So here's the situation.
Lets say we have a small air elemental familiar who has mule back cords and ant haul cast on it, this air elemental has fly by attack as all air elemental do. The elemental may also be invisible.
We also have a barbarian.
can the air elemental using fly by attack fly to the barbarian pick him up and drop him from 10 feet in the air to a space in front of a enemy letting the barbarian full attack.
secondly on the next turn can the elemental then move behind the barbarian, grapple with a -20 to not get the grappled condition (Is this a thing i cant find a source?) and fly the barbarian away letting neither take an aoo from the medium monster without reach and then drop the barbarian off to full attack another enemy.
On a related note any rules that say a medium humanoid can't ride a small elemental even if it has the carrying capacity?
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I would consider the barbarian "mounted" in your situation and therefore he couldn't get a full attack if he were carried by the elemental, just as a mounted character cannot full attack if the mount moves.
As far as using combat maneuvers on allies to move them around to avoid AoOs, that's a can of worms that has been opened before and usually leads to a big disagreement. While RAW would seem to allow using grapple, bull rush, reposition and so forth to move your friends, there are a lot of unanswered questions. What CMD do you use for the maneuver? Does it just auto-succeed like a friendly touch? If that's the case, how do you handle maneuvers whose effects depend on the degree of success, like bull rush? Does someone with the Greater feat get worse at moving allies since the movement now provokes? Basically, any way you look at it, the maneuver rules weren't written to be used on friendly targets and there will have to be a lot of house ruling.
My personal rule is that being moved by friendly forces is equivalent to moving yourself for AoO and full attack purposes.
Unfortunately the can of worms has been opened and my players are wanting and have been using the elemental use fly by attack and take a -20 to grapple checks to move them about while they retain full round/move actions.
I would rather not limit them via arbitrary house rule and am looking to see if these actions are supported or denied via existing rules/precedent.
The other problem I'm seeing is this lets the sorcerer make full round castings with metamagic while being moved around the battlefield and only having to make fairly easy concentration checks without having to make fast mount/dismount checks.
On a related note any rules that say a medium humanoid can't ride a small elemental even if it has the carrying capacity?
No, this doesn't work. The basic idea is that moving to the enemy using up the move action (at least thats how it works for mounted combatants). So the time you spend moving to the enemy (or being moved)prevents you from full attacking.
Unfortunately the can of worms has been opened and my players are wanting and have been using the elemental use fly by attack and take a -20 to grapple checks to move them about while they retain full round/move actions.
I would rather not limit them via arbitrary house rule and am looking to see if these actions are supported or denied via existing rules/precedent.
The other problem I'm seeing is this lets the sorcerer make full round castings with metamagic while being moved around the battlefield and only having to make fairly easy concentration checks without having to make fast mount/dismount checks.
On a related note any rules that say a medium humanoid can't ride a small elemental even if it has the carrying capacity?
I'm sorry to hear of your trouble. Combat manuevers were not intended to be used on friendly characters. I would honestly tell your players that either it cannot be done, or it counts against the moved characters movement for next round and counts as though they had moved themself for AoO, etc. Otherwise, it's widely unblanced (because it was not intended).
As already mentiond, this picking up and dropping bit is most similar to mounted combat which should cause the player to lose their move action as a mounted combatant would.
Sadly, as ranged attacks can actually be made while mounted, ranged attackers can make a full attack. So in this sense, you sorcerer should be able to cast while being moved around. However, I would again liken this to being mounted and require them to make a concentration check (DC 10+spell level, which will be trivial but still exists).
Vigorous Motion: If you are riding on a moving mount, taking a bouncy ride in a wagon, on a small boat in rough water, belowdecks in a storm-tossed ship, or simply being jostled in a similar fashion, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
No, this doesn't work. The basic idea is that moving to the enemy using up the move action (at least thats how it works for mounted combatants). So the time you spend moving to the enemy (pr being moved)prevents you from full attacking.
So dose the barbarian, after being dropped on the elemental's turn not still have a move/standard/swift? Keep in mind he is not mounted, the elemental is grappling and moving him via fly by attack and taking a -20 on the grapple check to not get the grappled condition so that it can continue to move after the grab.
No, this doesn't work. The basic idea is that moving to the enemy using up the move action (at least thats how it works for mounted combatants). So the time you spend moving to the enemy (pr being moved)prevents you from full attacking.So dose the barbarian, after being dropped on the elemental's turn not still have a move/standard/swift? Keep in mind he is not mounted, the elemental is grappling and moving him via fly by attack and taking a -20 on the grapple check to not get the grappled condition so that it can continue to move after the grab.
The barbarian would still have a standard action after being dropped, but since he only has a standard action it means he cannot full attack. (Full attack requires having both standard action and move action available to use.) He would also have a swift action still available. And he could always convert the standard action into a move (but would not be able to attack at all then).
While yes, he is not technically mounted, this is an artifact of the game. The closest thing we have rule wise on how to run this is by looking at mounted rules, else you have all the shenanigans and loopholes that your players are attempting to use right now.
There are simply no rules to cover what happens when a friendly character uses a combat maneuver on another character. And because of this it is very open to abuse, unless you make up your own rules.
I'm not saying that the elemental can't pick him up and keep going, I'm saying the barbarian loses the equivalent of a move action by letting this happen. Preventing him from full attacking.
Anything stopping the barbarian from going first during the turn full attacking and then being whisked away, dropped to a new target and then at top of the next round full attacking again at the top of a new round?
Semi related note how would this work if the target for the fly by attack/grapple was unconscious? Dose a corpse/unconscious player have a CMD?
The argument appears to be that the wind elemental's turn involves playing deliveryman with the barbarian. Flyby attack specifically states you can take any standard action during the move, not actually limiting it to an 'attack'.
The plan as I understand it:
Elemental activates fly-by attack
During the movement, it comes adjacent to the Barbarian
It uses the free standard action to grapple Barbarian
It then continues moving, holding the Barbarian, past a bad guy
When it moves near the bad guy, the elemental uses a free action to release the grapple and drop the Barbarian.
On the Barbarian's turn, he uses full attack.
So the questions:
Can you choose not to resist a grapple attempt in order to be picked up?
If you are picked up and moved across the battlefield by an ally, do you provoke AOOs?
If you are then deposited next to a target on the carrier's turn, can you take a full attack on your turn?
Is there any other rule considerations for the plan described above?
The main issue I see is with the movement while grappled:
Moving someone you have grappled requires a second round check. On the first round, you grapple and are done. Next round, after you maintain the grapple, you may then choose to move the target. You move half your speed with the target and put them down in an adjacent square.
You cannot do this with flyby attack since you can't actually move before you take the standard action to maintain the grapple, and once you take that action you are bound by the rules of grapple to only half movement.
So in this case, the barbarian will spend a whole turn just sitting there waiting to be moved. It is a solution for getting somewhere the barbarian cannot reach, but it isn't exactly a good choice for action economy since he misses out on an attack (since he could have just charged in and attacked during the waiting round and then full attacked the next round).
He is also grappled during this, so if anyone attacks him he has all the standard issues of being grappled (primarily -4 Dex, so -2 AC).
As for the sorcerer:
Casting a spell while you have the grappled condition is difficult and requires a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell you’re casting).
So that sounds kind of sucky for the sorcerer. Especially when they botch the roll. Also, as with the Barbarian, they are at -4 Dex while being carried around.
Just load up on archers and reflex save spells for a fight or two and teach them something about willful reduction of AC.
I will also add that all the combat maneuvers say "a foe", such as "You can attempt to drag a foe" and "you can attempt to grapple a foe"
The argument appears to be that the wind elemental's turn involves playing deliveryman with the barbarian.
The main issue I see is with the movement while grappled:
Moving someone you have grappled requires a second round check. On the first round, you grapple and are done. Next round, after you maintain the grapple, you may then choose to move the target. You move half your speed with the target and put them down in an adjacent square.
You cannot do this with flyby attack since you can't actually move before you take the standard action to maintain the grapple, and once you take that action you are bound by the rules of grapple to only half movement.
So in this case, the barbarian will spend a whole turn just sitting there waiting to be moved. It is a solution for getting somewhere the barbarian cannot reach, but it isn't exactly a good choice for action economy since he misses out on an attack (since he could have just charged in and attacked during the waiting round and then full attacked the next round).
He is also grappled during this, so if anyone attacks him he has all the standard...
Correct me if I'm wrong but can the air elemental not take a -20 to the grapple check to not gain the grappled condition and then just keep moving with ally in tow and then end the grapple as a free action when its movement is completed?
Wait, it someone get bullrushed by an ennemy,they loose no action and can do whatever they want. If you get bullrushed by a friend you loose your move action?
Unless the grapple and drag provided by the flyby attack specify it makes the target loose his move action there is nothing in the rule that prohibits the barbarian from full attacking.
If the barbarian ride the elemental, its a whole other story. Riding is a whole different story then getting picked up.
We understand that the rules say, but as we have stated repeatedly the rules were not written with the idea that combat maneuvers would be used on allies. Allowing them to be used on allies without a penalty it a bad idea, and a GM would be wise to disallow this and implement the ideas as we have suggested.
There are no actual rules to cover how this should work specifically.
Correct me if I'm wrong but can the air elemental not take a -20 to the grapple check to not gain the grappled condition and then just keep moving with ally in tow and then end the grapple as a free action when its movement is completed?
That would be correct, but air elementals don't have that ability as near as I can tell. What you are describing is grab, and air elementals don't have that. They do have Whirlwind, which could allow similar shenanigans, but it is most certainly not a grapple.
Correct me if I'm wrong but can the air elemental not take a -20 to the grapple check to not gain the grappled condition and then just keep moving with ally in tow and then end the grapple as a free action when its movement is completed?That would be correct, but air elementals don't have that ability as near as I can tell. What you are describing is grab, and air elementals don't have that. They do have Whirlwind, which could allow similar shenanigans, but it is most certainly not a grapple.
Good that rules out grappling now I just need to find a way to dissuade them from using the drag combat maneuver as a substitute.
Good that rules out grappling now I just need to find a way to dissuade them from using the drag combat maneuver as a substitute.
Correct me if I'm wrong but can the air elemental not take a -20 to the grapple check to not gain the grappled condition and then just keep moving with ally in tow and then end the grapple as a free action when its movement is completed?That would be correct, but air elementals don't have that ability as near as I can tell. What you are describing is grab, and air elementals don't have that. They do have Whirlwind, which could allow similar shenanigans, but it is most certainly not a grapple.
Put your foot down.
The rules were not meant to be used as they are trying to use them. Explain that despite this not being covered in the rules properly that this is how you are going to run the game:
Combat maneuvers can be used on allies but
1) It uses up the moved character's action for next turn
2) It provokes as the movement normally would
So, this would allow you to move an ally out of a dangerous location, or a location about to become dangerous. But doesn't do so for free. And nothing should be for free.
Drag and Bull Rush and Reposition all share two important factors:
First, they specifically say "opponent". Secondly, they are limited to 5 feet plus one square for every 5 points by which they exceed the CMD.
So, unless the wind elemental is amazingly awesome, it won't likely be able to budge the Barbarian and maybe it'll get the sorcerer to move a solid 10 feet.
Reposition also requires the target to remain in arm's reach during the movement, unsurprisingly.
Drag and Bull Rush and Reposition all share two important factors:
First, they specifically say "opponent". Secondly, they are limited to 5 feet plus one square for every 5 points by which they exceed the CMD.
So, unless the wind elemental is amazingly awesome, it won't likely be able to budge the Barbarian and maybe it'll get the sorcerer to move a solid 10 feet.
Reposition also requires the target to remain in arm's reach during the movement, unsurprisingly.
not sure I can make a good justification to not letting them lower their CMD. although treating it as spell resist may fix that as they will be getting tripped and disarmed all over the place due to lowering their guard so that the elemental can move them about.
In terms of the actual question, I agree that the best thing to do is to treat the carrying as mounted combat. The barbarian can make a fully attack, and then be picked up, sure, but on his next turn he can't make a full attack.
Bear in mind that pathfinder uses turn based for simplicity, but these things are not really happening sequentially. If you picture an actual combat, it's not as though each person is pausing while others take their turns. The fact that the barbarian is spending part of his time being carried eats into some of the time he could be spending doing other things, like attacking, logically.
I realize that's not a "raw" argument, but it is a good place to start in explaining why you need to use rule 0 in this case.
In terms of something else...
[pedantry]It's "lieu", not "lu".[/pedantry]
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Or, rather than try to tailor encounters to fit the RAW, you can exercise your right as a GM to make the rules be reasonable. One of the reasons it's a good thing that GMs are humans, not computers, is that they can make rulings in areas where things are wonky, or in dealing with situations where the rules were obviously not written to apply to.
Do you really think it is preferable that a GM be forced to alter a campaign based on what abilities a player has, as opposed to just saying "sorry, guys, but the rules were obviously not intended to work this way, so I'm going to say X". Narrative is more important than numerics, for goodness sake.
RAW only takes the form of chains when playing PFS, which is a bad thing about PFS, not a good thing. In a home game, you are Rule 0, and there is a good reason for that: the rules cannot foresee every possibility.
my stance on this:
the rules tell us that grappling someone and then moving is possible.:
Move
You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
And a grapple can be ended as a free action by the one initiating the grapple:
Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target.
Nothing in those rules state that the one grapples looses any kind of action. In fact they tell us that someone who is grapples still can make a full attack as long as he doesn't use a two-handed weapon. Why should that change in this case?
The players use a creature's full round action + 2 spells to allow the barbarian to full-attack. That's a some investment. And by the rules it seems legal.
If you rule that being carried makes you loose an action I'd try to take advantage of that rule. If that same air elemental would grapple and move an opponent that opponent would end up away from the party with only a standard action to do. Easy way to keep a rogue type NPC out of the fight. I.e. one with low to CMD and no spells.
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Where are you getting 2 spells from? The elemental is a familiar, so the actions you're "giving up" aren't generally used by many players anyway. The only spell I see is sometimes invisibility.
And if you want to compare to spells, it takes a 4th level spell (telekinetic charge) to move an ally off of their turn, once, and that movement still provokes.
Also your quote of "Move" neglects the fact that that is one of your options when making a successful grapple check, and making the check is a standard action.
I guess if you're going strict RAW, there is an argument for using combat maneuvers on allies to move them around. However, strict RAW there is no way to "accept" a combat maneuver or lower you own CMD so all such attempts would be checked against full CMD. You can't have it both ways, saying "RAW says we can use these on each other and thus I can move out of turn for no AoO" while also saying "I should be able to lower my defenses to make it automatically work." One is an argument from RAW and the other is an argument from "realism."
Lets say we have a small air elemental familiar who has mule back cords and ant haul cast on it, this air elemental has fly by attack as all air elemental do.
OK, I didn't notice that one of the two carrying enhancers is a magic item, not a spell. So it is a magical item and a spell.