 Bolt Ace retains firearm proficiency and then loses it at level 2? Not sure how removing a trait balances it either... why not just let the character have proficiencies at level 1 and a choice of any kind of crossbow but its "customized" or otherwise of no value to others and can be upgraded to masterwork as per battered firearm?
Ooooh I forgot about planet scape! Fun game
Note on the weird reloading thing, from move to swift,
I think it was specifically for the bilt ace who doesnt get crossbow mastery or the one who uses a double xbow.
Without a xbow mastery, reloading a repeater would become a swift.
And with it reloading a double xbow would become a swift,
Im guessing its for someone who wantws to skip xbow mastery. But also tobprevent full attack actions with double xbow, asnit stands it restricts a double to, 2 shots a round, for an total of 4 bolts m some modifiers. If you could full attack with it, youd be basically volley firing with that amount.
Its a reasonable balance, most bolt ace will have rapid reload, and more than likely xbow mastery,.
Tldr
The inclusion of swift in the class features reload, is specifically for certain heavy duty xbows, and to supplement someone not wanting xbow mastery. This
Qnd as for changing the class, just give prof in all xbow, remove guns,
Take gunsmithinf and rename it to crossbow knowledge.
Recieve a bettered xbowbof any kind, replace the gunsmith bonus feat with probably just rapid reload.
I feel like relaod makes more sense, your so adept ar xbows you can workbthe mechanisms better than anyone.
Noting wrong with precise strikem but reload fits better it think
Zwordsman wrote: Ooooh I forgot about planet scape! Fun game
Note on the weird reloading thing, from move to swift,
I think it was specifically for the bilt ace who doesnt get crossbow mastery or the one who uses a double xbow.
Without a xbow mastery, reloading a repeater would become a swift.
And with it reloading a double xbow would become a swift,
Im guessing its for someone who wantws to skip xbow mastery. But also tobprevent full attack actions with double xbow, asnit stands it restricts a double to, 2 shots a round, for an total of 4 bolts m some modifiers. If you could full attack with it, youd be basically volley firing with that amount.
Its a reasonable balance, most bolt ace will have rapid reload, and more than likely xbow mastery,.
Tldr
The inclusion of swift in the class features reload, is specifically for certain heavy duty xbows, and to supplement someone not wanting xbow mastery. This
Qnd as for changing the class, just give prof in all xbow, remove guns,
Take gunsmithinf and rename it to crossbow knowledge.
Recieve a bettered xbowbof any kind, replace the gunsmith bonus feat with probably just rapid reload.
I feel like relaod makes more sense, your so adept ar xbows you can workbthe mechanisms better than anyone.
Noting wrong with precise strikem but reload fits better it think
Your logic makes some depressing sense. The double crossbow would be just a little much with a rapid, clustered, full attack. Too bad about that but vital strike and dead shot are still options.
yup Dead shot for any pure bolt ace.
Vital line for any not. . THough sadly the ones who'd love vital strike the most have the lowest bab. 'tis a shame.
Still the inability to take a lot of vital strikes is mitigated by a double xbow.
Depending on weight issues. I'm looking to make myself an investigator acebolt who carries double xbow, launching xbow, and a repeating handxbow.
Something tasty for everyone. Launching xbow might require a alch dip for real damage.. but it's mostly for rule of cool anyway
Anarchy_Kanya wrote: Finn Kveldulfr wrote: As it reads, it only prevents AoO's for reloading, not for firing? That is correct.
Quote: Was that ever errata'd, or do you still need 'Point-blank master' or another similar ability to avoid getting hit when you fire? Of course you do. If there's already Point-blank Master then why would Crossbow Master do what it does, obsoleting it? On this subject... because the flavor text for Crossbow Mastery says "...and even fire them in melee with little fear of reprisal", but the mechanics do NOT support the flavor text. Not the first time that's happened, though. Of course, Point-Blank Master is seriously limited in regard to the classes that can get it.
The other 'why' part is the thought that one might have been for bows and the other stands as the equivalent for crossbows, but as written, that's not the case.
I think the mechanics support the text.. There were already a few ways to get firing without provoking aoo (snap shot, and i think 1 or 2 others but they slip my mind. close quarters thrower is thrown only I hink as well but there were others). So they were referring to the reloading issue (as without either feats/abilities, you would provoke firing, then reloading)
Point blank master is painfully painfully hard to get for sure.. Such a shame for any non full BAB class.
Entryhazard wrote: Torbyne wrote: Regarding the remaining firearm proficiency and gunsmithing feat, what seems the best or most likely swap outs? All crossbows seems the best fit for proficiencies and maybe rapid reload for gunsmith? A crossbow of choice or even master work crossbow would be awesome instead of a battered firearm but seems very unlikely. The battered firearm as a class feature is there because the really high cost of a firearm make it impossible for a character at level 1 to afford a firearm with his starting wealth, and the classes designed to use firearms have to compensate for it providing a weapon from the get-go.
In the case of other weapons, their cost is low enough to buy them with starting wealth without difficulty.
On the other hand the Gunsmithing bonus feat to ease the production of ammo can be converted in a bonus Skill Focus[Craft(Crossbows)] or a bonus to the skill equal to the class level (or half) On the note of 'needing a gun at level 1': Why doesn't the Picaroon, which needs a gun at level 1 to use class features, have Gunsmithing? I feel like something's... up, in general, with ACG's archetype templating. Like, something seems to have just escaped everyone's notice there.
Jill Kirchoff wrote: Entryhazard wrote: Torbyne wrote: Regarding the remaining firearm proficiency and gunsmithing feat, what seems the best or most likely swap outs? All crossbows seems the best fit for proficiencies and maybe rapid reload for gunsmith? A crossbow of choice or even master work crossbow would be awesome instead of a battered firearm but seems very unlikely. The battered firearm as a class feature is there because the really high cost of a firearm make it impossible for a character at level 1 to afford a firearm with his starting wealth, and the classes designed to use firearms have to compensate for it providing a weapon from the get-go.
In the case of other weapons, their cost is low enough to buy them with starting wealth without difficulty.
On the other hand the Gunsmithing bonus feat to ease the production of ammo can be converted in a bonus Skill Focus[Craft(Crossbows)] or a bonus to the skill equal to the class level (or half) On the note of 'needing a gun at level 1': Why doesn't the Picaroon, which needs a gun at level 1 to use class features, have Gunsmithing? I feel like something's... up, in general, with ACG's archetype templating. Like, something seems to have just escaped everyone's notice there. I am falling into the "should have gone through another round of editing" camp the more i read the book... but maybe they expected you to start off Gunslinger and then go Picaroon? Or that the archetype would only be used in campaigns taking place in a later era when firearms are more common?
In fairness, Picaroon has a lot of other issues too: It's TWF based but nothing alters the core swashbuckler damage booster that prevents you from TWF.. or that a lot of its deeds don't replace the mandatory feats related to them (the anti AoO feat only works on one attack per round, the reload feat only works on one barrel once per round and both of them burn panachey) so you just end up losing the stuff they replace for nothing.
How does the Picaroon reload with a sword in his other hand?
He doesnt, thats a problem
I havent gone in depth on the Pizaroon yet, are they supposed to continue to load and fire a pistol while in melee? For some reason i thought they were supposed to be a black powder switch hitter, pistols when closing or when they cant close and then switch to blades.
Zwordsman wrote: I think the mechanics support the text.. There were already a few ways to get firing without provoking aoo (snap shot, and i think 1 or 2 others but they slip my mind. close quarters thrower is thrown only I hink as well but there were others). So they were referring to the reloading issue (as without either feats/abilities, you would provoke firing, then reloading)
Point blank master is painfully painfully hard to get for sure.. Such a shame for any non full BAB class.
IMO if you have to get more feats (at least, feats NOT already required as prerequisites) in order to achieve the effect suggested in the flavor text, then the feat's mechanics do NOT support the text. It doesn't say "you can reload with near impunity in the midst of melee combat", it says you can fire without fear of reprisal in melee-- which it doesn't in fact support.
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