Can a swashbuckler parry a natural 20 from an enemy?

[wakedown]

I waited until the final ACG was released before asking this, but it appears that parry/riposte are essentially identical to the text they had presented in Playtest 2.

The question is: Can a swashbuckler parry a natural 20 from an enemy?

Which takes precedence?

Parry, ACG p157 wrote:

If her result is greater than the attacking creature’s result, the creature’s attack automatically misses.

Attack Roll, Core p178 wrote:

A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit.

[SlimGauge]

Specific (swashbuckler ability) overrides General (a natural 20 always hits).

[deusvult]

Usually, specific rules trump generic rules.. so the swashbuckler-only rule about that class' parry ability should trump the generic rule applying to everyone about nat 20s.

However it'd still be nice to see it formally addressed.

[Bigdaddyjug]

Wait, the final version of the ACG was released already?

[BretI]

I'm hoping they will state the natural 20 wins. Even with that, you are going to get into a lot of dice rolling for no effect.

I don't know what the limits of the parry are. Hopefully they have some sort of limit on how much someone can parry.

[Zhayne]

BretI wrote:

I'm hoping they will state the natural 20 wins. Even with that, you are going to get into a lot of dice rolling for no effect.

I don't know what the limits of the parry are. Hopefully they have some sort of limit on how much someone can parry.

IIRC, parries count against your total number of AoOs in a turn.

And I agree with Slimgauge, parry trumps nat.20.

[wakedown]

Parry also requires a point of panache - which is something my tables often overlooked during the playtest, and which made it seem crazy amazing.

TBH, I can't tell which is the more specific vs more general rule - you could argue the parry ability is generally worded, and that the natural 20 rule is specific about a certain dice roll versus a general attack roll.

I imagine this question will become even more important since any class can grab parry+riposte with a feat. :)

FAQ away!

[FLite]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Wait, the final version of the ACG was released already?

Subscribers books were shipped to arrive on the 14th. Their pdfs were released the day their books shipped.

Everyone else gets to buy it the 14th

[Claxon]

I would fall on the side of Natural 20 trumps the Parry ability. I personally think of it as you just rolled infinity for your attack roll. The only way you could beat it in my mind is if the Swashbuckler rolled a natural 20.

It's really only an issue if the parry attempt is higher than 20+normal attack bonus. I feel like unless you're fighting enemies a couple levels below you this is unlikely to be the case. But, it would be nice to know an absolutely correct answer.

[Jiggy]

wakedown wrote:

TBH, I can't tell which is the more specific vs more general rule

O_O

[Bigdaddyjug]

wakedown wrote:

Parry also requires a point of panache - which is something my tables often overlooked during the playtest, and which made it seem crazy amazing.

TBH, I can't tell which is the more specific vs more general rule - you could argue the parry ability is generally worded, and that the natural 20 rule is specific about a certain dice roll versus a general attack roll.

I imagine this question will become even more important since any class can grab parry+riposte with a feat. :)

FAQ away!

I'm not sure if I'm being dense or not, but Parry only requires having a point of panache, it doesn't require spending that point. Taking the subsequent riposte requries spending the plint of panache. Also, swashbucklers should have at least as easy a time as gunslingers in recovering panache, so I don't see a lack of panache points every really coming into play.

[wakedown]

Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex) wrote:

At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the swashbuckler, she can spend 1 panache point and expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack.

The wording in the final copy is the same as the Playtest on this.

I totally saw it overlooked in play, too. It's pretty essential otherwise most swashbucklers are parrying everything under the sun. In this case, if they are beset upon by ten attacks in a round, they won't be parrying that many (since they are limited to their Charisma in panache points).

[Arutema]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

wakedown wrote:

Parry also requires a point of panache - which is something my tables often overlooked during the playtest, and which made it seem crazy amazing.

TBH, I can't tell which is the more specific vs more general rule - you could argue the parry ability is generally worded, and that the natural 20 rule is specific about a certain dice roll versus a general attack roll.

I imagine this question will become even more important since any class can grab parry+riposte with a feat. :)

FAQ away!

I'm not sure if I'm being dense or not, but Parry only requires having a point of panache, it doesn't require spending that point. Taking the subsequent riposte requries spending the plint of panache. Also, swashbucklers should have at least as easy a time as gunslingers in recovering panache, so I don't see a lack of panache points every really coming into play.

I do not know what source you are reading, but the latest playtest version requires that you spend, not have 1 panache in order to parry, and the subsequent riposte requires only your immediate action for the round.

You may be able to cheat this with signature deed at 11th level, but that's a long time to wait, especially if it's in PFS.

[Bigdaddyjug]

wakedown wrote:

Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex) wrote:

At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the swashbuckler, she can spend 1 panache point and expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack.

The wording in the final copy is the same as the Playtest on this.

I totally saw it overlooked in play, too. It's pretty essential otherwise most swashbucklers are parrying everything under the sun. In this case, if they are beset upon by ten attacks in a round, they won't be parrying that many (since they are limited to their Charisma in panache points).

Huh, that's weird. When they first released the playtest it cost a point to attempt to parry, but one of the later builds changed it to only costing the point to attempt the riposte. I guess they decided it to was too powerful and changed it back for the final version.

Edit: Wow, that is weird. I totally mis-read that. Opportune Parry is a woefully underpowered ability if it costs 2 points and 2 AoOs to parry and riposte. This makes me want to turn my 1 exp swashbuckler into something else, especially since I'm currently using my ifrit boon on it.

[wakedown]

Both of the playtests (1 & 2) and the final PDF required/require spending an AoO and a point of panache in order to parry.

The original playtest (#1) was the one that required another point of panache and another AoO in order to riposte.

Playtest 2 and the final release don't require spending 1 point of panache or an AOO to perform the riposte.

[Bigdaddyjug]

wakedown wrote:

Both of the playtests (1 & 2) and the final PDF required/require spending an AoO and a point of panache in order to parry.

The original playtest (#1) was the one that required another point of panache and another AoO in order to riposte.

Playtest 2 and the final release don't require spending 1 point of panache or an AOO to perform the riposte.

Ok, that's where I was confused. It's 1 total point of panache and 1 total AoO to parry and riposte. I was sitting here telling myselg, "Self, you know you read that it was just 1 point of panache to do both, now where the hell did you read that?" And my self was like, "Self, how the hell do you expect me to remember that with all of the info you cram into your brain in the course of a day?"

[Trekkie90909]

Typically player rolls trump NPC rolls, so if you roll a nat 20 to parry a nat 20 yours wins. Otherwise the nat 20 rule takes precedence.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

That is a perfectly reasonable house rule, Trekkie, but that's not how it goes in the actual rules. Nowhere in the book will you find a statement to the effect of "Typically player rolls trump NPC rolls".

The Nat 20 always hitting rule doesn't change what the actual result of the attack roll is. It doesn't make it infinite. If the numerical result of the Nat 20 is, say, a 31, and you roll a 32 in your parry attempt, even if that's not a natural 20, it blocks it, at least as far as I can tell from the rules.

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

wakedown wrote:

I totally saw it overlooked in play, too. It's pretty essential otherwise most swashbucklers are parrying everything under the sun. In this case, if they are beset upon by ten attacks in a round, they won't be parrying that many (since they are limited to their Charisma in panache points).

I strictly enforced this at my tables in PFS, didn't make any difference. Considering the nerf on blocking ONE hit Crane Wing caused, I'm surprised they let this through.

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Also, swashbucklers should have at least as easy a time as gunslingers in recovering panache, so I don't see a lack of panache points every really coming into play.

The swashys I've seen in action have a nearly unlimited supply of panache, and if they are blocking many hits that usually means lots of weak enemies to pikc up points on. I've seen them drop to a single point just to have a full pool in 1-2 rounds.

[Ipslore the Red]

"Automatically misses if X" versus "always hits if Y". Neither of them seems more specific than the other. FAQ'd.

[Jeff Merola]

Ipslore the Red wrote:

"Automatically misses if X" versus "always hits if Y". Neither of them seems more specific than the other. FAQ'd.

Uh, that's not what specific vs general means in Pathfinder. In this case it's General Rule vs Class Feature, and one of those is definitely more specific than the other.

[wakedown]

Having seen a good amount of playtesting with the swashbuckler, another interesting question about parrying.

Say you are a swashbuckler with a mundane rapier being attacked by a shadow. Can you parry the shadow's attacks?

Can a swashbuckler parry the attack of a creature he can't see, but know is around (say one that is invisible, or if the swashbuckler is blinded, or if they are in magical darkness)?

I suspect there will be a lot of GM discretion on how parry works until we start to see ACG FAQs.

[Trekkie90909]

In order to parry an attack you have to be aware of it so you can't parry attacks you can't see coming.

The shadow question is interesting. From incorporeal:

Quote:

An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.

A parry is a type of attack action (you roll an attack to do it) so I would say no you can't parry a shadow without a magical weapon.

[shadowkras]

Any news on this? Was the ruling changed after the book was released?
How is it working on PFS?

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

I am mostly curious about the question about incorporeal touch attacks and whether they can be parried. I think the language in the book is clear as regards natural 20s.

[Catmint Hivekeeper]

My assertion is that the shadow question is a separate conversation, the original post wants to know, which has precedent:

1. enemy rolls 20, swashbuckler beats attack roll.
2. enemy rolls 20, swashbuckler rolls 20.

I'm ok with whatever the official ruling is, we'd just like to see it addressed in a faq or errata.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

*casts Detect Magic*

This thread radiates a Moderate Aura of Necromancy Magic...