Guide to PACG Organized Play - questions thread


Pathfinder Adventure Card Society

101 to 150 of 285 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant

Doh, yeah... I wasn't thinking, I didn't scroll down. That's what I get for posting before caffine. :)


ryric wrote:
Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
I don't have the class decks, but I would think that cards like Robe of Vision and Blackcloth Armor don't require Light Armor Proficiency.

That may very well be true. I would still think that armor would be a low priority upgrade choice for a wizard player.

If you think cloth armor is "a terrible card to have in your deck" then upgrading it will become a higher priority. Let's at least wait until we see what the new armor does before we jump to conclusions about how awful it is. The name Robe of Vision suggests an armor card that has a scouting effect, which sounds potentially quite useful.

edit: and if you insist on thinking that armor is just awful for a wizard deck, then you have a very simple solution. Don't play Darago. None of the other wizards require you to use armor cards.


I do want ask some more things. Sorry for the wall of text.

1) Loot Rewards. In organized play it seams like the design is following a paradigm where you build from your deck from your class deck pack only so If there is a scenario with loot rewards would you:
a) strip the reward from the scenario
b) strip the loot cards from the base set your using to hand them out to the character in organized play (this seams highly unlikely for a number of reasons)
c) grant access to purchase and play with the loot cards in organized play for one person at the table per loot card
d) grant access to purchase and play with the loot cards in organized play for every person at the table per loot card
e) have some other double secret, super awesome solution you'll be revealing when we get there :)

2) Timing of the "after you play a 'X'". I.E. does "is being played" vs "has been played" matter. So resolve one thing before going on to the next. You have an encounter play cards for effect roll for the check on the encounter then roll each recharge check. When does after you play come in:
a) when you Reveal/Display/Discard (before the encounter check)
b) when the card has had its primary effect (after the encounter or at end of turn in some cases {cloud spells for example} before the recharge check)
c) After the card is fully resolved and the recharge is successful or not.
d) some other phrasing timing I'm not thinking of.

2b) Radillo power with the "or add it to your hand" checkbox. This seams rather powerful and allows, in any of the answer I can think of for question 2, Detect Magic and Augury (when you hit recharge +7) to be spam cast to sort up and check to acquire magical boons and blessings (in the process probably revealing the rest of the location deck). While some look ahead is a fun addition that allows the party to better deal with whats coming up. This is obviously another excessive example. (This problem occurs and has been mentioned with Erzen before with the stipulation that he has to be mostly dead to pull it off Radillo does is better by removing the mostly dead restriction though she does need a few more skill feats to hit the recharge every time.)

3) I'm sure you've answered this before but I can't find it easily so if you wouldn't mind clarifying again; When you play a spell that adds a die and a trait to a check (say toxic cloud to add dice and the poison trait to an attack) Does the trait get added to all dice in the check or just the bonus dice from the spell. It doesn't seam like the undead should suddenly become immune to getting cleaved in half by a great-axe wielding barbarian because the mage decided it was a good idea to fill the room with noxious gasses.

3b) In the same vein playing a spell at when encountering a bane and stacking those up through multiple explores in a round also seams sometimes greatly powerful. Did you mean for the cloud spells to be counted as the spell that the owner can play into that check for the checks where they matter? or all checks for the round for that matter? The community replies seam to be going with a no, go ahead and stack them up and play your Swipes on the checks too approach.

Venture-Lieutenant, Online—ACG aka Hawkmoon269

1. For loot rewards, the scenarios for Organized Play are made specifically for organized play, so they will just avoid having loot rewards. (If they wanted something similar a reward could be "Any card from you class deck with an adventure deck number of 3" or something like that.)

Your other two questions aren't really about organized play specifically but...

2. You play the card when you reveal, display, recharge, discard, bury or banish the card to activate the power on the card. So a recharge check on a spell is not playing the card. So you'd do "after you play" things after you activate the powers on the card but before you attempt the recharge check.

S&S Rulebook p10 wrote:
Playing a card means using a power on that card by revealing, displaying, discarding, recharging, burying, or banishing that card or by performing another action specified by that card. If a power says using it counts as playing a boon, it counts as playing a card. Doing something with a card that does not use a power on that card does not count as playing that card.

I'm pretty sure the "Ezren can make the decks be whatever he wants" thing is only possible by not playing by the rules. Ezren will draw the top card from his deck before he attempts to recharge the card he played, so he'll never get to redraw the exact same card again. Likewise Radillo will draw before the recharge check, so she'll never get to draw the exact card she played. So...

-Ezren plays Augury. While he' playing it and awaiting the recharge, the card is neither in his hand, nor his discard pile, nor his character deck.
-He examines the top 3 cards of the location and does his thing.
-He examine the top card of his deck and may or may not add it to his hand.
-He attempts the check to recharge Augury.

And likewise...
-Radillo plays Augury. While she' playing it and awaiting the recharge, the card is neither in her hand, nor her discard pile, nor her character deck.
-She examines the top 3 cards of the location and does her thing.
-She examine the bottom card of her deck and may or may not put it on top or add it to her hand.
-She attempts the check to recharge Augury.

3. Once you assemble the dice, you never have to keep straight whether certain dice have certain traits. So Toxic Cloud essentially gives the entire check the Poison trait. But, immunity rules prevent you from even adding those dice.

S&S Rulebook p10 wrote:
If the card you’re encountering states that it is immune to a particular trait, players may not play cards with the specified trait, use powers that would add that trait to the check, or roll dice with that trait during the encounter.

So if a character is encountering a monster that is immune to poison either:

a. Ezren wants to play Toxic Cloud, but can't because it would add the Poison trait to the check.
b. Ezren played Toxic Cloud earlier. But no one gets the dice added via Toxic Cloud because you can't roll dice with that trait.

3b. You can't stack multiple explores earned during any single exploration.

S&S Rulebook p9 wrote:
However, during a single exploration, no matter how many different effects allow you to explore again, treat them as granting one additional exploration, not a series of additional explorations.


Hawkmoon269 wrote:


22. You play the card when you reveal, display, recharge, discard, bury or banish the card to activate the power on the card. So a recharge check on a spell is not playing the card. So you'd do "after you play" things after you activate the powers on the card but before you attempt the recharge check.

S&S Rulebook p10 wrote:
Playing a card means using a power on that card by revealing, displaying, discarding, recharging, burying, or banishing that card or by performing another action specified by that card. If a power says using it counts as playing a boon, it counts as playing a card. Doing something with a card that does not use a power on that card does not count as playing that card.
I'm pretty sure the "Ezren can make the decks be whatever he wants" thing is only possible by not playing by the rules. Ezren will draw the top card from his deck before he attempts to recharge the card he played, so he'll never get to redraw the exact same card again. Likewise Radillo will draw before the recharge check, so she'll never get to draw the exact card she played. So...

-Ezren plays Augury. While he' playing it and awaiting the recharge, the card is neither in his hand, nor his discard pile, nor his character deck.
-He examines the top 3 cards of the location and does his thing.
-He examine the top card of his deck and may or may not add it to his hand.
-He attempts the check to recharge Augury.

And likewise...
-Radillo plays Augury. While she' playing it and awaiting the recharge, the card is neither in her hand, nor her discard pile, nor her character deck.
-She examines the top 3 cards of the location and does her thing.
-She examine the bottom card of her deck and may or may not put it on top or add it to her hand.
-She attempts the check to recharge Augury.

I think you missed the point of the Radillo question. Imagine the following situation. It assumes you can automatically make a recharge check of 7, which may not happen until midway through the AP, but will happen.

1. Radillo Cast Augury, peaks at the bottom of the deck (taking it if it is a spell), then successfully recharges the Augury.
2. Radillo Casts Detect Magic, peaks at the bottom of the deck and returns Augury to hand, then recharges detect magic.
3. Since the bottom card is now detect magic, return to step 1 and repeat until you empty the location of magic magical boons.

Am I missing something that would prevent you from doing this?

Venture-Agent, New Mexico—Alamogordo aka pluvia33

Just to emphasize what Hawkmoon said about Loot in OP, when playing with the organized play system you do not play any of the base S&S scenarios so its Loot cards would never come into play. The only kind of Loot I can see as being made a reward in OP scenarios would be Support type cards that doesn't actually go into your deck and can easily be printed out from the scenario PDF.

Venture-Lieutenant, Online—ACG aka Hawkmoon269

I did miss that a bit. I don't see what would stop you from doing that other then boredom and your fellow players being angry with you. Radillo would potentially have to repeat it quite a bit to get all those Magic trait cards on top. Say...

1. Radillo plays Augury and says "items" and she find 2 items in the top 3 cards, only 1 of which has the Magic trait. She shuffles the non-item back into the location deck, puts the Magic trait item on top followed by the non-Magic item.
2. Radillo recharged Augury.
3. Radillo plays detect Magic and encounters the Magic item. She acquires it.
4. Radillo adds Augury back to her hand.
5. Radillo recharges Detect Magic.
6. Radillo plays Augury, this time says "weapons" and finds 1 weapon in the top 3 cards. It has the Magic trait. She shuffles the rest back in, and puts the weapon on top.
7. Radillo recharges Augury.
8. Radillo adds Detect Magic back to her hand.
9. Radillo plays Detect Magic and encounters the weapon. She fails to to acquire the weapon because she has d6 Strength.
10. Valeros curses at Radillo.
100. Radillo continues the cycle, acquiring some cards and banishing others.

So, a couple things will break the cycle.

A. If there are no magic cards or cards of that type in the top 3 when she plays Augury. She can put the non-Magic cards on the bottom of the location deck, but she'll be playing Detect Magic blind. Granted, she can repeat still, but eventually she'll probably give up after 5 or 6 cycles with no magic to detect.

B. Other players ask you to stop getting rid of all the good boons.

But in general, I think you can do it. You'll have to keep Detect Magic in her deck long term. And once you have a turn where you play another spell, the cycle is broken.

Also, Radillo looks designed to tempt you to get yourself killed. She has more powers to encourage you to draw a card, bury a card, and banish a card than anyone I've seen so far. All those things thin out your character deck which pushes you near death, especially with a relatively large hand size.

Just my thoughts.


I think this combination requires more discussion. Rather than side tracking this thread, I will start a new one to discuss this combo.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Joshua Birk 898 wrote:

If you think cloth armor is "a terrible card to have in your deck" then upgrading it will become a higher priority. Let's at least wait until we see what the new armor does before we jump to conclusions about how awful it is. The name Robe of Vision suggests an armor card that has a scouting effect, which sounds potentially quite useful.

edit: and if you insist on thinking that armor is just awful for a wizard deck, then you have a very simple solution. Don't play Darago. None of the other wizards require you to use armor cards.

Cloth Armor is strictly worse than Leather when played from your hand, but has an extra benefit when you acquire it; thus it's great to find during play but poor to have just sitting in your deck. I didn't say it was a bad card, I said it was bad to have in your deck. I can see how that distinction may not have come through and I apologize for any misunderstanding. (I do have the class decks from Gen Con, so I can see the card text; sometimes I forget not everyone has seen the new cards yet).

I don't intend to play Durago, but my girlfriend does so I have a bit of an interest in how strategy works for him.


Oh, i agree it is a bad card, i just think that if it is a bad card, upgrading it becomes a priority, and it looks like wizards may have a couple of interesting upgrade options for armors that don't require proficiency.

Grand Lodge Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Lancaster aka Theryon Stormrune

1 person marked this as a favorite.

ryric, as you probably saw, Tanis stated here that both Darago and Flenta don't have enough B cards to build their decks (initially).

So the rule (to be known as Tanis' Common Sense) is that:

Basic trait cards from Set B > Non-Basic trait cards from Set B > Basic trait cards from Set 1 > Non-Basic trait cards from Set 1 et cetera ad nauseam.

;-)

The Exchange

WilliamD763 wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Contact mike.brock@paizo.com. Make sure he knows you've already tried your VC (and please let him know how you tried to contact that VC so he can troubleshoot).

I'm having essentially no luck with the VC route, but it doesn't appear to be my VC's fault. I've been e-mailing him every couple of weeks for 2 months now and he replies promptly every time, but the status is still the same -- he is waiting for a reply from Mike and will e-mail him again.

I also had trouble receiving a reply from Mike Brock back when you first suggested that we e-mail him about this. I never got a reply to my first or second e-mail to Mike even though he was very diligent in replying to all of them. Finally after a couple posts here, he resent e-mails and I got it (and yes I checked my SPAM filter and the issue isn't obviously on my end). So my concern is that there may be an unknown issue with outgoing e-mail from Mike. Is there a non-email way to get in touch and get this moving? I'll send e-mail to Mike in any case.

Similar issue here... asked here, was sent to Brock. Emailed Brock, got the general email back that many people did. Spoke to our VL (we have no VC in Portland) and he sent an email with my info to Brock. I think we are a go for some sort of PACG OP events with at least 3 local shops signed on as retailers and 2 or 3 more interested in game nights, but as far as I know, our VL hasn't heard back anything from Paizo.

On the up side, with a probable delay for the start of OP we have some more time for things to get ironed out.

Worst case scenario, I love the game and will simply run OP unsupported with my own core and character sets and month-later-purchased PDFs if necessary.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Theryon Stormrune wrote:

ryric, as you probably saw, Tanis stated here that both Darago and Flenta don't have enough B cards to build their decks (initially).

So the rule (to be known as Tanis' Common Sense) is that:

Basic trait cards from Set B > Non-Basic trait cards from Set B > Basic trait cards from Set 1 > Non-Basic trait cards from Set 1 et cetera ad nauseam.

;-)

That common sense rule was exactly what we did at Gen Con. I just wanted to post the issue here in this thread so as to make sure it gets into the FAQ/guide.

Grand Lodge

pluvia33 wrote:
Just to emphasize what Hawkmoon said about Loot in OP, when playing with the organized play system you do not play any of the base S&S scenarios so its Loot cards would never come into play. The only kind of Loot I can see as being made a reward in OP scenarios would be Support type cards that doesn't actually go into your deck and can easily be printed out from the scenario PDF.

Actually, Pluvia and Hawk, one of the scenario rewards in OP Adventure 1 is access to the "1" Loot cards.

I don't have access to the actual wording, but IIRC, you can substitute the Loot cards in for Boons of their type when a Scenario is set up. They can then be used if acquired for the duration of the Scenario, and used to grant an upgrade like any other card of that type coming out of the box.

Venture-Lieutenant, Online—ACG aka Hawkmoon269

Yeah. I think I misunderstood his question. I thought he was saying "what if the scenario rewards you with a loot card from S&S" as in "you are playing the regular S&S scenarios in OP". I know they had said earlier their was a mechanism for loot. So, take my answer to mean "You won't get loot the same way you get loot in S&S."

Venture-Agent, New Mexico—Alamogordo aka pluvia33

Huh, I'm interested to see the exact wording of that reward when my store gets the PDFs. But the from what you explained, it looks like you temporarily gain access to the Loot cards from whatever copy of the base set the group is playing on for just one scenario. You don't have to own the base set to get the Loot card yourself since it isn't a permanent upgrade. So since the Loot cards are all coming from the same set, the entire party (if multiple people have gained this reward to use in this scenario) must decide who gets which "1" Loot card (are there at least 6 Loot cards in Adventure 1?). Then at the end of this scenario, as long as a Loot card wasn't banished or otherwise lost during the game, it is available as a 1-type card upgrade of the appropriate type as normal to someone in the party? Seems pretty interesting if I'm understanding it correctly and works just fine as long as gaining the Loot card is on a temporary bases. Thanks for sharing.

Grand Lodge

Nope, you only need to have one player using a character who has the reward.
There are two Loots in the base set: Besmara's Tricorn (Item) and Vindictive Harpoon (Weapon).
Without access to the actual wording, my recollection is that you get to shuffle these cards into the deck of their respective type when you are setting up the locations.
Other than that, I think you have it correct.

Grand Lodge

People have probably seen that v1.1 of the Organized Play has been released (the email I got said to go here.

Seems some of the corrections that had been planned based on Vic's comments in this thread didn't make it in, so perhaps there will be a v1.2 coming?

Sovereign Court

The email mentioned demo play rewards, but I don't see anything like that.

Grand Lodge

I like the new Chronicle sheet, which is better-formatted to allow for replays of the same scenario.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Doug Maynard wrote:

People have probably seen that v1.1 of the Organized Play has been released (the email I got said to go here.

Seems some of the corrections that had been planned based on Vic's comments in this thread didn't make it in, so perhaps there will be a v1.2 coming?

D'oh! Which were you thinking of?

Grand Lodge

Vic Wertz wrote:
Doug Maynard wrote:

People have probably seen that v1.1 of the Organized Play has been released (the email I got said to go here.

Seems some of the corrections that had been planned based on Vic's comments in this thread didn't make it in, so perhaps there will be a v1.2 coming?

D'oh! Which were you thinking of?

I haven't gone through the whole document carefully, but it appears that this one and this one haven't made it into the new version.


Andrew K wrote:
The email mentioned demo play rewards, but I don't see anything like that.

They are there. You get a card upgrade coupon if you play a demo.

I'm disappointed by two things in the update:

* end of session example doesn't cover details that needed to be discussed here (untrading, replacement of banished cards)

* the method for distributing upgrades hasn't changed; it is still underspecified (what happens if there are multiple conflicts at the same time), unfair to naive players (putting your most-wanted card at the top of your list isn't always a good idea) and needlessly complex (rolling for draft order is fast, completely fair and simple to describe)

Sovereign Court

I'd say ties just go at the same time, there's really no other logical option.

It's not very complex. Everyone picks their desired card. Ties roll off. Rinse repeat (only the person who lost a roll will really be picking a new card).

I really don't think your point about naive players really is a problem. It isn't up to Paizo to change things because people might not strategize right. Your option of initiative order really isn't any more or less fair. It just means more dice rolls, nothing more.

Untrading is covered. Cards you gave away go back to your deck, unless it got banished, then it goes back to your box and you have to find a way to get it back.

Can someone tell me where the demo upgrade piece is (just a page)? I must be blind because I can't find it for the life of me!!


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Demo reward is covered on page 5

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

mlvanbie wrote:
* end of session example doesn't cover details that needed to be discussed here (untrading, replacement of banished cards)

"Untrading": "Cards traded during play should be returned to the loaning player’s deck or the box as normal when the game is over."

Replacement of banished cards: "After upgrading your deck, when rebuilding the rest of your character deck, choose extra cards, if needed, from your Class Deck. Use the Starting Character rules, which are similar to the standard game rules." And the Starting Character rules say this: "If you do not have enough such cards to finish building your deck, you may then add cards with the B set indicator that do not have the Basic trait. If you run out of cards with the B set indicator, use set 1 cards by the same guidelines."

mlvanbie wrote:
* the method for distributing upgrades hasn't changed; it is still underspecified (what happens if there are multiple conflicts at the same time), unfair to naive players (putting your most-wanted card at the top of your list isn't always a good idea) and needlessly complex (rolling for draft order is fast, completely fair and simple to describe)

This is the method we are using for Season 0. We used it at Gen Con, and we think it works fine. The Nobel Prize committee thinks it works pretty good, too.

And if there are multiple conflicts, this bit applies: "If any card is announced by multiple players, each player who announced that card rolls a d12. The player who rolls highest does nothing; the other players who rolled must cross the contested card off their lists." Just do that for each contested card.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Doug Maynard wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Doug Maynard wrote:

People have probably seen that v1.1 of the Organized Play has been released (the email I got said to go here.

Seems some of the corrections that had been planned based on Vic's comments in this thread didn't make it in, so perhaps there will be a v1.2 coming?

D'oh! Which were you thinking of?
I haven't gone through the whole document carefully, but it appears that this one and this one haven't made it into the new version.

Sigh. You're correct. We'll get those in next week. Let me know if you spot anything else.

Sovereign Court

nondeskript wrote:
Demo reward is covered on page 5

You mean the entire paragraph about playing a demo before starting OP, under the obvious section of Getting Started? Yea that totally just randomly appeared in my guide and ibswear I didn't miss it :)

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Tampa aka MattCaulder

So, I see the rules about gaining the card upgrade "coupon" but I don't see any such coupon in the guide. Is it up to us to issue/police them?

4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—St. Paul aka panpear

I have the same question as MattCaulder there about the demo rewards, as I've been tasked with getting the card game up and going here in Minnesota. :)

Also, I've already run some demo games with Rise of the Runelords to teach the basics of the game; can I retroactively give demo game rewards or should that not officially take place until after September 3rd?

Some more questions about chronicles and scenarios: Scenarios can either be purchased or provided by the store? I presume they tell you how to set up the game. But where do we get chronicle sheets to hand out to players? Would it be possible for a player to fill out this season's chronicle sheet and need another one? Is this something coordinators need to provide or would players be able to grab their own chronicle sheets as well?

This thread has been very helpful to read through. I'm getting more confident about the start of this card game season, though I think I need to read through the guide a couple more time. :)

Venture-Lieutenant, Online—ACG aka Hawkmoon269

I think the coupon thing might be an option just specifically for retailers. I know there was supposed to be a retailer kit being sent out. Not sure if it was in that or not. I'll see if I can scrounge that post up from Vic.

EDIT: Ok. Here is where Vic said there was a retail kit. No mention of the coupon or anything that I see.

The coupon is really a way to get people to check out the base set and consider buying it for themselves. It is a way, I think, for Paizo to help retailer maybe sell an additional product or two.

Grand Lodge Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Lancaster aka Theryon Stormrune

That's what I read into it (the coupon) as well ... as a way to get players who are just playing with Class Decks to buy the base and other products if they like the game.

You have to realize that the Organized Play and everything involved with it is not set in concrete. They're still editting the guide. They're still trying to figure out when it will start based on product getting to stores. They're still trying to figure out the organizationl structure. All this on top of just trying to get Skull & Shackles out the door ... with a few stumbles.

4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—St. Paul aka panpear

Hawkmoon269 wrote:

I think the coupon thing might be an option just specifically for retailers. I know there was supposed to be a retailer kit being sent out. Not sure if it was in that or not. I'll see if I can scrounge that post up from Vic.

EDIT: Ok. Here is where Vic said there was a retail kit. No mention of the coupon or anything that I see.

The coupon is really a way to get people to check out the base set and consider buying it for themselves. It is a way, I think, for Paizo to help retailer maybe sell an additional product or two.

Yeah - the last Demo I ran the store let me see their retailer kit they had got, since he had asked if I wanted to hand out the promo cards (I declined; makes sense to hand them out when we kickoff organized play for realz). It pretty much had just the promo cards in it. So I presume the coupons from the Demo might be something organizers and/or stores get access to?

But while I think the organized play in general can help drive interest in the game in general, the 'coupon' in this case is more focused on organized play, for a freebie upgrade because you were learning to play. Right?

Venture-Lieutenant, Online—ACG aka Hawkmoon269

panpear wrote:
But while I think the organized play in general can help drive interest in the game in general, the 'coupon' in this case is more focused on organized play, for a freebie upgrade because you were learning to play. Right?

Yes, but to get it you have to try Skull and Shackles. And if you try Skull and Shackles, you might like Skull and Shackles. And if you like Skull and Shackles you might buy Skull and Shackles.

The idea is, you are already there to play the OP. You own a class deck. Do you own Skull and Shackles? Why not try it out? You might like it. And hey, if you try it out you can upgrade your OP character, which is something you would want to do anyway.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

3 people marked this as a favorite.
MattCaulder wrote:
So, I see the rules about gaining the card upgrade "coupon" but I don't see any such coupon in the guide. Is it up to us to issue/police them?

We'll be creating a PDF package that explains how to create and run the demo using a S&S Base Set. That PDF will include the coupon.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

panpear wrote:

I have the same question as MattCaulder there about the demo rewards, as I've been tasked with getting the card game up and going here in Minnesota. :)

Also, I've already run some demo games with Rise of the Runelords to teach the basics of the game; can I retroactively give demo game rewards or should that not officially take place until after September 3rd?

Some more questions about chronicles and scenarios: Scenarios can either be purchased or provided by the store? I presume they tell you how to set up the game. But where do we get chronicle sheets to hand out to players? Would it be possible for a player to fill out this season's chronicle sheet and need another one? Is this something coordinators need to provide or would players be able to grab their own chronicle sheets as well?

This thread has been very helpful to read through. I'm getting more confident about the start of this card game season, though I think I need to read through the guide a couple more time. :)

I'm fine with retroactive demo rewards.

Chronicle sheets are provided with the scenarios.

1/5

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
Sigh. You're correct. We'll get those in next week. Let me know if you spot anything else.

I'd strongly recommend switching out Lem's rapier for the light crossbow in the suggested Bard deck, since it's expected that it will be used by CD Lem, not S&S Lem.


Vic Wertz wrote:
mlvanbie wrote:
* end of session example doesn't cover details that needed to be discussed here (untrading, replacement of banished cards)
"Untrading": "Cards traded during play should be returned to the loaning player’s deck or the box as normal when the game is over."

This is in the 'Setting up' section, presumably because the main rules allow you to trade cards at the start of a scenario, which is now banned. This doesn't seem like a good place for instructions about the end of a scenario.

Vic Wertz wrote:
mlvanbie wrote:
* the method for distributing upgrades hasn't changed; it is still underspecified (what happens if there are multiple conflicts at the same time), unfair to naive players (putting your most-wanted card at the top of your list isn't always a good idea) and needlessly complex (rolling for draft order is fast, completely fair and simple to describe)

This is the method we are using for Season 0. We used it at Gen Con, and we think it works fine. The Nobel Prize committee thinks it works pretty good, too.

And if there are multiple conflicts, this bit applies: "If any card is announced by multiple players, each player who announced that card rolls a d12. The player who rolls highest does nothing; the other players who rolled must cross the contested card off their lists." Just do that for each contested card.

That doesn't actually say what to do for multiple cards because it says 'any card .. the contested card'. If A and B are contested at the same time, different things happen if you resolved these simultaneously or pick one to resolve.

Summary of the prize-winning research.

You broke incentive-compatibility in the Gale-Shapley algorithm for two-sided acceptance of offers by using iterative randomization to see which player the cards prefer. If each card had a randomly ordered list of player preferences (not known to the players when they wrote down preferences) then you could have a non-broken Gale-Shapley algorithm. The simplest way to do this is to give all cards the same preference list of players, say by rolling dice or shuffling the token cards. At that point the algorithm is effectively the same as the one that I proposed.

The procedure you provided has a Nash equilibrium with a randomized strategy (recall that defecting from picking the best card was a good idea, but if everyone did it then there would be no advantage). Since there is unlikely to be more than one player who can calculate the Nash equilibrium, it is better to just out-think the other players.

If these are the Season 0 rules, so be it. My point is that you can remove half a page of text from the rules while having a better algorithm that is faster to execute (shuffle token cards, each player picks an upgrade in card order).

Grand Lodge Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Lancaster aka Theryon Stormrune

1 person marked this as a favorite.
mlvanbie wrote:
This is in the 'Setting up' section, presumably because the main rules allow you to trade cards at the start of a scenario, which is now banned. This doesn't seem like a good place for instructions about the end of a scenario.

I think you're confusing regular play and organized play. Trading is always allowed prior to playing the scenario during the start-up for regular play. It is not at the end (never was). For Organized Play, decks are more stringent and trading is not allowed. However "Un-trading" is required to get your cards back into your deck before rebuilding.

mlvanbie wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
mlvanbie wrote:
* the method for distributing upgrades hasn't changed; it is still underspecified (what happens if there are multiple conflicts at the same time), unfair to naive players (putting your most-wanted card at the top of your list isn't always a good idea) and needlessly complex (rolling for draft order is fast, completely fair and simple to describe)

This is the method we are using for Season 0. We used it at Gen Con, and we think it works fine. The Nobel Prize committee thinks it works pretty good, too.

And if there are multiple conflicts, this bit applies: "If any card is announced by multiple players, each player who announced that card rolls a d12. The player who rolls highest does nothing; the other players who rolled must cross the contested card off their lists." Just do that for each contested card.

That doesn't actually say what to do for multiple cards because it says 'any card .. the contested card'. If A and B are contested at the same time, different things happen if you resolved these simultaneously or pick one to resolve.

Summary of the prize-winning research.

You broke incentive-compatibility in the Gale-Shapley algorithm for two-sided acceptance of offers by using iterative randomization to see which player the...

Why do people have to over-complicate things? The two methods in the rulebook work just fine. We used both during GenCon ... in fact we used a variation. First session, we discussed what we wanted and there were no rolls. Second session, cards were contested so there was a roll off. The dice decided. Third session, the same thing. Never wrote down a list. We discussed what our choices were and when two people wanted the same, we rolled. This is a cooperative game. If you get into a situation where you need to apply the methods you're talking about in order to be "fair" then you're probably not going to have people want to play with each other. Gotta work together.


Theryon Stormrune wrote:
mlvanbie wrote:
This is in the 'Setting up' section, presumably because the main rules allow you to trade cards at the start of a scenario, which is now banned. This doesn't seem like a good place for instructions about the end of a scenario.
I think you're confusing regular play and organized play. Trading is always allowed prior to playing the scenario during the start-up for regular play. It is not at the end (never was). For Organized Play, decks are more stringent and trading is not allowed. However "Un-trading" is required to get your cards back into your deck before rebuilding.

We are talking about giving cards back to their owners in OP, which happens at the end of a scenario. Trading does happen at the end of the scenario in the regular rules:

Regular S&S rules wrote:

After each scenario, you must rebuild your character deck. Start by

combining your discard pile with your hand, your character deck,
any cards you buried under your character card, and any cards you
displayed; you may then freely trade cards with other players.
Theryon Stormrune wrote:
The two methods in the rulebook work just fine. We used both during GenCon ... in fact we used a variation. First session, we discussed what we wanted and there were no rolls. Second session, cards were contested so there was a roll off. The dice decided. Third session, the same thing. Never wrote down a list. We discussed what our choices were and when two people wanted the same, we rolled.

So you used Obey the Social Contract three times. What does that have to say about Obey the Process?

Theryon Stormrune wrote:
Why do people have to over-complicate things?

Compare

mlvanbie wrote:
shuffle token cards, each player picks an upgrade in card order

with

OP Rules wrote:

Method Two: Obey the Process

Each player makes a list of the available cards in her own
order of preference. Include the set indicator with each
card name.

All players announce the top card on their list. If no
two players announced the same card, all players take the
cards they announced and perform their deck upgrades.

If any card is announced by multiple players, each
player who announced that card rolls a d12. The player
who rolls highest does nothing; the other players who
rolled must cross the contested card off their lists. Repeat
the process, beginning with all players announcing the
top card on their lists, until no two players announce the
same card.

Regardless of the method used, after upgrading decks,
each player must ensure that the cards
in his character deck conform to the
quantities specified in the Cards
List on the back of his character
card, filling any missing
spots from his Class Deck
box with appropriate
cards that have the
Basic trait.

Example:

Chris, Corey, Pat, and Taylor have just completed The
Treasure of Jemma Redclaw. They pool the cards they
gained during play and learn that they have a Falcata
+1, a set 1 weapon; Fire Lance, a set B weapon;
Boatswain, a set B ally; and Blessing of Cayden
Cailean, a set 1 blessing as available upgrades. They
have decided to Obey the Process, so each person
compiles a preference list.

Chris announces that her top card is Boatswain.
Corey and Taylor both announce Falcata +1, and Pat
announces Blessing of Cayden Cailean. Since Corey
and Taylor announced the same card, they each roll a
d12, and Taylor wins with a result of 7. Corey crosses
Falcata +1 off his list and the process begins again.

Chris, Taylor, and Pat’s lists haven’t changed, so they
announce the same cards as before. This time, though,
Corey announces the next card on her list: Blessing of
Cayden Cailean—the same card that Pat announced.
Pat and Corey roll off, and this time Corey’s the victor.
Pat crosses Blessing of Cayden Cailean off his list, and
they repeat the process.

Taylor still has Falcata +1 at the top of his list,
Chris still has Boatswain, and Corey still has
Blessing of Cayden Cailean. The new top card
of Pat’s list is Fire Lance, a set B weapon. (Pat
doesn’t have any unused set 1 weapons he wants to
use in his Class Deck box, so Fire Lance is just as good
as Falcata +1 to him.) Since each character announced
a different card, they each take those cards.

Sovereign Court

Actually if you read his post, he did Social Contract once and Process twice. They just didn't physically make a list. They all said what they wanted, and rolled off ties. That's what Obey the Process is. They all had a mental list, they knew what card they would take if they lost their roll.

Don't try and show that your mini-sentence method is better just because it's short. First off, you didn't explain how "card order" is determined when you compared it to Paizo's long description. Second, you included in Paizo's their example of how it would work. Third, they put a lot of stuff in there that is just clarification that 99% of people won't need to understand how it works.

Quit trying to compare yours with Paizo's without even making them equal first. It weakens your argument when you make dishonest comparisons to make a point.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Andrew K wrote:

Actually if you read his post, he did Social Contract once and Process twice. They just didn't physically make a list. They all said what they wanted, and rolled off ties. That's what Obey the Process is. They all had a mental list, they knew what card they would take if they lost their roll.

Actually they didn't truly follow the Process. A 'mental' list opens up the door to gaming the process. To truly follow the Process, a written list is required.

Grand Lodge Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Lancaster aka Theryon Stormrune

I stopped myself from posting a reply because if people end up being jerks about upgrades then you'll be hardpressed to find people to play with. It's a cooperative game. The process works.


Andrew K wrote:
Actually if you read his post, he did Social Contract once and Process twice. They just didn't physically make a list. They all said what they wanted, and rolled off ties. That's what Obey the Process is. They all had a mental list, they knew what card they would take if they lost their roll.

The Obey the Social Contract says to roll off in case of disagreements, so they did that three times. Incidentally, mental lists are even more exploitable.

Andrew K wrote:
Don't try and show that your mini-sentence method is better just because it's short. First off, you didn't explain how "card order" is determined when you compared it to Paizo's long description.

That was 'token card order'. Perhaps I needed an extra word.

Andrew K wrote:
Second, you included in Paizo's their example of how it would work. Third, they put a lot of stuff in there that is just clarification that 99% of people won't need to understand how it works.

I included only the part of the example that pertains to Obey the Process. They didn't feel the need to have an example for the Social Contract. If you feel that picking upgrade cards in random order needs an example, it would go something like this:

Carol shuffles the token cards. The top card is Ezren, so Ezren's player picks a card (Scrying, a Spell 3). Next is Carol's Alahazarad, so she picks a card (a Spell 2).

Theryon Stormrune wrote:
I stopped myself from posting a reply because if people end up being jerks about upgrades then you'll be hardpressed to find people to play with. It's a cooperative game. The process works.

OP involves playing with people you don't know and may never see again. Obey the Process is for the case where you can't agree and everyone is going for the same boon. For that matter, if you ordered your list 'good, great, bad1, bad2', the other players would probably think that you were the nicest player at the table for giving someone else a chance to get the great boon.


Vic Wertz wrote:
This is the method we are using for Season 0. We used it at Gen Con, and we think it works fine.

Seriously... why is this discussion argument still happening after Vic's statement? There are 2 options listed in the guide now. Try them for season 0 and if there are legitimate issues, they will get resolved.

I recommend a rule that anyone who argues about what method is used gets NO reward.

Grand Lodge Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Lancaster aka Theryon Stormrune

Flat the Impaler wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
This is the method we are using for Season 0. We used it at Gen Con, and we think it works fine.

Seriously... why is this discussion argument still happening after Vic's statement? There are 2 options listed in the guide now. Try them for season 0 and if there are legitimate issues, they will get resolved.

I recommend a rule that anyone who argues about what method is used gets NO reward.

I have no idea why this is continuing. Just try the method(s) and if they don't work then you have two problems ... first, your players are being jerks and second, because they're jerks, you have to institute tighter rules for upgrades.

In both cases, while you are correct that you might not see them again, because this is hosted at local stores, there is more chance that you will.

Grand Lodge Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Lancaster aka Theryon Stormrune

Ships and Organized Play ...

I realize that ships are part of S&S. They might not exist in Wrath of the Righteous. But for now, they exist. So the question becomes this, during scenarios, will the party have the chance to acquire new ships? It states in the S&S rulebook that ships belong to the party and not the individual. So how do we denote that for future scenarios? Or will that not matter? Some ships have some nice benefits when commanding them.

1/5

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Theryon Stormrune wrote:

Ships and Organized Play ...

I realize that ships are part of S&S. They might not exist in Wrath of the Righteous. But for now, they exist. So the question becomes this, during scenarios, will the party have the chance to acquire new ships? It states in the S&S rulebook that ships belong to the party and not the individual. So how do we denote that for future scenarios? Or will that not matter? Some ships have some nice benefits when commanding them.

From what I saw at GenCon:

The scenario tells you what ship you start with. You can seize a ship as normal, I but I haven't seen ship rewards, or a way to track them on the sheets. I suspect upgrading ships won't be a part of Organized Play, since it's a group choice what ship to use, and you'll have a new group every time.

Grand Lodge Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Lancaster aka Theryon Stormrune

Yeah, I'm guessing that, too. But just wanted an official yay or nay.

Sovereign Court

Yea that's the only method that would really work 100% efficiently, although I suppose you could write down a ship you get As a reward on your chronicle sheet, and some scenarios could let you pick a ship from any the players have. You may end up with a couple options because everyone took the same ship rewards, or you could have a wide range of options.

101 to 150 of 285 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Adventure Card Society / Guide to PACG Organized Play - questions thread All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.