It's exactly the same as glamered. Even if someone slashes you with a longsword glamered to look like a bouquet of flowers, you don't get to disbelieve. But you still know you got slashed. Similarly the swarm on the suit knows its biting and drawing blood, but it still thinks you have a suit. Probably some suit-beast with skin like a suit. Yum!
*Looks down at slash wound*
"Daaaeeum! Them' flowers bearin' some wicked sharp thorns yo!"
Thanks for the clarification, Mark. That thought had occurred to me.
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let's point it out again:This item doesn't not allow for a diguise check. It takes at least 1d3 × 10 minutes for this item to do ANYTHING and with no bonuses. it has less value than a disguise kit as at least THAT gives a +2 circumstance bonus. So for +150gp you get 2 less bonuses...
Now lets review the can't be disbelieved. Ok, how does that alter you? You didn't make a diguise check so anyone that makes a perception check has no problem seeing and identifying you. So anyone walking by you gets an auto perception check of 10 vs your roll of nothing...
Let's see, they don't have photographic memories, they didn't get a good look at you to start with or they're working from just a vague description-- and what they've got is, "we're looking for a guy dressed all in red"-- but thanks to your sleeves, by the time they get eyes on you, you're wearing black. Sounds like they can probably see you, and are going to conclude you're not the guy they're looking for-- no perception check necessary. Could do that over and over again-- if you're just trying to look like something generically other than what you were before you rounded the corner-- you don't need a disguise check. That won't help you if they already know exactly what you look like and are watching for your face (and your new clothes don't include a mask)-- that is when you might need to take the time and make a disguise check (among other reasons why you might need one). "Disguising" yourself as a generic guardsman need not actually involve the disguise skill itself-- it's a clothing change, and a bluff or acting check to pass yourself off as a new member of the unit (appropriate bonuses-- or more likely, avoiding major penalties-- for wearing the right outfit now apply). Partial bottom line: Not every means to avoid notice, change your appearance, maybe pass yourself as a generic someone-other-than-yourself enough to do the job needs to involve a "disguise check"-- sometimes it really just needs a simple clothing change and maybe a bluff check.
More concrete numbers: straight out of PFS-- Crispin doesn't take penalties for being inappropriately dressed, no matter who he's talking to or where he's at (such as happens when you're dealing with nobility and you're not wearing at least a courtier's outfit), thanks to his sleeves of many garments. And he doesn't suck up circumstance penalties for wearing dark colors in snow fields, bright colors when he's sliding through drab grey alleys, or wearing forest green when he's in a desert. Now for Crispin, the first part I mentioned above probably wouldn't work-- when the guards are told "you need to catch that guy with the kitty ears and tail", a change of clothes won't help. At that-- even though it's not reflected in any kind of specific skill boost, Crispin likes being fashionable, likes being seen in the latest finery, likes having a new outfit for every party... add it up, and he's saved a LOT of gold on new clothes over the time that must be passing between scenarios (along with the many scenarios he's been in that have involved social events since Crispin bought his sleeves)...
What it still really comes down to-- is not everything that is worthwhile in a role-playing game is necessarily quantifiable in bonus and penalty numbers. However, that seems like it's an alien concept in the games you play-- if so, I don't think I would enjoy your games much at all. Good thing there's plenty of room in the world for many different styles of play to suit players with different preferences.
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I'm really very surprised.
Not at the ruling, but at everyone focussing on the disguise skill, rather than the place this item really shines: the bluff skill.
It's a lot easier to bluff someone that you're a member of the King's personal guard when you're wearing their livery. Negating up to a -10 penalty easier. And possibly providing up to +10 bonus due to "convincing proof".
Seriously, bluff is where it's at.
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You know what can grant me a bonus to just about any skill?
A Masterwork Tool. 50gp.+2.
Oh, and it can add flavor too.
I don't need to take time to convince my DM, or expect table variation in PFS.
I can have a number of them too. 8, in fact, for the price of this.
That's 8 skills, with a +2 bonus.
All full of flavor, and roleplaying opportunities.
Don't stick your nose in the air.
If you are a good enough roleplayer, you can take a mechanical bonus, and still make it flavorful.
These need not be separate.
Don't anyone dare say they are a better roleplayer, just because they got the expensive item with no mechanical advantage, over the reasonably priced item, with a mechanical advantage, that fill the same damn roll.
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If I get the Sleeves, I can change outfits for every occasion, every day. Brilliant for a social campaign and on countless occasion in about every other campaign. I don't know why I'd need a second mechanical benefit for a mere 200 GP on top of that. If I already have some other bracer in use, it costs another 100 GP more to get the Sleeves built in on top of that other magic item.
Methinks some people want too much for a 200 GP magic item. It already is fantastically useful for that price.
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I can see why some others may like it.
I, in my own way, still sort of like it.
I still say it should, no matter how minor, provide some kind of bonus.
Also, seriously, stop accusing others that they suck at roleplay, and have no imagination, just because they like bonus, with their flavor.
Nobody gets mad because someone wants a little peanut butter with their chocolate. Neither should any of you.
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Our group once had their asses handed to them by skinsaw men. I can only imagine how differently that battle would have gone if we all looked like the masked skinsaw men themselves!
I can't believe that people actually believe the item is absolutely useless just because it doesn't have a set numerical bonus listed in its description.
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Well, that's the problem with RAW. If the rules don't say you get a bonus, then you don't.
That's not a problem with "RAW", that's a problem with your incomplete assessment of it.
You're looking at your (correct) observation that the item does not list a specific numeric bonus to a specific skill. You are then making the (incorrect) conclusion that the item therefore does nothing.
The error is the belief that an effect which doesn't list a "+X" has no effect. This is wrong.
You know what's also part of "RAW"? This:
"The wearer of these sleeves can, when she slips them on, choose to transform her current garments into any other nonmagical set of clothing."
That's "RAW". Now, maybe your campaigns never ever have a situation where it matters what you look like. But there are plenty of situations that can come up where you have a situation like "The NPCs react this way if the PCs are dressed like this, but react this other way if they're dressed like that."
For instance, if the situation is that a pompous NPC's starting attitude toward anyone dressed like a common traveler is Unfriendly but his starting attitude toward anyone dressed in the latest fashions is Friendly, then the "RAW" of the sleeves can take days off your efforts to ask for the NPC's help.
You say there's no listed bonus to a check, but I'm pointing out that the sleeves can accomplish things that don't even INVOLVE a check by meeting a criteria.
And that's RAW: if you're in a situation where you need to be dressed like X in order to do Y, the RAW of the sleeves is that they satisfy that requirement.
It is rules-as-written that the sleeves let you look like you're wearing any outfit you want. Therefore, in any situation in which the outfit you wear is going to make a difference, the sleeves have an effect.
The exact nature of the effect depends on the situation, which is why no specific bonus is listed. It might not be granting a bonus: it might be removing the "unbelievable lie" penalty, it might be affecting starting attitudes, it might be making it possible for you to make a check in the first place.
Part of "RAW" is that the item DOES WHAT IT SAYS IT DOES. And in some situations, the RAW effect of the item will make a difference - possibly a much bigger difference than a +2 to a skill.
Seriously, bluff is where it's at.Good point. Now I'm definitely getting this for my ranger. Just have to figure out how to hide my animal companion without burning a Carry Companion scroll every time.
Hosteling Armor Property has you covered for the flat price of 7,500 GP. Though, you could get quite a few Carry Companion Scrolls (or better yet a Wand) for that price.
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You know what can grant me a bonus to just about any skill?
A Masterwork Tool. 50gp.+2.
Oh, and it can add flavor too.
I don't need to take time to convince my DM, or expect table variation in PFS.
I can have a number of them too. 8, in fact, for the price of this.
That's 8 skills, with a +2 bonus.
All full of flavor, and roleplaying opportunities.
Don't stick your nose in the air.
If you are a good enough roleplayer, you can take a mechanical bonus, and still make it flavorful.
These need not be separate.
Don't anyone dare say they are a better roleplayer, just because they got the expensive item with no mechanical advantage, over the reasonably priced item, with a mechanical advantage, that fill the same damn roll.
First: Not, "just about any skill". Try "Just about any craft skill". There's a lot of professions, a few performance skills, and a lot of other skills-- for which no tool apply. There are other things which may or may not provide bonuses-- but they're not tools, masterwork or otherwise. And, the masterwork tools necessary for a bonus for Disable Device will cost you 100 GP, not 50.
Second: Your math is off. 4x50=200. Not 8x50, which = 400.
Third: The Masterwork tools you cite can neither add nor take away flavor from the game. How the player has his/her character use them is what may add or take away flavor. But yes, they can be used to add flavor by a player who wants to roleplay.
Fourth: Naw, no one should "say they're a better roleplayer, just because they got the expensive item with no {specified, spelled-out-in-so-many-words} mechanical advantage..."-- it's how the player has his/her character use the items he/she has (whether there are clearly-attached mechanical advantages or not) that may exhibit excellent role-playing (or the lack thereof)-- but it's not the sort of thing one should be boasting about anyway.
The problem I think for most of us on the other side of the argument, is all the posts made on this thread about how the sleeves are utterly useless, in no way shape or form possibly worth their cost, cannot do anything worthwhile for you-- etc etc ad nauseam-- because there is no specific, stated clearly in black-and-white in the item description, mechanical bonus attached to this piece of gear. And when someone takes the argument that far, as some here have done, IMO that does display a certain lack of appreciation for the possibilities inherent in the use of the item. It also IMO displays a lack of appreciation for the point of view that some things (including some situational/circumstantial modifiers) have to be left up to the GM's judgment (otherwise we'd need much much longer sets of rulebooks and tables just to list out every last little possibility and variation that the collective imaginations of every GM and Player can come up with).
If that applies to you-- then yes, I personally don't follow the same approach to the game that you take, and I don't think I'd enjoy your games. Good thing there's room for all sorts of different players & GMs & games in the world, and one can find groups with whom one's approach is fully compatible and avoid those where one really wouldn't fit in so well. It's still not a personal attack... so please stop trying to make it out that way.
A lot of my characters carry around a few different outfits to blend in to crowds, adapt to different social situations, or assist bluff checks:
Courtier's outfit*: 30gp, 6 lbs
Noble's outfit*: 75 gp, 10 lbs
Soldier's uniform: 1 gp, 6 lbs
Peasant's outfit: 1 sp, 2 lbs
Total: 106.1 gp, 24 lbs
Sleeves of many garments*: 200 gp, 1 lb
A drop of 23 lbs is well worth an extra 100 gp, for me.
Other benefits:
Can get these long before I can afford a handy haversack
No extra weight/bulk taking up one of the side compartments in my handy haversack once I can afford one
Can change garments in a single round (move action to take off, standard to put back on) instead of minutes (and I don't need help)
No dry-cleaning fees
Sleeves of many garments (200 gp) vs. hat of disguise (1800 gp):
Only need 5 fame to get these in PFS (vs 13 fame)
No time limit (vs 10 minutes, per the disguise self spell cast at 1st level)
Can't be disbelieved
Question:
Based on the reading here that sleeves of many garments don't specifically state that they give you a bonus on any skills, I was reading up on Hat of Disguise and the Disguise skill in general.
Can someone explain how they use the Disguise skill, overall? There's nothing in that skill description that states any specific mechanical benefit to disguise: you don't get bonuses on diplomacy or bluff or intimidate or stealth. All it does is make you look like someone else. So if a GM won't give circumstance bonuses or reduce penalties on these skills for sleeves of many garments, what bonus/penalty reduction do you get from Disguise?
*additional money/weight for jewelry not included, since it applies to both
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The Sleeves of Many Garments also has no limited duration, like the Hat of Disguise does.
I still haven't seen any convincing proof anywhere that a hat of disguise even has a duration, but that's a discussion for another thread.
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First: Not, "just about any skill". Try "Just about any craft skill". There's a lot of professions, a few performance skills, and a lot of other skills-- for which no tool apply. There are other things which may or may not provide bonuses-- but they're not tools, masterwork or otherwise. And, the masterwork tools necessary for a bonus for Disable Device will cost you 100 GP, not 50.
Second: Your math is off. 4x50=200. Not 8x50, which = 400.
Third: The Masterwork tools you cite can neither add nor take away flavor from the game. How the player has his/her character use them is what may add or take away flavor. But yes, they can be used to add flavor by a player who wants to roleplay.
Fourth: Naw, no one should "say they're a better roleplayer, just because they got the expensive item with no {specified, spelled-out-in-so-many-words} mechanical advantage..."-- it's how the player has his/her character use the items he/she has (whether there are clearly-attached mechanical advantages or not) that may exhibit excellent role-playing (or the lack thereof)-- but it's not the sort of thing one should be boasting about anyway.
The problem I think for most of us on the other side of the argument, is all the posts...
1) You are mixing Masterwork artisan's tools, with the Masterwork Tool.
Not the same same thing.
2) Yeah, I mussed my math. It's still 4 skills.
3) Same with the Sleeves. One just happens to be cheaper.
4) It was outright noted that those who thought it should have some kind of bonus, are lacking in imagination, and any one in a roleplay heavy game would find this a must.
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1) You are mixing Masterwork artisan's tools, with the Masterwork Tool.Not the same same thing.
2) Yeah, I mussed my math. It's still 4 skills.
3) Same with the Sleeves. One just happens to be cheaper.
4) It was outright noted that those who thought it should have some kind of bonus, are lacking in imagination, and any one in a roleplay heavy game would find this a must.
1) You're right, not quite the same thing, but-- you would still have to explain what sort of tool you've managed to acquire that will actually grant some sort of bonus to your skill check. For many skills, the choice of tool is pretty obvious; for other skills, there either isn't an applicable tool, or the "tool" will only be of advantage for particular, limited uses of that skill. Also, can't use this item to replace existing tool kits, so your disable device set will still cost 100 GP. An example for where the masterwork tool falters, I think-- Just what tool are you going to buy to give yourself a +2 on Perform-Sing checks? For Sense Motive checks?
2) :D (sorry, had to pick on you on the math part)
3) Yes. (cheaper is relevant to the fact that most tools will be applicable to more limited circumstances...). Flavor depends on how the player-character uses it, in both cases.
4) Not by me. I'm against the idea that it's useless/worthless because it doesn't have a particular, specific bonus attached in the description-- it doesn't need one to still be cool and useful; whether it should have one attached to it or not is to me a separate question. There is a clear difference between arguing that it's useless, and acknowledging that it still has uses as is but that it should have a bonus-- and I can't really find fault with the argument that it should have a bonus, I just find fault with the argument some have made that it's useless without one.
On that separate question, with the sleeves you can always have the right sort of clothes for whatever social environment you find yourself in (avoiding a penalty because you have the correct tools is the rules-analogy here); the argument for a bonus is that in effect it's like a masterwork tool (when used appropriately) for always being dressed for the best effect. I could see that.
Also, is it a must-have? Depends on the character-- I have characters who don't care about fashion or style, disregard the problems of dealing with nobility if one is not properly dressed, and just want their clothes to be clean and serviceable (which they accomplish with 'Prestidigitation' and 'Mending' cantrips). They don't care about the sleeves. On the other end of the spectrum-- I have a character who doesn't bother with the sleeves-- because she's paid a lot more gold to purchase 'Living Garments' (which do provide a +5 to Diplomacy checks, among many other things they do for her).
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It's exactly the same as glamered. Even if someone slashes you with a longsword glamered to look like a bouquet of flowers, you don't get to disbelieve. But you still know you got slashed. Similarly the swarm on the suit knows its biting and drawing blood, but it still thinks you have a suit. Probably some suit-beast with skin like a suit. Yum!*Looks down at slash wound*
"Daaaeeum! Them' flowers bearin' some wicked sharp thorns yo!"
Thanks for the clarification, Mark. That thought had occurred to me.
Now I have to get a glamered sword for one of my characters... just so she can make deadly attacks with a 'bouqet of flowers'.... that is just too good an image to let go of.
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You seem very angry with me, but you also seem to agree with me.Well, that's the problem with RAW. If the rules don't say you get a bonus, then you don't.That's not a problem with "RAW", that's a problem with your incomplete assessment of it.
You're looking at your (correct) observation that the item does not list a specific numeric bonus to a specific skill. You are then making the (incorrect) conclusion that the item therefore does nothing.
The error is the belief that an effect which doesn't list a "+X" has no effect. This is wrong....
Wrong on both counts. :)
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Oh text!
How you so poorly you display tone.
You take that back!
This is why I hate illusions.
Now to create a transmutative version of this spell!
Scribble scribble.
If you can't trust your GM in situations that lack carved-in-stone rules, you'll have larger problems than this. (This is what makes PFS a fundamentally flawed concept.)
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If you can't trust your GM in situations that lack carved-in-stone rules, you'll have larger problems than this. (This is what makes PFS a fundamentally flawed concept.)
Leave your angst at the door. There are literally tens of thousands of people that enjoy PFS. It's not nearly as flawed as you imply it is.
I enjoyed my stint as well. It is quite fun despite the flaws.
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I never cared about the Swarmsuit, which, seemed to be the issue.
Having an outfit that actually kept me warm, cool, or whatever, was what I got this for. Now it doesn't do any of that.
You know, if it just had a list of outfits, it would transformed into, and functioned as, I would be totally cool with it.
From the way its worded, it seems like u would or still could get bonuses for visuals (bonuses to bluff, intimidate, etc) but wouldnt get bonuses for physical things such as swarmsuit or bonuses against weather etc.
From the way its worded, it seems like u would or still could get bonuses for visuals (bonuses to bluff, intimidate, etc) but wouldnt get bonuses for physical things such as swarmsuit or bonuses against weather etc.
I don't see why you wouldn't.
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Swarmsuit definitely not, but if your Sleeves still "feel" like a warm and fuzzy Cold Weather Outfit, I don't see why you couldn't still benefit from it.
Likewise, if they transform into a Hot Weather Outfit, which is basically just open and breathable, I don't see why you couldn't benefit from that, either.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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What the hell is the bargain?
Did I miss something about the 200gp sweater that can't even keep me warm?
Not everything has to be a mechanic cheap deal.
I've gotten these for simply the "it is the right look for the right occasion" effect. So I didn't need to go out an buy a bunch of clothes. The effect at 200 gp is still cheaper than it probably should be.
Look at the spoons that feed you, at over 5,000 gp iirc they are way way way overpriced. But I still know people who buy them. They could have bought enough food to take their character to 12th level for hundreds of gp. Instead they spent a great deal on a spoon because it is cool.
You are totally discounting the cool factor of these sleeves.
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What the hell is the bargain?
Did I miss something about the 200gp sweater that can't even keep me warm?
Not everything has to be a mechanic cheap deal.
I've gotten these for simply the "it is the right look for the right occasion" effect. So I didn't need to go out an buy a bunch of clothes. The effect at 200 gp is still cheaper than it probably should be.
Look at the spoons that feed you, at over 5,000 gp iirc they are way way way overpriced. But I still know people who buy them. They could have bought enough food to take their character to 12th level for hundreds of gp. Instead they spent a great deal on a spoon because it is cool.
You are totally discounting the cool factor of these sleeves.
The Clear Spindle Ioun Stone allows you to go without Food, or Water, for 4,000gp, and when combined with a Wayfinder, gives you Protection from possession and mental control.
Way cooler.
What the hell is the bargain?
Did I miss something about the 200gp sweater that can't even keep me warm?
Not everything has to be a mechanic cheap deal.
I've gotten these for simply the "it is the right look for the right occasion" effect. So I didn't need to go out an buy a bunch of clothes. The effect at 200 gp is still cheaper than it probably should be.
Look at the spoons that feed you, at over 5,000 gp iirc they are way way way overpriced. But I still know people who buy them. They could have bought enough food to take their character to 12th level for hundreds of gp. Instead they spent a great deal on a spoon because it is cool.
You are totally discounting the cool factor of these sleeves.
The Clear Spindle Ioun Stone allows you to go without Food, or Water, for 4,000gp, and when combined with a Wayfinder, gives you Protection from possession and mental control.
Way cooler.
Or the Ring of Sustenance for 2000 gp, which lets you go without food or water, and cuts your required sleep time down to two hours.
Really, pricing of magic items seems to be more than a bit random. Probably not helped by how many items/prices are legacies from earlier editions of D&D.
The spoon does feed 4 people.
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Am I missing a line somewhere that says "THIS ITEM CANNOT PROVIDE MECHANICAL BENEFITS?" People in this thread seem to be referencing this line in their whining, but I can't seem to find this line anywhere.
Just because the item doesn't give you a "+2 enhancement bonus on disguise checks" doesn't mean your die rolls will never be impacted by it. Game Masters exist, I promise. If you want to play Solitaire Pathfinder and never have a GM, using only the mechanical bonuses baked into the stats, be my guest. Judgment calls by the GM are as integral to gameplay as twenty-sided dice. More integral, even.
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Ah, but it doesn't say it can provide a bonus.
Generally, Pathfinder is a permissive game.
It's much easier for DM to say a listed bonus doesn't apply, due to circumstance, than to say an unlisted bonus does apply, due to circumstance.
This is much more true in PFS, when being conservative is usually the best route.
A PFS Judge that is suspected of player favoritism, can lead to very uncomfortable situations.
I do not understand why they do not get a save if they interact with the glamered object. Glamer has no special wording to state there is no will save to disbelieve. In fact, there are a number of glamer spells with a will save to disbelieve.
I do not understand why they do not get a save if they interact with the glamered object. Glamer has no special wording to state there is no will save to disbelieve. In fact, there are a number of glamer spells with a will save to disbelieve.
The glamered weapon and armor properties, however, do mention it.
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I'm pretty sure anything can provide a bonus in the right circumstances. That kind of bonus is in fact called a circumstance bonus.
However, I would expect the sleeves to more often prevent a penalty than provide a bonus. If I'm going to infiltrate the loyal order of the water buffaloes, unless I get a special hat I'm going to be at a disadvantage. These sleeves are an easy way to acquire the necessary costume. They aren't any better than using the right mundane costume, but they are faster and ready to go anytime.
Ah, but it doesn't say it can provide a bonus.
Generally, Pathfinder is a permissive game.
It's much easier for DM to say a listed bonus doesn't apply, due to circumstance, than to say an unlisted bonus does apply, due to circumstance.
This is much more true in PFS, when being conservative is usually the best route.
A PFS Judge that is suspected of player favoritism, can lead to very uncomfortable situations.
I think that is a fair point to raise. While the transmutation vs. illusion issue was cleared up, the item is still going to be prone to a lot of table variation. That probably can't be helped, though. Not without making the item entry a lot longer and/or changing the disguise rules.