SirPeter
|
Hi, buddies!
I'll play a home campaign and I'll make a paladin (sacred shield) - sorcerer (dragon bloodline - gold dragon) - dragon disciple, the mage tank.
'Til now, he is like this:
Half-orc
Paladin (sacred shield) 2/ Sorcerer 1
STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 15
Feats:
1st - Skill Focus (survival) - for qualify for Eldritch Heritage (Orc Bloodline)
3rd - Eschew materials (sorcerer bonus) and...?
So any suggestions? Mainly about the feats?
Thank you!
| Blave |
Get Additional traits for Magical Knack if you don't have it yet.
Unless you want to go full DD for RP-Reasons, I highly recommend:
Paladin 2, Sorc 3, Dragon Disciple 4, Eldritch Knight 10, Sorc 1.
Gives you better BAB, a slighly higher CL and access to fighter only feats.
If you want to be a tank, get Full Plate and a Shield. Use verbal-only spells like displacement or Still Spell to cast in Combat. Get Power Attack, Arcane Strike and later Improved critical and Weapon Specialization for more damage.
Equipment:
- Sivler Smite Bracelets for an additional Smite per day (for attack bonus and ignoring DR).
- Robes of Arcane Heritage for +1 AC, higher fire resistance and a breath attack.
| Lacdannan |
You got the basics down. I suggest going buckler / longsword. Both are commonly found as loot. Also, it doesn't hurt that a Holy Avenger is a longsword. You can sword and board when you need the AC or two-hand the longsword when you don't (with a minor -1 to your attacks). At high level, you'll be able to increase your AC by 6 (w/ a +5 Mithril buckler) or increase your damage by 5-6 points per hit (power attack) plus add 1.5 x your Str instead of just Str as you see fit. Versatility rocks.
As far as feats, see if your DM will allow you to take the 3.5 feat Improved Buckler Defense. It allows you to keep your shield bonus to AC, but will still not negate the -1 penalty to attacks. Still, if this feat is permitted, consider it essential.
I took multiattack (requires DM approval I believe), but I also was a barbarian/DD with beast and fiend totems. If your DM allows unlimited use of your bloodline claws, this feat may be worthwhile so you can 1Hsword/bite/claw on creatures without DR or 2Hsword/bite with it.
I also took Intimidating Prowess and Cornugon Smash because free debuffs are nice. You could also consider weapon focus into Dazzling Display, but I did not take this path on my DD.
With such high Str, your CMB will be impressive, so I also took Improved Sunder.
I used a +1 keen holy cold iron longsword through the majority of my career (up to and including killing Karzoug) and was quite happy with it. Being a Paladin, however, you might be better off getting a Holy Avenger if you can and getting the Improved Critical feat.
| Physically Unfeasible |
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Use verbal-only spells like displacement...
Really, this can't be emphasised over-much, particularly in the example I've left there; if you want to be the party's front line option, displacement is wonderful.
Here's an Eldritch Knight guide, which, whilst not your primary aim, may offer food for thought (see list of non-somatic spells);Guide
0: Flare, Light
1: Feather Fall, Hold Portal, True Strike, Ventriloquism
2: Blindness/deafness, Blur, Knock
3: Displacement, Suggestion, Tongues
4: Dimension Door, Geas (lesser), Shout
5: Contact Other Plane, Teleport
6: Geas/Quest, Suggestion (Mass)
7: Phase Door, Power Word Blind, Teleport (Greater), Teleport Object,
8: Charm Monster (Mass), Irresistible Dance, Power Word Stun, Shout (Greater)
9: Mage’s Disjunction, Power Word Kill, Prismatic Sphere, Teleportation Circle, Time Stop, Wail of the Banshee
Blur and Displacement are of particular note by creating a chance enemies miss you that have to be passed as well as your AC.
Edit: On top of that, may I recommend looking into a reach weapon rather than sword and shield? Partially because when you want to try a spell with somatic components, you need to free a hand quickly, partially because that will help you control more of an area (attacks of opportunity, yay!).
| Lacdannan |
Arcane armor feat chain may be worth it. I only took the first one and limited myself to a Mithril chainshirt (but again I was a barbarian, so AC was not a priority). With both feats, you'd be at a 0% arcane spell failure with a Mithril BP (and have no movement speed reduction and can sleep in it) or 5% arcane spell failure with Mithril Fullplate (movement speed reduced by 10 and can't sleep in it without the endurance feat). Remember that it does consume your swift action in every round you cast a spell. So when you reach level 10 of eldritch knight and crit, the spell you get to cast as a swift action won't receive the benefit of these feats (and this will be at 20-25% failure). Not a huge deal and still might be worth it, especially if you don't have any other priority feats. Your save DC's won't be incredible, but they also won't be awful (especially once you get a Cha item). You'll mostly just be a little behind on caster level, so SR will hurt a bit.
The alternative is to focus on long duration spells and cast them in the morning before you armor up.
I assume your level 4 ability bonus will be going into Cha?
All things considered, yeah I'd take those feats.
| Blave |
Arcane armor Training/Mastery is nice for an offensive eldritch knight (like wiz5/fig1/ek10). I played one to level 9 once and was quite happy with it.
For a tank, I wouldn't bother unless you can get celestial full plate. If you can, go for it. Otherwise, I'd stick with heavy armor, pre-combat buffs and the occasional still spell. Your spell DC won't be high enough to make casting in combat useful.
| Lacdannan |
Edit: On top of that, may I recommend looking into a reach weapon rather than sword and shield? Partially because when you want to try a spell with somatic components, you need to free a hand quickly, partially because that will help you control more of an area (attacks of opportunity, yay!).
A buckler is strapped to your forearm and a longsword is a one-handed weapon. It's a free action to hold it in one hand or two. Having a free hand is a non-issue for longsword / buckler user.
Reach is good but you don't threaten adjacent squares. Your limited use claws or a spiked guantlet can resolve this, but probably won't be as well enchanted as your main weapon. The ability to cast spells outside of reach freely is nice kinda though. Problem is, with arcane armor, you'll never cast a spell as a swift action, so any round you cast a spell will be at least a standard action. So full attack plus a quickened spell can never happen for you. Personal preference I guess, but I found that I could usually 5 foot step back to cast if I really needed to. The following round, if the enemy didn't close, I'd 5-foot back and full attack. Alternatively, (and preferably) I'd just cast before combatants closed the distance (buffs or ranged spells). After all, if you make them close, they have a round with only one attack (forgetting about pounce) whereas you can then full attack.
AoO are nice, but you need Combat Reflexes to shine. If you take the reach weapon advice, definitely need this feat. Without feats like combat patrol, stand still, and pin down, AoO are more offensive than defensive.
Personally, I found being able to choose between better AC or better damage a better deal for my DD than reach, but your results may vary.
isdestroyer
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Have you considered going bard instead of sorcerer? You still have arcane spells, cha is still your primary stat, plus the benefits of being a bard. I've never played a DD before, so I'm not saying this is the better option, but from what I've seen in terms of abilities, it just seems to me to have a better mechanical advantage over the sorcerer. Plus, bards automatically ignore arcane spell failure for light armor (I think). Anyway, just a suggestion.
| Lacdannan |
Also, since you aren't feat starved at the moment, consider Combat Casting. Then just make your concentration checks and not worry about casting within reach. Actually, given range of possible enemy sizes and their respective reaches in the game, this is probably much more reliable than a reach weapon.
Your spell DC won't be high enough to make casting in combat useful.
I'm not sure I agree with this. As a Paladin 2 / Sorc 3 / DD 4 / EK 10 / Sorc 1 at 20th level he will be casting 8th level spells with a caster level of 18. His Cha should be in the 26-30 range and irregardless the number of no save or partial effect spells is extensive.
| Blave |
As a Paladin 2 / Sorc 3 / DD 4 / EK 10 / Sorc 1 at 20th level he will be casting 8th level spells with a caster level of 18. His Cha should be in the 26-30 range and irregardless the number of no save or partial effect spells is extensive.
Well, he said tank, so I assume he's going high Strength over Charisma. If he wants offensive casting, he should get spell penetration as well.
| Lacdannan |
True, the build we're discussing is the one you suggested, and he has not stated he's going to use it. Still, the 26 Cha is only with a +6 item and a +5 inherent bonus. It accounts for no level increases. That said, as the tank I'd be throwing all of my level increases into Cha. Str is for damage; Cha is for saves and 1 per day (2 with an item) deflection bonus to AC.
| Physically Unfeasible |
[Some pretty apt points]
Good call, had missed use of bucklers there.
As to non-enchanted secondary weapons though, I'd point to magic weapon as a means to keeping a secondary fairly viable in this build. Though that then means taking arcane armour primarily just to make carrying two weapons work out so you're not cursing failure %.That said, I'd reference the list I gave of spells that don't suffer the failure % as a means in which one does not have to make use of arcane armour feats. Particularly when you look at the Eldritch Knight cap:
At 10th level, whenever an eldritch knight successfully confirms a critical hit, he can cast a spell as a swift action. The spell must include the target of the attack as one of its targets or in its area of effect. Casting this spell does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The caster must still meet all of the spell's components and must roll for arcane spell failure if necessary.
That, in and of itself, I think is a very good reason to look into spells that don't demand the failure roll, or still spell (though I had failed to discuss the latter).
And, of course, none of this invalidates your point on bucklers, I'd just saying your swift action need not (and if you can minimise needing it to be, that's great) to activate arcane armour feats.
That said, yes, AoOs are only an offence tool without stand still; however, offence is your best means to make an enemy notice you as opposed to the wizard behind you. Again though, I admit that it's fairly poor without some dex to make combat reflexes work out.
Though, wouldn't a weapon you take in two hands provide inherently better damage in a strength set up?
| Cardinal Chunder |
Have you considered going bard instead of sorcerer? You still have arcane spells, cha is still your primary stat, plus the benefits of being a bard. I've never played a DD before, so I'm not saying this is the better option, but from what I've seen in terms of abilities, it just seems to me to have a better mechanical advantage over the sorcerer. Plus, bards automatically ignore arcane spell failure for light armor (I think). Anyway, just a suggestion.
I prefer Summoner over Bard.
Had great fun with a Tiefling (Pit Born) Paladin4/Summoner1/DDIomedae follower for Righteous Smite (extra smite evil)
SirPeter
|
So, I made some statistics about the EK and DD.
Look:
Paladin 2, Sorc 3, Dragon Disciple 4, Eldritch Knight 10, Sorc 1.
BAB
Paladin +2
Sorcerer +2
EK +10
DD +3
TOTAL BAB +17
3 extra combat feats
Spells know: 0-9, 1st-5, 2nd-5, 3rd-4, 4th-4, 5th-4, 6th-3, 7th-2, 8th-1
Bonus Spells: mage armor (3rd), resist energy (5th), fly (7th)
Breath Weapon 8d6, 1x per day
Resist fire 5 and a +1 natural armor bonus
With Robe of Arcane Heritage:
Breath Weapon 12d6, 2x per day.
Energy resistance increases to 10 and natural armor bonus increases to +2.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paladin 2, Sorc 3, Dragon Disciple 8, Sorc 7.
BAB
Paladin +2
Sorcerer +5
DD +6
TOTAL = +13
3 extra bloodline feats
Spells know: 0-9, 1st-5, 2nd-5, 3rd-4, 4th-4, 5th-4, 6th-3, 7th-2, 8th-1
Bonus Spells: mage armor (3rd), resist energy (5th), fly (7th), fear (9th), spell resistance (11th), form of the dragon I (13th), form of the dragon II (15th)
Breath Weapon 18d6, 3x per day
Fire resistance 10, natural armor bonus +4
WINGS
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, if I'll go to EK path, I'll have +4 on BAB, but if I'll go to DD8, I'll have more spells, more NA, more damage with breath weapon, more times per day, more STR, more CON, wings... What do you think?
PS.: because I'll go by EH (Orc Bloodline) path, I'll pump the character's CHA.
| Lacdannan |
Though, wouldn't a weapon you take in two hands provide inherently better damage in a strength set up?
That's why I recommend longsword. It can be two-handed when you want to lay down the damage with power attack and 1.5xStr. A 1d8 longsword versus a 1d10 bardiche or glaive is a difference of 1 point less damage on average. Even versus a 2d6 greatsword, it's only 2.5 less on average. Personally, I feel the versatility of having a shield bonus when you need it warrants it.
Excellent points about still spells / no somatic with EK level 10 ability. Also, good call on casting magic weapon for spiked gauntlets, but I don't think it would work for the claws (natural weapons I believe, would need magic fang).
Also, to the OP, I know you've selected Sacred Shield archetype, but I might suggest considering oath of vengeance paladin 4 / Sorc 1 into DD 4 / EK 10 / Sorc 1. You'll cap out at CL 16 and 7th level spells, but you'll get the ability to convert lay on hands into extra smites on a 2 for 1 basis. You can't get extra smites with feats, but you can get extra lay on hands that way. You won't be halving damage of allies within 10, but you'll be smiting ~ 4 times per day at level 4, up to ~9 times at level 20 without investing any feats in it. And each extra lay on hands feat you put into it adds 1 more effective smite per day. Cha to AC and attacks that many times per day makes you a threat evil enemies can't ignore.
Edit: edited to correct a math error. Division is hard, peoples!
Argus The Slayer
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The other nice bonus to using a one handed weapon, instead of a standard two handed weapon, is that you are still effective if you get grappled, since you can still use the weapon one handed.
If you GM will allow you to use a Falcata, it is worth the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat: (19-20)x3 is very nice, and you can use it one-handed or two-handed.
I've played a Falcata-wielding fighter (Argus the Slayer) through 13 levels of PFS. His damage is pretty devastating.
SirPeter
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isdestroyer wrote:Have you considered going bard instead of sorcerer? You still have arcane spells, cha is still your primary stat, plus the benefits of being a bard. I've never played a DD before, so I'm not saying this is the better option, but from what I've seen in terms of abilities, it just seems to me to have a better mechanical advantage over the sorcerer. Plus, bards automatically ignore arcane spell failure for light armor (I think). Anyway, just a suggestion.I prefer Summoner over Bard.
Had great fun with a Tiefling (Pit Born) Paladin4/Summoner1/DD
Iomedae follower for Righteous Smite (extra smite evil)
Why do you prefer the summoner? You will have just a few points to put in your eidolon...
| Secret Wizard |
I WAS EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED THAT, JUDGING BY THIS THREAD TITLE, THIS WHOLE THING ISNT IN PURE CAPS LOCK GOODNESS, ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING HOW HAMMY THIS CHARACTER SOUNDS.
MY PERSONAL FAVORITE IS STARTING OFF ARCANE DUELIST BARD 10, DD 10. YOU GET SURPRISINGLY GOOD AC THANKS TO MEDIUM ARMOR (ARCANE DUELIST CAN USE IT FROM LEVEL 10 ON WITHOUT ASF) AND NATURAL ARMOR AND THE EXTRA DEX THAT ALLOWS FOR.
ARCANE DUELIST CAN ALSO ENCHANT HIS DRAGON CLAWS OR BREATHE WEAPON WHICH IS REALLY COOL, THIS IS GENERALLY VERY HARD TO ACHIEVE.
SURE, YOU DON'T STACK SORCERER LEVELS, BUT ITS STILL PRETTY COOL.
| Blave |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also, to the OP, I know you've selected Sacred Shield archetype, but I might suggest considering oath of vengeance paladin 4 / Sorc 1 into DD 4 / EK 10 / Sorc 1.
Unless he takes another race, that won't work. He still needs 3rd level arcane spells to qualify for EK.
@SirPeter: I don't think melee DD works well without EK. As you've said already, more DD level give you:
- slighly better AC. Nice to have but betwee heavy armor, a shield (spell or physical) and defensive spells like displacement and mirror image, your defense will be more than good enough.
- More spells. Always nice, but I don't like fear (running enemies might alert more foes) and having multiple form of the dragon spells is utterly redundant. Also, you already have fire resistence (and the resist energy spell on demand) and by the time you get the dragon form spells, you should have overland flight. So the only thing the dragon form grants you are the natural attacks, which are probably not better than your weapon at that level.
- Better Breath Weapon. Ok, this one's nice. Still, it doesn't benefit from your bloodline arcana and is probably not much stronger than your fire attack spells (Fire snake, intensified Fireball or whatever).
- Wings. Another very good ability. But again, Overland flight will work just as well. Yes, you are fliying slower with the spell, but your Fly skill will get a significant bonus, as the spell grants good maneuverability (+4) and a bonus equal to half your CL on top of that. That's pretty significant, even more so if you are in heavy armor.
- 3 Bloodline Feats. Nice, but the selection is so limited, I'd rather get the 3 combat feats from the EK.
Frankly, I'd give up all those things for the +4 BAB alone. Getting more attacks (and sooner) is worth giving up the DD abilities.
You also lose the Capstone EK ability, which isn't great for your build but better than nothing. And you can't take Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus without EK. Those feats will improve your melee abilities even further.
I had a complete build for the Pal2/Sorc3/DD4/EK10/Sorc1 once. With a focus on Strength, Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Weapon Specialization and buffs like Heroism, his one-handed attack dealt about as much damage as a regular Paladin with a two-handed weapon (not counting smite) and had a better attack bonus, higher AC and 8th level arcane spellcasting on top of that.
And I was only using Core rules...
| Arksangiel |
Hi, buddies!
I'll play a home campaign and I'll make a paladin (sacred shield) - sorcerer (dragon bloodline - gold dragon) - dragon disciple, the mage tank.
Half-orc
Paladin (sacred shield) 2/ Sorcerer 1So any suggestions? Mainly about the feats?
Thank you!
First, consider cross-blooded (orc/draconic) to save needing the eldritch heritage feat line (you're short on feats). Simply pick up the orc Str bonus instead of wings since DD gives it to you at 9 or you can learn fly or you can make a caster level check without UMD.
For feats, go Power Attack --> Cleave --> Toughness (since you mentioned tank) --> and then roll into whatever melee style you are using.
Then, flowing into EK is a good idea, do so either after DD6 (for the con bonus) or DD8 (for the int bonus and a dragon form). If you can't live without wings or want to maximize hp, go Pal 2 Sor 3 DD 10 EK 5.
My two cents, some of which differs with and some of which agrees with the previous esteemed posters. Early EK entry into DD via a spell-like ability is another powerful tool, would allow you to do Pal 2 Sor 1 EK 2, DD 6, EK 10, Sor 2 (where you would want eldritch heritage Orc vs crossblooded).
| Oterisk |
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I appreciate you taking a look at the DD as it's my favorite. If you are looking for a Tank, then Pal 4 is really good. Remember that Smites will increase your AC against tough opponents, so having a few extra a day will really come in handy. Cross-blooded would save you 3 feats and get you extra strength 2 levels earlier, and you gain bonuses to your saves through Paladin so that's nice. If he's already built and being played then I guess there's no option there.
Your stat layout is good, but if you are planning to wear full plate, you'll have an issue with having too much Dex. The higher Dex will help you at lower levels and if you plan to do a bit of polymorphing.
Reach weapons are great for Dragon Disciples since they can fight short range with their natural weapons. If you want to threaten, take the racial trait or the feat for a bite attack as a half orc and you'll find opportunity to use it when need be.
Spells are good, but you aren't getting any 2nd level ones for at least 4 more levels. If you are in an AP you won't get to 20, so you might want to keep that in mind. Trying to get a capstone about level 16 is best. Remember that if you get robes of arcane heritage and two levels of Paladin, you can get the Dragon Bloodline Capstone at level 18. Blindsense, immunity to paralysis, sleep and your energy type.
DD 9-10 are only good for people who want to take mostly another type of class besides Sorcerer AND want to focus on natural attacks AND are fine with never casting more than 4th level spells. The difference between these levels and two levels of sorcerer is about 4 HP and one less caster level and 2 extra Dragon Form 2 per day. Oh, and 30 feet of movement when flying.
| Blave |
I'm a bit confused with the comments about going cross-blooded Dragon/Orc instead of Eldritch Heritage. I usually play with only Core+APG, so I'm not too familiar with cross-blooded, the orc Bloodline or Eldritch Heritage so pardon me if I miss something
Wouldn't cross-blooded give him very little Strength?
DD should only stack with the sorc levels to determine the power of the dragon bloodline. His Orc Bloodline powers would be unaffected. As he only takes a few levels of Sorc he might hardly reach the required level 9, even with Robes of Arcane Heritage.
Going Eldritch Heritage on the other hand could grant him the comlete +6 Strength bonus as it is based on his total character level.
SirPeter
|
I appreciate you taking a look at the DD as it's my favorite. If you are looking for a Tank, then Pal 4 is really good. Remember that Smites will increase your AC against tough opponents, so having a few extra a day will really come in handy. Cross-blooded would save you 3 feats and get you extra strength 2 levels earlier, and you gain bonuses to your saves through Paladin so that's nice. If he's already built and being played then I guess there's no option there.
Your stat layout is good, but if you are planning to wear full plate, you'll have an issue with having too much Dex. The higher Dex will help you at lower levels and if you plan to do a bit of polymorphing.
Reach weapons are great for Dragon Disciples since they can fight short range with their natural weapons. If you want to threaten, take the racial trait or the feat for a bite attack as a half orc and you'll find opportunity to use it when need be.
Spells are good, but you aren't getting any 2nd level ones for at least 4 more levels. If you are in an AP you won't get to 20, so you might want to keep that in mind. Trying to get a capstone about level 16 is best. Remember that if you get robes of arcane heritage and two levels of Paladin, you can get the Dragon Bloodline Capstone at level 18. Blindsense, immunity to paralysis, sleep and your energy type.
DD 9-10 are only good for people who want to take mostly another type of class besides Sorcerer AND want to focus on natural attacks AND are fine with never casting more than 4th level spells. The difference between these levels and two levels of sorcerer is about 4 HP and one less caster level and 2 extra Dragon Form 2 per day. Oh, and 30 feet of movement when flying.
Oterisk,
I was inspired by your guide to make this character, he is really good, congratulations! :)
| Oterisk |
Oterisk,
I was inspired by your guide to make this character, he is really good, congratulations! :)
Thanks! Its always nice to find another dragon disciple fan. They can be really fun to play with lots of flavor. I'm glad you are enjoying him. Keep up the good work!
I've been waiting until the new classes come out to find out before I go through the guide again to see what needs updating. I'll put in more information on how to build specific builds. Updating the Chassis section probably with a complete rewrite so it actually is helpful is my top priority after adding the new classes with their archetypes to the guide.
| Thaago |
I'm a bit confused with the comments about going cross-blooded Dragon/Orc instead of Eldritch Heritage. I usually play with only Core+APG, so I'm not too familiar with cross-blooded, the orc Bloodline or Eldritch Heritage so pardon me if I miss something
Wouldn't cross-blooded give him very little Strength?
DD should only stack with the sorc levels to determine the power of the dragon bloodline. His Orc Bloodline powers would be unaffected. As he only takes a few levels of Sorc he might hardly reach the required level 9, even with Robes of Arcane Heritage.
Going Eldritch Heritage on the other hand could grant him the comlete +6 Strength bonus as it is based on his total character level.
I believe that current interpretation is that the DD levels will also advance the orc bloodline. DD was written before crossblooded, so its language assumes 1 bloodline:
"Blood of Dragons: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline..."
Technically crossblooded is the characters bloodline - he gets to choose which abilities to take each time they come up, but doesn't get both - so it works.
I'm not totally convinced that a crossblooded draconic/X is allowed to be a DD, as the class specifically requires the draconic bloodline if the character has sorcerer levels and I just stated that the bloodline is crossblooded x/x. But I'm not really going to complain as it lets DD's be decent blasters and also have enormous strength scores.
| Oterisk |
I'm a bit confused with the comments about going cross-blooded Dragon/Orc instead of Eldritch Heritage.
The Dragon Disciple adds its class level to the sorcerer level to determine powers that come from bloodline. It was also written pre-archetypes, so they didn't foresee what's going on with Crossblooded. By RAW bloodline powers advance as if they were taking levels of Sorcerer, so a crossblooded Orc-Draconic continues to gain bloodline powers as determined in the Archetype modified by the Dragon Disciple class.
I can certainly see why a GM wouldn't allow it, but it really isn't unbalanced. Lots of people decry the Crossblooded Archetype for its major, major drawbacks, but if allowed it brings extra strength to a Prestige Class which are admittedly a little weaker than sticking with a class the whole way through.
[edit]Ah, them crafty ninjas![/edit]
SirPeter
|
Well, here comes the classes:
Paladin (sacred shield) 2 / sorcerer (crossblooded orc-draconic) 1 / DD 6 / sorcerer 1 / EK 5 / sorcerer 5
With that he will become a +16 BAB, CL 15 (7th lvl spells), all benefits from bloodlines at lvl 17th (+6 in STR - orc bloodline) with the robe of arcane heritage.
Is it good?
Now, the feats... Suggestions?
| Thaago |
Hmm, I don't think that works - you need 5 ranks of knowledge arcana before you can become a DD, so you need 5 levels of something before that.
Any reason why you are doing DD 6? Usually people stop at 4 or 8, as the 'bad levels' for spellcasting and BAB are 1, 5, and 9. And if you are going to level 8 in DD, I think its best to just finish it off. One advantage of the level 10 DD is that it gives you wings even if you use the level 15 bloodline power from the orc bloodline. Its a very nice backup shape-change as you'll have more uses of it per day than you'll ever need.
| AndIMustMask |
for feats i'd say either look into long-standing armor buffs or the arcane armor feats (or still spell if you've got the slots to spare). if you've got a bite attack, noxious bite (if you've chosen an acid dragon breath) is a neat feat (monster feat sure, but nothing in the prereqs says you've got to be one) might be cool for a natural attack build.
SirPeter
|
Hmm, I don't think that works - you need 5 ranks of knowledge arcana before you can become a DD, so you need 5 levels of something before that.
Any reason why you are doing DD 6? Usually people stop at 4 or 8, as the 'bad levels' for spellcasting and BAB are 1, 5, and 9. And if you are going to level 8 in DD, I think its best to just finish it off. One advantage of the level 10 DD is that it gives you wings even if you use the level 15 bloodline power from the orc bloodline. Its a very nice backup shape-change as you'll have more uses of it per day than you'll ever need.
First, my bad for the math (urgh!), the BAB of the build I mentioned was +14, not +16.
Thaago, you're right. Maybe I can go paladin 2/sorcerer 3/DD 8/EK 7, that way the char's BAB will be really +16, CL 15th and the benefits from bloodline will cap at 15th, with only +4 from the orc bloodline, but with a better BAB.
| Wiggz |
For a 'true' tank, you'd be better off going straight Paladin, possibly with a one level dip in Oracle. Not knocking the DD, I love the PrC, it's just not ideally suited for tanking.
I assume you're taking Opportunistic Gambler to pair with Eldritch Heritage/Orc/Touch of Rage? Be careful with that as it's a campaign-specific trait and likely won't be allowed. A better option would be to take Community Minded which will allow not just you but others to benefit from the ability as well.
SirPeter
|
For a 'true' tank, you'd be better off going straight Paladin, possibly with a one level dip in Oracle. Not knocking the DD, I love the PrC, it's just not ideally suited for tanking.
I assume you're taking Opportunistic Gambler to pair with Eldritch Heritage/Orc/Touch of Rage? Be careful with that as it's a campaign-specific trait and likely won't be allowed. A better option would be to take Community Minded which will allow not just you but others to benefit from the ability as well.
Thank you for the advice! I saw your build the mage tank posted with your alias Mercurial, and I think it is a very interrsting build to play.
SirPeter
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Thank you all for the help.
Here is the final build:
Paladin (sacred shield) 2 / sorcerer (crossblooded orc-draconic) 3 / DD 8 / EK 7
Stats:
16 (10) +2 racial, +2 7th, +2 9th, +2 11th, +2 15th (w/ Robe of Arcane Heritage)
14 (5)
14 (5) +2 11th
10 (0) +2 13th
8 (-2)
15 (7) +1 (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th)
Feats
Pal 1st Combat Reflexes (feat) BAB +1
Pal 2nd BAB +2
Sor 3rd Arcane Strike (feat), Eschew Materials (bonus) CL 1
Sor 4th CL 2
Sor 5th Arcane Armor Training (feat) CL 3, BAB +3
DD 6th
DD 7th Still Spell (feat), Power Attack (bloodline) CL 4, BAB +4
DD 8th CL 5, BAB +5
DD 9th Lunge (feat), CL 6, BAB +6
DD 10th Toughness (bloodline)
DD 11th Arcane Armor Mastery (feat), CL 7, BAB +7
DD 12th CL 8, BAB +8
DD 13th Dimensional Agility (feat), Intimidating Prowess (bloodline) CL 9, BAB +9
EK 14th Cornugon Smash (combat feat), BAB +10
EK 15th Dimensional Assault (feat), CL 10, BAB +11
EK 16th CL 11, BAB +12
EK 17th Dimensional Dervish (feat) CL 12, BAB +13
EK 18th Dazing Assault (combat feat) CL 13, BAB +14
EK 19th Quicken Spell (feat) CL 14, BAB +15
EK 20th CL 15, BAB +16
| Calth |
I've been messing around with the ACG, and am on a bloodrager kick, so as a possible alternative, steelblood primalist (archetypes) destined-bloodline bloodrager could make a pretty awesome tank. Steelblood gives you heavy armor with full arcane casting, along with fighter armor training, so mithral full plate ends up 9 armor, 7 max dex, 0 ACP, or adamantite ends up DR 3/- 9 armor, 5 max dex, -1 ACP. (Steelblood loses uncanny dodge, gets only 5 ft speed increase, and DR and gets a couple other minor effects) Full BAB and CL but only 4th level spells. Level 4 destined bloodline power gets you a +1/per four level luck bonus to AC and saves. Swapping out the attack reroll at 8 for lesser beast totem and beast totem gets you stacking +1/ four level natural armor. At 12 you get a 1/day DC 20 Fort Check to prevent death from HP damage. At 16 you auto-confirm crits and can only be crit by auto-confirms and nat 20 confirmation rolls. At 20 you gain always on immunity to anti action conditions (e.g. paralyzed, stunned). Drop magical knack for fate's favored to boost your luck bonuses.
End up with:
20 CL (4th level spellcasting)
20 BAB
AC of 10+14(+5 plate)+6(luck)+6(NA)+5(NA enhance)+5(deflect)-2(rage)+dex(upto 5 or 7) = 44+Dex So you can focus on tank feats.
Good fort save, poor will and reflex, but get rage bonus to will and +6 to all saves.
Any alignment(I personally like not having to deal with a paladin code, buts a personal preference thing)