Is this a good enough spell to focus a character around? Like a kitsune sorcerer who put all of their FCB into the racial one, took the fey bloodline, and took a bunch of metamagic spells and feats to raise their DC?
I was doing some quick calculations and I figured out at level 8, I could use a 4th level spell slot to cast a persistent heightened hideous laughter that would require two DC 29 will saves, every round.
The only drawback I can see is that each casting of the spell is going to be a full round action, but it's not likeyou have many combats that only last one round.
No. Too many monsters immune to mind affecting spells and/or have really high will saves later in the game.
With that aside if the fight has more than one enemy the others can disrupt your concentration check.
There is a feat that allows you to use mind affects on undead so that is one group of enemies you wont have to worry about as much. However since the spell does not remove them completely from the fight I don't think it is worth all of the effort.
It is a good spell. I certainly wouldn't have it be my only focus. Having a bit of the character focused on enchantment spells so they are fairly strong can be good, but you want to put your resources into other places as well, so you aren't useless when something immune shows up.
When you say "really high will saves", how high exactly do you mean? If a creature has a +20 will save, there's still a 69.5% chance it's going to fail one of the saves. Also, with the fact that it will require two saves every turn, chances are it's out of the fight long enough for the frontliners to get over there and monkey stomp its prone patootie.
Also, this is for PFS, so the chance of running into some of "those creatures" is a lot lower, seeing as we fight a lot of humanoids. I could also go crossblooded fey/impossible to add constructs to the list of creatures affected by hideous laughter. That still leaves undead, vermin, oozes, and a few others that cannot be affected. I can always add a few direct damage spells to my list of spells known to help out in those situtations.
Or possibly even fey/undead to add undead to the list of affectable creatures. Or even better, I could go crossblooded undead/impossible and add both undead and constructs to the list and the DCs will just be 2 lower. That 69% chance to fail one of the saves drops to a 58% chance, but that's still pretty damn good.
How are you using up only a 4th level spell slot for Heightened and Persistent?
Hideous Laughter is normally a 2nd level spell. Persistent is a +2 metamagic adjustment. You would also only have three 4th level spell slots per day. To basically remove a single creatuer from a fight. It's good, but it's not amazing. Wonderful if you have any single enemy encounters, but those were encounters you were likely to win anyways due to the already imbalanced action economy.
So sure, put all your eggs in one basket. It might be a cool trick, but it's not so overwhelmingly good.
Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter.
Spell is good but has some drawbacks as others have mentioned. I usually only put it to use when I play a bard.
Hmm. Hideous laughter specifically states that it doesn't work on creatures with 2 or less Int, but I wonder if metamagic such as Coaxing Spell and Threnodic Spell bypass that restriction. If this is a home game, check with your GM on that, because you can greatly expand the creature types you can affect. You could also go cross-blooded with the Impossible bloodline to affect constructs as well.
RainyDayNinja wrote: Hmm. Hideous laughter specifically states that it doesn't work on creatures with 2 or less Int, but I wonder if metamagic such as Coaxing Spell and Threnodic Spell bypass that restriction. If this is a home game, check with your GM on that, because you can greatly expand the creature types you can affect. You could also go cross-blooded with the Impossible bloodline to affect constructs as well. It's for PFS, so no such luck.
Basically, with kitsune becoming legal to play in a couple of weeks, I was trying to put together the classic kitsune enchanter. I saw fey bloodline raises the DC of enchantment school spells, so I figured that was a given. Then I thought, what if I could focus all of my power on one single spell to make it the best I possibly could. That lead to me trying to find the best spell to juice up, and hideous laughter seemed like the best bet, because I would still need my teammates to kill whatever was on the floor laughing after I had neutralized it. Plus it was low enough level that I could use up higher slots with Heighten Spell to make it even more powerful.
It’s slightly higher level, but I’d nominate Suggestion as a much better choice. It’s incredibly flexible, and the duration is magnificent. It’s language-dependant, true, but a modest investment in linguistics can help there, with Tongues and the like for backup, and it opens the door to Speak with Animals shenanigans.
Keep Calm and Carrion wrote: It’s slightly higher level, but I’d nominate Suggestion as a much better choice. It’s incredibly flexible, and the duration is magnificent. It’s language-dependant, true, but a modest investment in linguistics can help there, with Tongues and the like for backup, and it opens the door to Speak with Animals shenanigans. I considered suggestion, but decided on hideous laughter for a few reasons.
First, it's not language dependent, and this character is going to be a sorcerer who won't have very many skill ranks per level, so I don't know if I'll be able to affordlinguistics every level.
Second, it being a 3rd level spell means the build doesn't come online until 6th level, which is the halfway point of a character's career in PFS. Granted, I could use other enchantment spells in the meantime and still get pretty good mileage out of them with all the DC boosts I would have, but my main shtick won't start happening for 15 scenarios.
Third, there would almost certainly be table variation between GMs in the interpretation of "obviously harmful" and "reasonable suggestion". I'd like to avoid that if possible. Granted, I could just make the suggestion to "take a nap" and the GM would be hard pressed to find that "obviously harmful".
I was also considering taking Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter in hideous laughter and suggestion, respectively. This would mean casting persistent hideous laughter out of 3rd level slots and persistent suggestion out of 4th level slots. And I could still throw out charm person with 1st level slots, regular hideous laughter from 2nd level slots, and charm monster from 5th level slots. This would also free me up from having to Heighten every spell unless I really need something to land.
If you hit dc 29 at lvl 8 in pfs if target isn't immune they will be removed from the fight outside of extreme cases.
On a side note if you can hideous laughter them in water they are dead.
Mojorat wrote: If you hit dc 29 at lvl 8 in pfs if target isn't immune they will be removed from the fight outside of extreme cases.
On a side note if you can hideous laughter them in water they are dead.
Depending on how I build the character, I can either hit DC 29 and only be able to use it on humanoids and animals and a few other select creatures. Or I can hit DC 27 and add undead and constructs to the list of affectable creatures. The build looks like this:
Kitsune sorcerer
All FCB into boosting enchantment spell DC
Level 1: Spell Focus (enchantment)
Level 3: Greater Spell Focus (enchantment)
Level 5: Persistent Spell
Level 7: Heighten Spell
Now, with a level 4 spell slot I can cast a persistent heightened (2) hideous laughter. This spell will have a save DC of:
base: 10
plus: 2 for FCB
plus: 2 for SF and GSF
plus: 4 for spell level (with heighten)
plus: 8 for 26 Cha
plus: 1 for kitsune racial trait
That puts it at 27. If I take crossblooded undead/impossible I can affect corporeal humanoid undead and constructs and force 2 saves every round. If I take fey bloodline I can bump the save DC to 29. I also have the option of going crossblooded fey/undead or fey/impossible, but either fey or both of the others seems like the better deal to me.
It may not be the most effective spell to focus on overall, but it can make for some hilarious moments.
For example, a campaign I ran a few years back where the party wizard used Hideous Laughter on a Manticore about to attack the party and the Manticore rolled a natural 1 on its save, burst into tears from laughing so hard and then fell 40 feet off the broken wall it was perched on.
I didn't want to take a spell that just ended the combat. I wanted something that left something for my party members to do. In this case, mop up the prone guy who can't stop laughing.
I have another character, a heavens oracle, who is going to specialize in color spray with the Awesome Display revelation. At level 2 when she gets the spell, she'll be able to knock creatures of up to 7 HD unconscious if they can't make 2 DC 17 will saves. And she would theoretically be able to stun and blind creatures of up to 9 HD.
That character will be onewho just ends combats. I'm just going to make sure I have other things I can do so that I can make the game fun for my team mates. Although I'll always have a persistent color spray in my back pocket in case I need it.
And even at higher level, like when I can get a headband of alluring charisma +6, I'll be able to knock creatures of up to 10 HD unconscious, and still stun and blind creatures of up to 12 HD. She'll be pretty useless against some of the BBEGs in tier 10-11, but she'll have plenty of buffs she can throw out in those circumstances.
For a bard it is very usefull. I do not suggest investing everything into the spell. But it can be your main weapon.
If you invest heavily into spell casting bard you will have other spells for things immune(buffing allies or hurting enemies) and performances.
Although if you really wanted the spell to hit most things you could do a dual blooded sorcerer and get the seperintine and undead to hit a broader spectrum.
Hmmmm...serpentine bloodline is nice because the magical beasts and such won't get the +4 to their save. Should I couple that with undead, or impossible? With the possibility of lots of constructs in season 6, impossible is very tempting. But undead are ubiquitous.
I definitely do not recommend this.
Hideous Laughter is great for taking single targets out of the fight, or immobilizing targets that you don't want to kill... but they get a +4 to their save if they're not the same type as you.
Any non-humanoids will have an advantage. It's still tough for them to make the save, but it's not automatic.
It's also a poor choice due to the massive amount of mind-affecting immune creatures out there.
I agree with several posters above in that it's a neat trick, but not something to focus your entire character on.
IMO, keep the feats, but get more creative with your Traits.
I will also caution you about the difficulty of playing a Fey Sorcerer to through low levels. Once Sleep becomes useless (level 3 or so), all of that investment into Enchantment will not really pay off until you get Confusion (8th level).
It's tough, especially with the limited spells known of a Kitsune.
Have a backup plan. Use consumables effectively. Be prepared to be sub-par for a while.
I have two fey sorcerers. It can be rough.
Good advice, Tomos. Thanks.
I am curious how many people remember this part of the spell while at the game table.
Quote: A creature whose type is different from the caster's receives a +4 bonus on its saving throw, because humor doesn't “translate” well.
Just coming in to emphasize that it will be very rare for a pathfinder society enemy to make 2 saves against even the DC 27. Look for as much utility as you can so you can be more effective in different situations. I like the 2nd option of working on undead and constructs (this looks even more attractive considering season 6).
Artanthos wrote: I am curious how many people remember this part of the spell while at the game table.
Quote: A creature whose type is different from the caster's receives a +4 bonus on its saving throw, because humor doesn't “translate” well.
I do it all the time when I use it with my Bard, because I like my players to come clean with the drawbacks when I GM, so I offer the same courtesy to the GM when I play.
Combine Hideous Laughter with Aqueous Orb for a nasty combo and good coverage, very few things have both a good will and a good reflex.
Artanthos wrote: I am curious how many people remember this part of the spell while at the game table.
Quote: A creature whose type is different from the caster's receives a +4 bonus on its saving throw, because humor doesn't “translate” well.
I decided to go the serpentice/impossible crossblooded route. This means I will treat constructs, animals, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids as if they were humanoids for the purposes of any mind-affecting spell. This means the spells work and no +4 to their save. I had to choose 2 of impossible, undead, and serpentine bloodlines. As Ragoz said, impossible is hard to pass up with season 6 coming, and I'd wager that we see more animals, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids combined than corporeal humanoid undead.
Also, the impossible bloodline level 3 power means a free Spell Focus feat, so that's very nice.
Plus, I seem to remember a magical item that allows you to use enchantments on undead, so I can always pick that up to fill out the repertoire.
Tomos' advices are really good....although here are some thoughts to consider:
- aside from a few creatures like undead and construct, you won't start to see a lot of creatures with mind immunities before they are around level 9-10, so mostly toward the end of a PFS game...(x-blooded undead/impossible) should raise your effectiveness and I would prioritize that....
- basically try to calculate your chances of the spell working. at 8th level a dc 27 spell is really hard to save against. If you include the +4 save for the enemies of different type, they have to succeed against dc 23. Well for a 10th level creature this means they could probably have between +10 to +14 will save if they have a good save)...their chances of succeeding against a dc 23 persistent spell is about 16% to 36%, still good odds
- maybe it would be worth it to reduce the dc by one (heightened to level 3 instead of 4) and uses some lesser rods to improve effectiveness (persistent, threnodic, etc)
just saw your last post....good choice, and again you could compensate vs undead by using a lesser threnodic rod
Thank you Cuttler. I knew there was some magic item out there that allowed me to target undead.
I could definitely see this character getting both a lesser and regular threnodic rod. Other than a headband of alluring charisma +6 eventually, this character really won't need much in the way of gear. Being cross-blooded I'll probably spend quite a bit on pages of spell knowledge to flesh out my spell list.
With the serpentine and impossible bloodlines, and threnodic rods, is there anything left that I won't be able to affect with hideous laughter? Vermin maybe? Too bad I can't get access to Wild Empathy or I could take the Vermin Heart feat to solve that problem.
The progression will look something like:
Str: 7
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 20
Traits: Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter (hideous laughter)
Level 1: Spell Penetration
Level 3: Spell Focus and Greater Spell (enchantment)
-the Spell Focus comes from the Impossible bloodline level 3 power
-if I can't take Gr Spell Focus now I'll just switch it and Persistent Spell
Level 5: Persistent Spell
Level 7: Heighten Spell
Level 9: Greater Spell Penetration
Level 11: Not even sure what to take here
So I have a couple of questions now:
Does Preferred Spell work for spontaneous casters? If so it would be great to take at 9 so I could throw out persistent heightened hideous laughter as a standard action.
How does a full-round cast time work if I move and then start casting? Do I use my standard from this round and my move from the next and still have a standard left in the next round?
Anybody know of any other magic items that are going to be must have for this build?
If you're going to focus that hard on a spell, make it something like Dominate Monster.
Just one question: Why spell penetration at level 1. this is a good feat, but by-passing SR at 1st level (and probably up to 7-8) is excessively rare)
As for Preferred spell, you don't need it because you are a spontaneous caster But if what you want is a way to cast your metamagic spell in a shorter time, then what you want is:
Spontaneous Metafocus (Ultimate Magic p. 157):
Benefit: Pick a single spell that you are able to cast spontaneously. When you apply metamagic feats to that spell, you can cast the spell using the normal casting time instead of at the slower casting time.
Spontaneous Metafocus is exactly what I was looking for. As for the reason why Spell Penetration at 1st level is because there's nothing else to really take there, and I'm going to take Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration eventually anyway. I will get Spell Focus for free from the level 3 Impossible bloodline power. I won't really need Persistent Spell or Heigten Spell until I can cast hideous laughter, which is at level 4. So picking up Persistent at 5 is soon enough. Now, if you think I don't need Greater Spell Penetration and that I can put Spell Penetration off until level 9, please feel free to recommend a different level 1 feat.
And Zhayne, if you haven't read the thread, this is for a PFS character. Dominate monster is a level 9 spell, which even most home games won't get, much less a PFS character.
After seeing Spontaneous Metafocus and it's pre-reqs, it makes me want to rearrange my feat choices.
Level 1: Persistent Spell
Level 3: Spell Focus (enchantment), Spontaneous Metafocus
Level 5: Greater Spell Focus (enchantment)
Level 7: Heighten Spell
Level 9: Spell Penetration
Level 11: Greater Spell Penetration
Yeah and with the threnodic spell metamagic rods I'll have 6 spells per day that I can affect all undead with. That's even better than the Undead bloodline, which only lets you affect corporeal humanoid undead.
The only problem I have with the 2 bloodlines I'm going with are, my god, do the bonus feats suck. I guess I'll go with Iron Will from the Impossible Bloodline to offset the Will save penalty from being cross-blooded.
The last piece of the puzzle is selecting a last name for the character. I took a fancy to Kyomi as a first name, which is one of the "common female kitsune names" that an SRD website I sometimes use suggested.
Very pleased to be meeting you. I am Hai Huoc Cao. I have joke to tell you. I hope you find it funny. Very funny.
I just need to come up with a list of one-liners I can use when I cast the spell.
You could pick pick fey bloodline to get a +2 to the dc
Finlanderboy wrote: You could pick pick fey bloodline to get a +2 to the dc I was considering that at first. However, with how high the DC is already (27 at level 8 even without Fey bloodline), and the fact that going cross-blooded Serpentine/Impossible allows me to affect animals, magical creatures, monstrous humanoids, and constructs as if they were a humanoid, and the fact that every hideous laughter I cast is going to be persistent, it just wasn't worth it.
One other question I had was about the mechanics of Persistent Spell.
Persistent Spell wrote: Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw. [i wrote: hideous laughter[/i]]This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone. The subject can take no actions while laughing, but is not considered helpless. After the spell ends, it can act normally. On the creature's next turn, it may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If this save is successful, the effect ends. If not, the creature continues laughing for the entire duration. Does this mean that the required save on subsequent rounds is also persistent?
I highly recommend that you purchase some of these:
Page of Spell Knowledge
Especially at low levels.
Without the Human alternate favored class ability and the -1 spell known per level from Crossblooded, your spell list will be very limited.
A few PoSK level 1 will make being low-levels a lot easier for you.
I'd say consider 4x 1st level, 2x 2nd level and maybe 1x 3rd level pages.
That also means that selecting your spells known each level is a critically important. Spend some time on this and make sure that your selections are not only powerful, but flexible.
I suggest searching the boards for sorcerer spells known lists and picking them over. Also read the relevant guides.
Yep, was already looking at the PoSK. I also am quite familiar with the sorcerer spell list as I have a level 5 wizard I play in PFS. This character isn't going to get played for a while because I need to buy Champions of Balance for access to the Impossible bloodline and I'm strapped for cash for a while.
Normally I would say the spell is pretty limiting, but you've put a *lot* into diversifying the spell. Unfortunately that also means you probably can't afford to have a wide selection of enchantment spells, as you'll want to use your other spells to diversify your abilities. Charm person would be great, probably confusion as well. I don't play enchanters so I don't know other unique & useful spells.
Aqueous Orb is a deadly combo here. You'll also want to have at least one good SR:no spell in case of golems. Glitterdust or a pit spell would be useful.
I only recently found out that there are actually rules for using a standard action as a full-round action. It uses your standard action from both rounds, finishing when you use the second. Though that leaves you open to damage and losing the spell.
Paulicus wrote: Normally I would say the spell is pretty limiting, but you've put a *lot* into diversifying the spell. Unfortunately that also means you probably can't afford to have a wide selection of enchantment spells, as you'll want to use your other spells to diversify your abilities. Charm person would be great, probably confusion as well. I don't play enchanters so I don't know other unique & useful spells.
Aqueous Orb is a deadly combo here. You'll also want to have at least one good SR:no spell in case of golems. Glitterdust or a pit spell would be useful.
I only recently found out that there are actually rules for using a standard action as a full-round action. It uses your standard action from both rounds, finishing when you use the second. Though that leaves you open to damage and losing the spell.
The full round cast time isn't going to be a problem. I'll have Spontaneous Metafocus at level 3 to bring metamagicked hideous laughters back down to a standard action. I'm definitely going to need to be super careful with my spell selection, especially since I will be getting a lot less than normal sorcerers.
As Tomos said, though, pages of spell knowledge will be my saving grace.
Both bloodlines have some enchantment spells on them, so I will be getting some enchantment spells for free. I will probably pick up charm person as my sole spell at level 1, then swap it out for something else at level 4 when I can get hypnotism for free from the Serpentine bloodline.
Keep in mind the spell pages get expensive past L2.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: Artanthos wrote: I am curious how many people remember this part of the spell while at the game table.
Quote: A creature whose type is different from the caster's receives a +4 bonus on its saving throw, because humor doesn't “translate” well.
I decided to go the serpentice/impossible crossblooded route. This means I will treat constructs, animals, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids as if they were humanoids for the purposes of any mind-affecting spell. This means the spells work and no +4 to their save. I had to choose 2 of impossible, undead, and serpentine bloodlines. As Ragoz said, impossible is hard to pass up with season 6 coming, and I'd wager that we see more animals, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids combined than corporeal humanoid undead.
Also, the impossible bloodline level 3 power means a free Spell Focus feat, so that's very nice.
Plus, I seem to remember a magical item that allows you to use enchantments on undead, so I can always pick that up to fill out the repertoire. Actually you could wear the ampule of false blood. If you are wearing it at the start of the adventure you are considered to be done with the initial wearing of it. So I would pick my main 2 bloodlines as the least two likely ones and the ampule as the most likely. If you get past the boiler plate info you can take of the ampule if you are fairly sure it won't be needed.
Alternatively you could make the ampule the least likely but do the same scenario.
Thank you Violetta for not reading any of the thread other than my first post. All of your concerns are duly noted and have been addressed.
Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter used to be a great spell.
Just started playing tabletops last February, started with PFS, so I have no clue what you're talking about.
Note, if you take Undead/Serpentine Crossblooded Sorc instead, all your mind effecting compulsions work on Undead, Monstrous Humanoids, Beasts, and Magical Beasts.
That is much better than constructs IMO.
Also, look into Oppressive Boredom.
If you were a Bard with a sorc dip instead I would say Cacophonus Call, but I understand the FCB for 1/4 DC means sorcerer.
TG, serpentine and impossible bloodlines to handle constructs, animals, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids and threnodic rods to handle undead. Why get 2/3 when I get get 3/3?
I hadn't read all the posts... so I only saw you looking at impossible and undead /fey. I wanted to put Serpentine in to get you the other 3 types with no penalties.
I actually did this with a Dirge Bard (for the Undead option) with a single level dip Serpentine/Fey... It's pretty fantastic so far at level 9.
Impossible wasn't available when I built him.
I have to say, if you do have the Fey bloodline in your build, buy a 5k Sorcerer's Robe early on, 3xday use laughing touch on an acid splash... no SR - no save - no action for 1 round. It saved me a few times. Of course, it is 2500g lost when you finally get robes of arcane heritage... but still.
There are also a couple of PFS scenarios I have played that let you trade an item for equal value items... just bank that trade for when you have your Heritage Robes and it's not even a waste.
|
