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Hello all, I was wondering if I could get a bit of advice as to my current
Str16, Dex14, Con14, Int7, Wis15, Cha14.
Feats:Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative
Class Features:Sermonic Performance[14/day; Inspire Courage +1, Countersong, Fascinate], Public Speaker, Single-Minded, Channel Energy 1d6[5/day], Travel Domain[+10ft Move Speed, Agile Feet 5/day]
Traits and Racial Features:Transmuter of Korada[Bull's Strength], Fate's Favored, Alter Self 1/day, Skilled[+2 Heal, Know[Planes]], Celestial Resistances[Acid5, Cold5, Elec5], Outsider[Native], Darkvision 60ft
Skills:Perform Oratory+6, Knowledge[Religion]+4, Knowledge Planes+4, Knowledge arcana+2
Attacks:
-Masterwork Longspear +6[1d8+4]
-Cestus +5[1d4+3]
-Crossbow +4[1d8, 10bolts]
Cleric Spells Prepared:[/b]
Orisons:Create Water, Spark, Detect Magic, Read Magic
1st:Longstrider[domain], Cure Light Wounds, Bless, Divine Favor
2nd:Locate Object[domain], Cure Moderate Wounds, Bulls Strength
1:Is the archetype good/worth it? I want to like it, but it I'm not sure if its worth intentionally nerfing my armor, reducing my domains, and changing spontaneous casting, along with getting less channel energy to become more Charisma-dependent.
2:Any idea for later feats? I know that at 11th level, Divine Interference is pretty much a class feature, and that Sacred Summons is nice when the Bralani Azata's show up on the summoning list at 9, but what about 5 and 7?
3:Any other thoughts/advice?
Thanks in advance!
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Can you take transmuter of korada without being a follower of korada? It may raise some eyebrows to have that trait on a cay denote cleric. Also, I think you can drop wis and cha to raise str. An 18 is easily doable with an angelkin and is a huge boost to a reach build.
From the flavor of the trait, it seems more like you are friends with a worshipper of Korada then you are one, since it does say you learned it from a follower of Korada. Its also a magic trait, and doesn't have "Follower of Korada" as a prerequisite. And it actually kind of fits my concept for this guy, as part of that is he goes around trading information with other priests about religion, because he wasn't very good at learning it in cleric school. Its why I'm keeping Knowledge[Religion] Maxed out.
For stats, hm, 18Str is tempting, but I'm concerned with Charisma getting too low, since I only have so much in the way of Bardic Performance[which will be my go-to buff, since it doesn't take up spell slots]. Maybe something more like
Str17
Dex14
Con14
Int7
Wis14
Cha14
but I'm hesitant to drop Cha and Wis below 14. Though I'm not sure, what might be a better array?
I have not tried an Evangelist myself.
I've seen 2 in PFS play. I liked having them in the group.
Of the two players, one was not at all happy with it. He was fairly emphatic that he should have either just made a bard or a regular cleric instead of something that wasn't that great at either one.
The other guy absolutely loved it.
{shrug}
I would probably not prep the cure spells. Just use the CLW wand with maybe a scroll/potion of CMW or CSW available for emergencies.
Evangelist Performance is based off Wisdom, not Charisma. It's really only needed for Channel, which is reduced on an evangelist. a 12 should be more than sufficient, although I may go 10 myself.
Would you mind providing a source for that? Unless they've changed a ruling, all Sermonic Performance says it that it functions exactly like Bardic Performance, only using your Cleric Levels instead of Bard levels to determine class abilities. In which case, Bards use their Charisma for determining the amount of rounds they can use their Bardic Performance, so an Evangelist would use Charisma for determining the amount of rounds they can use their Sermonic performance.
^Ninja'd
However I do agree with dropping Charisma and boosting strength. Your 3/4 BAB will really appreciate the extra accuracy and damage. To make up for the decreased rounds of Sermonic Performance, taking the Lingering Performance Feat will effectively triple the duration of each performance, allowing you to use it once and keep the effect for the following 3 turns.
Other feats to look out for are the summoning chain of feats. Augment Summoning (with Spell Focus Conjuration as a feat tax) beefs up your Sacred Summons, and Superior Summons throws out an extra summon each time you summon multiple critters. I'm not sure if your god has any particularly nice variant channels, but if there's a nice buff there maybe consider Selective Channel and then Quick Channel to have an extra buff option to throw on your allies/summons/yourself as a move action. Your channeling is already gimped, so why not get something more useful out of it?
I'd avoid sacred summons. I mean it's kind of nice at certain milestones, but takes a while to get there otherwise and then falls off. If you change your deity to a LE one it will be useful more often.
I'm playing a 'reach' Oracle of Life and I've been content at 14 str, but granted more is better, I also put him with more int for the skill points.
An Evangelist Cleric excels in the support role. Bless, Prayer and Inspire Courage is +4 hit, +3 damage at level 5 to your entire party. Support is either your primary role or your secondary roll. If you don't want the support role at all I'd argue that you are playing the wrong archetype.
Then you choose a second roll. If you want the whole spear reach thing then you are looking at 14+ str and weapon focus, power attack, maybe furious focus.
If you want summons then have a lower strength and things like augment summoning. I do king of wish that spell focus conjuration was decent for a cleric. It's actually pretty nice for a wizard with spells like grease, pits and walls but it's really lack luster for a divine caster.
Quick Channel is a decent feat at level 5 if you are fishing for a feat. You'll probably want Quicken Spell too at some point.
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@All, thanks for the input!
@Kydeem de'Morcaine:Glad to hear that the archetype is well appreciated. For the cure spells, I figure I might just leave those slots un-prepared and fill them on the fly. The spells I listed as prepared were mainly to compensate for a wide-variety of party compositions. I already am able to start with a wand of CLW and 2 scrolls of CMW[along with 4 different 1st-level scrolls].
@ElSilverWind:Thanks for reminding me about Lingering Performance. That will be taking the place of Improved Initiative at 3rd level, and Imp. Init. will be 5th. I'd rather keep Channel Energy as a healing ability then take a variant, since although its gimped, its still good for post-combat healing[followed by CLW wand top-off].
@Hawktitan:Wow, summoning was a lot more feat-intensive then I'd remembered[forgot about Augment Summons/Superior Summons]. I agree that Evangelist is a support archetype, which is what drew me towards it in the first place. I think I'll skip summoning altogether, and instead take Power Attack at 7. For 9, its a toss-up between Lunge and Quicken Spell. No doubt the latter is very strong, but 5th and 6th level are some of the strongest levels for clerics, so the opportunity cost is high. Lunge isn't as strong, but it will help with keeping distance from the enemy[and if used right, drawing more AoO's].
I think I'll stick with the 17Str starting out. It'll only be for 1 level, thanks to GM credits, and a positive charisma is from my experience, important. I might drop it to 12 to raise Wis a little, but I don't want to drop it below that [especially since I'll be packing at least 2 Strength-buffs, and a myriad of attack/damage buffs].
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Here is my Reach Cleric. I really enjoy the Eristal -> Growth and Feather Subdomains a well as free Long and Short bows proficiency. LG to be able to Summon Lantern and later Hound Archons is great too.
I wish I could have gone Aasimar for Aasimar Wings at 11th, but there is the problem of being immune to the Domain Enlarge Person ability.
At low levels, I used Acrobatics a lot.
Subdomains also nab you an Animal Companion as well as Barkskin and Fly as Domain Spells. Barkskin in particular is a long lasting buff that offers a bonus that Clerics lack.
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@ Black Feather: I've played that channel-specialized Evangelist Reach Cleric build for two sessions already, and it has been very effective. As one might expect. It's a bit on the obscene side, in terms of optimization, so I suggest only using it when playing with other highly optimized characters. I made this build to join an optimized party that included two Summoners (one a Synthesist & the other the more powerful vanilla build) and a (Blockbuster) Wizard.
The biggest problem I had was keeping the other PCs in the 30' flagbearer radius. This won't be a problem inside, but comes up a lot in open-field mounted battles. The team loved that +5 +5 (or more) combat bonus at 8th level. The Narrow Frame feat allows your mount to stay with you in tight underground spaces.
Readied actions are needed to make some things work to their fullest extent. E.g. "For my Standard Action I ready an action to selectively channel the Eye of Horus to harm and daze, triggered when my mount reaches THIS square[points to map location near many foes]. My turn is over, now my mount goes. My mount moves to THIS square, which triggers my readied action [resolve readied action], then my mount continues moving to this safe location." This lets your cleric emulate the effects of a selective widened dazing fireball, especially if you have a fast mount.
I've been disappointed to get almost no melee action with this PC. Everything is either dead, dazed, or surrendered before I could attack. For the same reason I've seen hardly any AoOs. I expect some tougher encounters soon, as the GM adjusts the numbers to compensate for the force-multiplier effect of this support PC.
@OP:
1:Is the archetype good/worth it? I want to like it, but it I'm not sure if its worth intentionally nerfing my armor, reducing my domains, and changing spontaneous casting, along with getting less channel energy to become more Charisma-dependent.
This depends on whether you like playing a support character.
Evangelist is a mechanically sound option on two conditions:
1. Your group includes several martial PCs
2. Your group lacks a Bard with Inspire Courage.
Re. Armor, if you take the starting trait Armor Expert you can wear a Mithril Breastplate. Your AC will be the same as if you had Medium Armor Proficiency. It's been my experience that non-tank reach combatants don't take a lot of melee damage, both because foes don't like to give up AoOs & because foes can rarely land a full attack. Thus, poor AC isn't really a problem. Your reach is a defensive gift, of the "Hmm, I think I'll go attack a less prickly target" sort. YMMV.
The inability to cast spontaneous Cure spells would hurt, if one was inclined to cast them in the first place. My evangelists typically prepare two big Cure spells for emergency use and leave a lot of open slots. If you must heal with positive channels then the Phylactery of Positive Channeling (an expensive item) will have you channeling at-level. Usually heal out of combat with consumables.
2:Any idea for later feats? I know that at 11th level, Divine Interference is pretty much a class feature, and that Sacred Summons is nice when the Bralani Azata's show up on the summoning list at 9, but what about 5 and 7?
You have 6 feats to play with in PFS play (only 5 if you're not human). Advanced martial competence (Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative) takes 3 feats. Summoning specialty requires 4 feats. Lots of other feats are great for you. You can do a lot with Quicken metamagic at 9th level. Consider Toughness, or Two Traits. You are feat starved. Just choose one or two things, besides melee combat, to be good at, and put your feats there.
3:Any other thoughts/advice?
Nope.
I don't think Summon Good Monster gives the Good subtype. A Good alignment is not the same as a subtype. The benefit to Summon Good Monster is the Diehard feat.
Coming in from diagonals does not prevent AOOs (unless it's a 5' step of course). Grick has a good summary of the history here.
Frankly, the lack of AOOs that I have experienced comes from unintelligent party members (CHARGE EVERYTHING RAAAAAA!)
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When I play, I focus on manuverabilty over outright attacking. I tend to go early and will ofter double move or acrobatics into a position over moving and attacking. I also like summoning Lanter Archons for their free Aid spell every round, allowing me to "heal" and move and attack and cast etc. Or soak up damage and prevent others from moving into some areas.
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I've played along side a reach cleric through 8 full levels of PFS.
I can count on my hands the number of extra AoOs that guy has gotten from his reach weapon. Generally from the few unintelligent enemies.
Through over half a dozen GMs we've played under, nearly every opponent avoids it, comes from the diagonal, or just does something else. They come from diagonals so much he's gotten his spiked gauntlet enchanted now.
Frankly not going through 10 feet to go from 15 to 5 is flat stupid, but it's there and GMs will use it on you with a reach build.
Ummm... no. Sean K Reynolds ruled on this here on the forums two years ago. Here's some links:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p0wf?Ending-movement-with-a-Diagonal#29
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2os3v&page=2?Reach-Weapons-I-am-Really-frea king-confused#65
So someone moving from 15 feet away to 5 feet away via diagonal movement does NOT avoid the AoO from a reach weapon user. And the Guide to Organized Play specifically says that GMs can't ignore forum rulings like this once they know about them, so I printed a copy of that to keep in with the character sheet for my reach weapon PC.
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@All:Thanks for the input, its definitely brings to light some new considerations.
@Magda:Yeah, I was planning on support, and the armor wasn't the thing I was really worried about, it was that on top of the lack of useful spontaneous casting, and a domain that was holding me up. Good to know that it isn't as crippling as it first looked. For feats, I think I'm gonna skip summoning, since its very feat-intensive. There are other paths that don't require feat-chains.
@plaidwandering:Well, the lack of AoO's might be an issue[especially with the diagonally silliness, but that isn't as much of an issue with the link provided by Hawktitan below], but that's only half of the reach weapon's advantage. The other half is the fact that I can be doing damage from behind the guy with more HP and AC then me.
@Yanos&Black Feather:Definitely some things to think about[particularly that Banner and Acrobatics], but I don't think I'll be switching my deity to Horus or Erastil[I prefer not bothering with Animal Companion rules when I can, and the Travel Domain spells and powers are pretty good IMO]. Also, I don't particularly want to use a Variant Channel. I'm not entirely sure what the exact rules are for them, but I know they still require Charisma for DCs/uses, which means that turning out-of-combat healing to a buff/heal
@Hawktitan:Thanks for the link! Unintelligent party members will be a bit of an issue, but at that point I switch tactics from "Fish for AoO's while buffing" to "Inspire Courage/Divine Favor then smack down" to match the party's tactics.
For the build, I think I'm going with
Str:17, Dex:14, Con:14, Int:7, Wis:15, Cha:12.
Feats:Combat Reflexes, Lingering Performance, .
Skills:Acrobatics+3, Knowledge Religion+4, Knowledge Planes+4, Perform Oratory +5.
awesome evangelist stuff
So what does the feat build look like for you? I've been trying to make this work for a LN Iomedae (tactics) cleric using negative rulership channeling and using the flagbearer/BOAK later in the game with a sub focus in channeling. I found that because I needed to invest in lingering performance and flagbearer in addition to selective channel I'm out of feats for summon, and the only way to channel negative is by being LN which eliminates the possibility of sacred summons I believe.
How would you suggest I structure this?
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I don't think Summon Good Monster gives the Good subtype. A Good alignment is not the same as a subtype. The benefit to Summon Good Monster is the Diehard feat.
Coming in from diagonals does not prevent AOOs (unless it's a 5' step of course). Grick has a good summary of the history here.
Frankly, the lack of AOOs that I have experienced comes from unintelligent party members (CHARGE EVERYTHING RAAAAAA!)
My reach fighter has the same problem in PFS with Combat Patrol.
Me, when I get to go first: I spend a full round action to set up a Combat Patrol so I can thump them as they approach.
Next melee type: I RUSH IN AND ENGAGE THEM WHERE THEY STAND!
Me (Immediate action): Sigh with disappointment.
Sacred Summons needs to match the alignment of your deity, not the alignment of the caster.
And the following is my opinion from a player perspective only - please don't use negative energy variant channeling with rulership. I'm not saying that because it's not effective.... because it is, overly so. I would not find it fun in a game. /PersonalOpinion
This actually drastically increases the value of Summon Good Monster, because of the later LG creatures on that list fixing the issues good priests have had with summoning.
Rulership seems fine, one round and a pretty low save so it's only impacting the mooks. I think it's fairly interesting. Also factor in that this character can't afford to invest in many (if any) feats for channeling.
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I've played along side a reach cleric through 8 full levels of PFS.
I can count on my hands the number of extra AoOs that guy has gotten from his reach weapon. Generally from the few unintelligent enemies.
Through over half a dozen GMs we've played under, nearly every opponent avoids it, comes from the diagonal, or just does something else. They come from diagonals so much he's gotten his spiked gauntlet enchanted now.
Frankly not going through 10 feet to go from 15 to 5 is flat stupid, but it's there and GMs will use it on you with a reach build.
He can't enlarge, so just has 10 feet range. Someone finally enlarged him...then nothing could approach the party without him getting some action.
Your GMs are obviously cheating as the diagonal still crosses the 10' plane that a reach weapon threatens.
SKR's post -- forum posts from devs are legal rule sources. See the organized play pdf hereThe Pathfinder Society Community
You may not simply ignore rules clarifications made
by the campaign leadership, including the campaign
coordinator and campaign developer, on the paizo.
com messageboards. GMs are not required to read every
post on the messageboards, but GMs familiar with rules
clarifications made by the campaign leadership (which
have not been superseded by the Guide to Pathfinder Society
Organized Play or FAQ) must abide by these clarifications
or rulings. If it is a significant clarification, it will be
updated in the FAQ, and later in the Guide to Pathfinder
Society Organized Play if necessary.
...
Your GMs are obviously cheating as the diagonal still crosses the 10' plane that a reach weapon threatens.
SKR's post -- forum posts from devs are legal rule sources. See the organized play pdf hereThe Pathfinder Society Community
You may not simply ignore rules clarifications made
by the campaign leadership, including the campaign
coordinator and campaign developer, on the paizo.
com messageboards. GMs are not required to read every
post on the messageboards, but GMs familiar with rules
clarifications made by the campaign leadership (which
have not been superseded by the Guide to Pathfinder Society
Organized Play or FAQ) must abide by these clarifications
or rulings. If it is a significant clarification, it will be
updated in the FAQ, and later in the Guide to Pathfinder
Society Organized Play if necessary.
I think it would be much more polite and quite probably more accurate to say the GM was mistaken. To accuse someone of cheating for getting a rule wrong means pretty much every person that plays the game is a cheater. I've never heard of any person getting every rule correct.
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Re. Getting AoOs with a reach cleric, I've seen a lot of table variation. The key is to position yourself such that if the foe avoids your AoO it's a win, and if the foe takes your AoO it's also a win. This generally works very poorly with inexperienced players, and exceptionally well with experienced players. Inexperienced players will often do something that negates reach tactics, such as rushing the foe when they should not, or moving to where they block your AoOs. I noticed that my PFS reach clerics had to really work for AoOs up through level 5, but from level 6+ the AoOs flowed freely. Players who make it to higher level PFS are generally more skilled and experienced.
Funny, I've not encountered even one PFS GM who has allowed foes to sneak in on the diagonal without taking an AoO. An informal poll in a Rules thread found that fewer than 10% of GMs allow that exploit. That's bad luck to get such a string of them!
This is an odd option but I thought I'd throw it out there...
As a unique combat option for a battle cleric, you could potentially use unarmed strikes along with a reach weapon and the absurd goodness that is brawling armor. For a relative pittance, brawling armor gives you a +2 untyped bonus to your unarmed strike attack and damage, while also making it a magical attack; with Magic Vestment you don't need to lose any AC over it. You can also potentially take Dragon Style/Ferocity, making your unarmed strikes rather dangerous, and you don't need to have a +1 first to do fun stuff with an Amulet of Mighty Fists. Either way, you have a solid close-range weapon with a unique flavor (think going fists of fury while said fists are holding the haft of your reach weapon), along with all the usual benefits of swinging a reach weapon - and your cleric bonuses don't care what you attack with. If you take a level of Sohei you can pick up a martial reach weapon, and you can flurry your unarmed strikes while wearing your brawling armor... which is negating the flurry penalty for you.
I know I'm getting pretty resource intensive by the end there, but it doesn't have to be all that; just Improved Unarmed Strike and brawling armor is a pretty cheap way to gain a good close-range/unarmed alternative. It's even legal to 5-ft step during a full attack to use both, like if you want to strike with your polearm first and then maybe throw a Domain Strike in there...
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I think it would be much more polite and quite probably more accurate to say the GM was mistaken. To accuse someone of cheating for getting a rule wrong means pretty much every person that plays the game is a cheater. I've never heard of any person getting every rule correct....
Your GMs are obviously cheating as the diagonal still crosses the 10' plane that a reach weapon threatens.
SKR's post -- forum posts from devs are legal rule sources. See the organized play pdf hereThe Pathfinder Society Community
You may not simply ignore rules clarifications made
by the campaign leadership, including the campaign
coordinator and campaign developer, on the paizo.
com messageboards. GMs are not required to read every
post on the messageboards, but GMs familiar with rules
clarifications made by the campaign leadership (which
have not been superseded by the Guide to Pathfinder Society
Organized Play or FAQ) must abide by these clarifications
or rulings. If it is a significant clarification, it will be
updated in the FAQ, and later in the Guide to Pathfinder
Society Organized Play if necessary.
Sure it was strongly stated, but he said he played through level 8--that's at least 24 sessions which is a long time to have been doing it incorrectly and have no one point out otherwise. The GM(s) was obviously using a loophole to screw over the player(s) either way so it's still super shady.
Sure it was strongly stated, but he said he played through level 8--that's at least 24 sessions which is a long time to have been doing it incorrectly and have no one point out otherwise. The GM(s) was obviously using a loophole to screw over the player(s) either way so it's still super shady.I think it would be much more polite and quite probably more accurate to say the GM was mistaken. To accuse someone of cheating for getting a rule wrong means pretty much every person that plays the game is a cheater. I've never heard of any person getting every rule correct....
Your GMs are obviously cheating as the diagonal still crosses the 10' plane that a reach weapon threatens.
SKR's post -- forum posts from devs are legal rule sources. See the organized play pdf hereThe Pathfinder Society Community
You may not simply ignore rules clarifications made
by the campaign leadership, including the campaign
coordinator and campaign developer, on the paizo.
com messageboards. GMs are not required to read every
post on the messageboards, but GMs familiar with rules
clarifications made by the campaign leadership (which
have not been superseded by the Guide to Pathfinder Society
Organized Play or FAQ) must abide by these clarifications
or rulings. If it is a significant clarification, it will be
updated in the FAQ, and later in the Guide to Pathfinder
Society Organized Play if necessary.
No it is obviously not a loophole. A loophole would mean the GM was correctly using some little know or unexpected combination. That is not the case. The GM was wrong.
Saying the GM was intentionally breaking the rules just to repeatedly screw with the player in this one minor way is silly and unlikely. It is hugely more likely that the GM simply didn't know he was doing it wrong.
I personally have never read the forum post that indicated that interpretation was incorrect. So if a GM told me that the forums said it worked that way (which apparently was the case long ago) I would believe him.
I know our local has in the past consistently used several incorrect rulings for years. Until finally one of us happened to notice some post or ruling that disagreed and pointed it out to the others.