I've been pondering how to build a good melee druid in case my main dies.
I chose Saurian Shaman because it's cool/good and because ''I'm a dinosaur, roar!''.
I have most of the attributes and feats in place like natural spell, power attack and so on forth. But I'd like help with what other feats to choose and if any good tactic advice from players who've seen or played a melee shape shift druid.
Also what items to choose and how do I boost my AC in animal forms since I lose the armor bonus? Or is there someway to get your armor's AC into it?
All official Paizo published material d20pfsrd is allowed.
Here's the druid with custom race from our homebrew:
Custom Race
+2 strength and wisdom, -2 Intelligence
1 extra feat
5 electricity resistance and other random stuff
Druid Saurian Shaman
25 point buy
Str: 16+2
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Wis: 13+2
Int: 10-2
Cha: 12
1: Power attack, ?
2
3: ?
4
5: Natural Spell
6
7: ?
8
9: ?
Maybe I should get toughness or spell focus conjuration and augmented summoning?
I'm unsure of improved grapple and other combat feats beyond power attack, also is powerful form a worthy investment?
All help is appreciated, thanks.
I'd get the summoning fetas, yes. They are definitly worth it as you do not neccessarily need many feats to pull of the melee druid and will give you a lot of flexibility. You can summon a lot of different critters as standard action with that archetype.
Make something similar to my character, Nudel the Devourer, but maybe use stegosaurus instead of behemoth hippopotamus.
She is capable of 310+ damage in a single strike. Nothing says "Melee Saurian" quite as well as that I think.
you cant take power attack at level one due to your BAB, but it wouldnt be a bad idea to just grab the first two summoning feats then. Or spell focus: conj and combat casting
Yeah summoning feats sound good, focus (conjuration), augmented summoning and superior summoning? Sounds good?
Don't I need toughness to pull off a melee druid?
I mean since I'm no barbarian with high hp and dr, nor am I sword and board fighter or paladin with high AC.
you cant take power attack at level one due to your BAB, but it wouldnt be a bad idea to just grab the first two summoning feats then. Or spell focus: conj and combat casting
Oh yeah, thanks for noticing :) Well might as well take power attack at lvl 3. Do you have any other feat suggestions for a melee druid? For the actual melee etc.
Make something similar to my character, Nudel the Devourer, but maybe use stegosaurus instead of behemoth hippopotamus.
She is capable of 310+ damage in a single strike. Nothing says "Melee Saurian" quite as well as that I think.
Hell yeah! I once saw Nudel before when I was looking at your other characters :) great characters, especially the elven duelist is great.
But does it work with a full druid build? I mean ofc won't get as high dmg but does the improved vital strike + strongjaw work with let's say an allosaur or a tyrannosaur rex?
Also do you know how I can get Gargantuan size with shapeshift? By not using enlarge person spell I mean.
So the new build idea would be something like this:
Custom Race
+2 strength and wisdom, -2 Intelligence
1 extra feat
5 electricity resistance and other random stuff
Druid Saurian Shaman
25 point buy
Str: 16+2
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Wis: 13+2
Int: 10-2
Cha: 12
1: Spell focus (conjuration), Augment Summoning
2
3: Power Attack
4
5: Natural Spell
6
7: Combat Casting or Planar Wild Shape?
8
9: Powerful Form
Animal Companion: Giant Chameleon (note: GM allows me to select reptiles also as an animal companion instead of only dinosaurs)
Any thoughts on this or how to improve the druid?
Especially item suggestions. We will have plenty of wealth in our games, since our GM does not abide by the wealth per level rules and rewards creativity if one wants to get rich.
Bump?
You could pick superior summons, as it's in line with the other summoning feats and allows for more summoned creatures.
You also get a couple of bonus feats at 9, 13 and 17, chosen from a small list, but most aren't too good and you already have power attack. Although, vital strike is on the list, so you could go with Ravingdork's idea of a nudel-like build. Too bad you can't wildshape into a t-rex, as such a bite (double strength and tree damage dice sets) would be deadly. If you're going this route, devastating strike might be good, as it gives a damage bonus on vital strike.
As for the companion: the deinonychus and allosaurus are generally considered best, so I would look at one of those, unless you have a special reason for the chameleon, in which case you can forget this paragraph ;)
Hope this helped!
Arcturus.
Hey, yeah it helped but why can't a druid turn into a t-rex? Is it because a t-rex is gargantuan or? Also I don't get it why the druid's shape change doesn't upgrade beyond lvl 12 :S
I think I'll try with the nudel-like with vital/improved vital.
Yeah the animal companion is not set in stone but I like the versatility the chameleon brings to the table but I will keep in mind with those two dinosaurs.
saurian melee build:
1: conj focus + aug summon
3: power att
5: natural spell
7: planar wild shape
9: free: vital strike, either toghness or rime spellattack action:
rnd 1: summon a lizard as standard action and move to position with pet
rnd 2: cast strong jaw
rnd 3: attack once, game over.
Lvl 9 vital strike definietly.
Summon a lizard? You mean any summon?
Also why does strong jaw end it automatically? I mean I don't understand how you calculate it very far, like huge 2d6 bite damage turns into 4d6 and well with vital strike even further or?
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You are not eligible to get natural spellcasting at level 5 since the saurian shaman does not get wildshape til level 6. (there's a faq)
Also, I found wild speech very useful- with a limited number of uses of wildshape and with planar wildshape costing 2 uses, I was reluctant to drop dino form to talk to the party.
Being able to talk to folks as a dino fixed that for me.
Quick wild shape also helped.
If I wasn't already in dino form, it meant 3 rnds before I got in the battle.
1 to shape, 1 to buff, and then enter in.
Quick shape meant a lesser form, but getting stuck in quicker.
The polymorph rules says all constant effect except armor bonuses still work in altered form.
The wild enchantment allows you to keep all of your armor bonuses.
My GM let the bracers of defense count in wild shape even though they give an armor bonus.
A rod of extend will increase the duration of greater magic fang, barkskin, and longatrider. Use these every day.
When you get wild shape at 6th, you already count as 8th level for dino forms, so you already have all the beast shapes you will ever get.
This can feel a bit behind after a few levels as new forms do not open up.
You are not eligible to get natural spellcasting at level 5 since the saurian shaman does not get wildshape til level 6. (there's a faq)
Also, I found wild speech very useful- with a limited number of uses of wildshape and with planar wildshape costing 2 uses, I was reluctant to drop dino form to talk to the party.
Being able to talk to folks as a dino fixed that for me.Quick wild shape also helped.
If I wasn't already in dino form, it meant 3 rnds before I got in the battle.
1 to shape, 1 to buff, and then enter in.
Quick shape meant a lesser form, but getting stuck in quicker.The polymorph rules says all constant effect except armor bonuses still work in altered form.
The wild enchantment allows you to keep all of your armor bonuses.
My GM let the bracers of defense count in wild shape even though they give an armor bonus.A rod of extend will increase the duration of greater magic fang, barkskin, and longatrider. Use these every day.
When you get wild shape at 6th, you already count as 8th level for dino forms, so you already have all the beast shapes you will ever get.
This can feel a bit behind after a few levels as new forms do not open up.
Where does it read that you do not get wild shape until level 6?
It says you're counted as -2 level with other forms and +2 with dinosaur/reptilian forms. So at lvl 8 you get the dire tiger and other lvl 6 forms normally but you get level 10 forms for dinosaurs.Also why wouldn't you get new forms open up? They just open up more slowly.
Good point on the armor, need to get the wild enchantment or ask GM for bracers bonus at least but I think I'll go for the armor wild ench.
Rod of extend, never came to mind ^^ that's a great choice.
Would love the quick wild shape but I think it's a feat tax this way :S
Same goes for the speech, but I guess that would be useful. The talking dinosaur reminds me of some old movie with a dinosaur playing golf...
Remember that greater magic fang is an hour per level.
There is a feat that makes your wild shape celestial or fiendish, including a smite.
I suggest Allosaurus wildshape pounce hilarity.
Hell yeah! I once saw Nudel before when I was looking at your other characters :) great characters, especially the elven duelist is great.
I'm glad you're enjoying them.
But does it work with a full druid build? I mean ofc won't get as high dmg but does the improved vital strike + strongjaw work with let's say an allosaur or a tyrannosaur rex?
You won't get the max damage aspect of it, since you need the rage class feature to get the Furious Finish feat, but you should still be able to manage lots of damage dice (though dinosaurs tend to get slightly less damage dice than the behemoth hippopotamus).
Also do you know how I can get Gargantuan size with shapeshift? By not using enlarge person spell I mean.
I know of no such methods that will allow for that (enlarge person definitely won't work as you can't stack size-altering effects, including polymorph effects like wildshape). There are multiple ways to increase your effective size in regards to your natural attack damage, however, most of which Nudel already utilizes.
Remember that greater magic fang is an hour per level.
There is a feat that makes your wild shape celestial or fiendish, including a smite.
I suggest Allosaurus wildshape pounce hilarity.
Yeah 5h at 5th lvl and lesser extend rod doubles it + it's cheap.
Hmm my inner optimizer cries at the Allosaurus when I've seen the tyrannosaurus and hippo :S
I wouldn't bother with combat casting. You hopefully will be able to buff up and then go to town. Planar wildshape is great.
Also if you are just looking to optimize, you can dump CHA.
Strictly RAW Saurian gains Wildshape at 4 and then progresses slower when not changing into a dinosaur.. There are many threads discussing this but the general opinion, including some developers I think, is that RAI you get Wildshape at level 6.
Where does it read that you do not get wild shape until level 6?
It's not so bad. I have a 3rd level Saurian Shaman in PFS and Totem Transformation is pretty strong.
You have to wait, but the reward is awesome.
Ah alright, what's your opinion on shape shift with Saurian shaman?
I wouldn't bother with combat casting. You hopefully will be able to buff up and then go to town. Planar wildshape is great.
Also if you are just looking to optimize, you can dump CHA.
Strictly RAW Saurian gains Wildshape at 4 and then progresses slower when not changing into a dinosaur.. There are many threads discussing this but the general opinion, including some developers I think, is that RAI you get Wildshape at level 6.
Might dump cha but dunno if I get good rolls or go with point buy.
I think that it doesnt matter if I get it lvl 4 or 6 since we will be lvl 6 at least when I use the druid.
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I wouldn't bother with combat casting. You hopefully will be able to buff up and then go to town. Planar wildshape is great.
Also if you are just looking to optimize, you can dump CHA.
Strictly RAW Saurian gains Wildshape at 4 and then progresses slower when not changing into a dinosaur.. There are many threads discussing this but the general opinion, including some developers I think, is that RAI you get Wildshape at level 6.
No.
There are no opinions on this since February.There are only the rules and houserules.
From my perspective, dumping Cha on a class that relies on Handle Animal checks to keep their pet dinosaur from eating everyone in the party is a poor choice.
I think that Combat Casting is certainly a valid choice for a full-caster that will probably be trying to cast spells in melee at some point.
It's not a stellar feat, but a Druid is much more likely than most of his peers to need it.
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I thought bumping the animal companions Int to 3 negated the need for handle animal checks? maybe i misread that though...
Never seen anything to that effect.
Bumping the Int to 3 opens up all skills and any feats that it qualifies for.An animal companion with Int 3 can learn a language with Linguistics, so maybe you can convince your GM to give you a circumstance bonus on Handle Animal if you speak the same language?
Unless an intelligent animal is somehow gained with the Leadership feat, RAW is that you always have to make the Handle Animal check.
No.
There are no opinions on this since February.
There are only the rules and houserules.From my perspective, dumping Cha on a class that relies on Handle Animal checks to keep their pet dinosaur from eating everyone in the party is a poor choice.
I think that Combat Casting is certainly a valid choice for a full-caster that will probably be trying to cast spells in melee at some point.
It's not a stellar feat, but a Druid is much more likely than most of his peers to need it.
Yeah I think combat casting might be worth it as well, maybe should pick it later on. Like level 11 maybe?
Since I am going to go for ''the spirit of the beast'' style melee druid I don't think I need it too early since I won't be relying too much on spellcasting but later on it comes more and more necessary.
Any opinions on druid shifters at later levels?
I'm glad you're enjoying them.You won't get the max damage aspect of it, since you need the rage class feature to get the Furious Finish feat, but you should still be able to manage lots of damage dice (though dinosaurs tend to get slightly less damage dice than the behemoth hippopotamus).
I know of no such methods that will allow for that (enlarge person definitely won't work as you can't stack size-altering effects, including polymorph effects like wildshape). There are multiple ways to increase your effective size in regards to your natural attack damage, however, most of which Nudel already utilizes.
Yeah, won't get max damage but will get full spellcasting and druid progression. Hippo is the king of shape's but allosaurus is good too.
Do you think it would be a balanced houserule if druid at lvl 10 could use beast shape for tyrannosaurus or other gargantuan animals? Or maybe at level 12?
Not...really. I played a Dino Shaman (a lizardfolk one, at that) and early access to huge animals was a beast of an ability. The ability to summon Young template creatures was awesome (hello, ankylosaurus), with augment summons taking almost all the penalties away. You get all of that, plus Druid spellcasting.
Allosaurus is one of you primary combat forms, with its smaller cousins being used when your indoors. Other forms are used as the situation required it; I got a lot of mileage out of creatures with swim and climb speeds.
I took down a t-rex while in ankylosaurus form. Other than swallow whole, the Sharptooth really ain't all that compared to you.
I never took wildspeech, but my group had methods around that. Natural spell however, is important.
Vital strike is a good feat chain for a wildshaped primary brawler. A lot of animals have only one attack anyhow. Strong Jaw plus vital strike is fun.
Be wary of Improved Natural attack. It applies only to one kind of natural attack (claws, or bite, or slam). I almost took it, but couldn't decide on claws or bite. It ended up not being needed.
Bracers of armor should work; its a constant bonus that isn't armor. See if your GM will allow armor qualities applied to your bracers, if s/he allows bracers of armor to transfer over. Some of them may be very helpful.
Wildshape combat comes to a close as soon as spellcasting starts to take over combat, but its stay relevant when you consider its non-damaging roles. Movement remains important, and flying forms railing magic down on foes is almost to be expected from druids. The ability to go anywhere and every where at a moments notice is a boon.
Summon. You get to summon as a standard action, provided its reptiles and dinos only. This is huge. Summon some help, have the, charge/pounce the bad guys, and then move just outside of (your) reach of the bad guys. Maul any who provoke attacks of opportunity. Combat Reflexes help if you got the dex for it (after wildshape, its not likely).
On summoning: the young templated creatures will almost always be better than the ones that come naturally on your list. Yes, you can apply the advanced template and giant template (and both) on your creatures, but they will be lacking in hit points. However, if you want to ball some one up in a knot, an advanced giant constrictor snake is one way to go.
Do your GM a favor, and build the stats for the dinos you will mostly likely summon. Apply augment summons and the young template when needed. If you use Maptools or the like, build the token and save it to your computer. Drag and drop instead of screwing with the buttons.
I think mythic wild shape allows larger and smaller forms, but don't bet on it.
Not...really. I played a Dino Shaman (a lizardfolk one, at that) and early access to huge animals was a beast of an ability. The ability to summon Young template creatures was awesome (hello, ankylosaurus), with augment summons taking almost all the penalties away. You get all of that, plus Druid spellcasting.
** spoiler omitted **...
Definetly good point, won't miss the t-rex too much :p Won't take wildspeech, let them figure out what I'm going to do.
Vital strike definetly but it's lvl 9 and 11 most likely.
The spellcasting going past shape change won't bother since I doubt we will play much past lvl 12 etc.
Good tip, will definetly make stats for all my summons with templates etc.
Won't go mythic so dunno about that.
Thanks for all the help, got any other feat suggestions?
I thought bumping the animal companions Int to 3 negated the need for handle animal checks? maybe i misread that though...Never seen anything to that effect.
Bumping the Int to 3 opens up all skills and any feats that it qualifies for.
An animal companion with Int 3 can learn a language with Linguistics, so maybe you can convince your GM to give you a circumstance bonus on Handle Animal if you speak the same language?Unless an intelligent animal is somehow gained with the Leadership feat, RAW is that you always have to make the Handle Animal check.
I guess this part from Treantmonk's guide had me a bit confused
1) Ability increase: Every 4 levels your companion gets to increase an ability score. I recommend an increase in Int to 3. This will give your animal companion the ability to understand your verbal commands. No more need to "push" or use "tricks", instead simply tell your companion to "flank on that guy", or "Try to grapple that guy". Handy eh? The ability to purchase any skill is just a bonus. Once the Int is 3, it's going to all be about Strength.
Hmm yeah int 3 sounds good, anything other to say about animal companions? Any feat suggestions etc?
Teamwork feats like outflank and broken wing gambit can be good if you are tanky enough.
Hmm don't think I have enough feats for it, since won't take any for myself.
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Hmm yeah int 3 sounds good, anything other to say about animal companions? Any feat suggestions etc?
I guess this part from Treantmonk's guide had me a bit confused
1) Ability increase: Every 4 levels your companion gets to increase an ability score. I recommend an increase in Int to 3. This will give your animal companion the ability to understand your verbal commands. No more need to "push" or use "tricks", instead simply tell your companion to "flank on that guy", or "Try to grapple that guy". Handy eh? The ability to purchase any skill is just a bonus. Once the Int is 3, it's going to all be about Strength.
Don't go by that, the information is not correct. While getting the extra Int for your pet is great and should be your first choice, you still require Handle animal checks to perform tricks or to Push your pet.
Don't go by that, the information is not correct. While getting the extra Int for your pet is great and should be your first choice, you still require Handle animal checks to perform tricks or to Push your pet.Hmm yeah int 3 sounds good, anything other to say about animal companions? Any feat suggestions etc?
I guess this part from Treantmonk's guide had me a bit confused
1) Ability increase: Every 4 levels your companion gets to increase an ability score. I recommend an increase in Int to 3. This will give your animal companion the ability to understand your verbal commands. No more need to "push" or use "tricks", instead simply tell your companion to "flank on that guy", or "Try to grapple that guy". Handy eh? The ability to purchase any skill is just a bonus. Once the Int is 3, it's going to all be about Strength.
What does the one intelligence increase then give?
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What does the one intelligence increase then give?Don't go by that, the information is not correct. While getting the extra Int for your pet is great and should be your first choice, you still require Handle animal checks to perform tricks or to Push your pet.Hmm yeah int 3 sounds good, anything other to say about animal companions? Any feat suggestions etc?
I guess this part from Treantmonk's guide had me a bit confused
1) Ability increase: Every 4 levels your companion gets to increase an ability score. I recommend an increase in Int to 3. This will give your animal companion the ability to understand your verbal commands. No more need to "push" or use "tricks", instead simply tell your companion to "flank on that guy", or "Try to grapple that guy". Handy eh? The ability to purchase any skill is just a bonus. Once the Int is 3, it's going to all be about Strength.
The ability to take more types of feats, additional tricks known, ability to learn and understand (but not speak) a language, some ability to use tools (if physically capable).
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Fomsie is on track, but it's a little more broad than that.
Raising Int to 3 allows you to select any feat that the animal companion can meet the prerequisites for. This opens up a lot of options for your companion.
Giving it Improved Unarmed Strike is a popular choice because you can then take any of the style feats. Dragon Style is my best suggestion.
It also allows you to put ranks into any skill, and lets you teach it another three tricks.
Any animal companion with 3 Int can take a rank in Linguistics and understand Common...as well as anyone with an Int of 3 could understand it. You could teach it ancient Thassilonian, but it's reading comprehension will probably be... disappointing.
I think it would be hilarious to give your dino companion ranks in stuff like disable device and teach it to pick locks.
Or you could give it some ranks in Handle Animal and buy a pet cat for it or something and let it boss the little guy around.
Realistically, Linguistics, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive are probably the only skills that you would actually benefit from giving to your animal companion when the whole list opens up. Others are comedy options.
Take a look at Powerful Shape. This is a strong feat for mid-levels, especially with forms that grant the Grab or Trip abilities.
Outflank is a fantastic feat for you if you can assign it to your animal companion and your Druid at the same time.
Oh, ant hual and longstrider start to last all (working) day at 8th level; sooner if you get a metamagic rod. Go ahead and hook yourself and your animal companion with them. Give yourself and your pet mule back cords (or add the ability to a cloak of resistance. Now you can carry your whole party, even if they all took leader ship and brought their minions with them.
My dino shaman (strength 20) could change into an allosurus with muleback cords, and carry 3,728 pounds as a light load (that over a ton and a half. Add ant haul an you triple that, or 11,184 pounds (over 5 tons) as a light load. With longstrider, that 5 tons of goods, gear, and people moving at a nice clip of 60ft as a move action.
When he used a are using a four legged animal form, with mule back cords and ant haul he had a light load of 16,778 pounds, or over 8 tons. His heavy load was over 24 tons.
Your natural attacks grow in size as well, mate. Vital striking for a million dice is a good thing.
Powerful size does exactly zilch for your natural attacks. Believe me, I would have noticed if it did.
prototype00
A failed handle animal check does not mean that the AC goes berserk and starts attacking the party. Assuming that it has learned appropriate combat tricks, the worst case is it will ignore your command to attack.
It is fine to dump Cha. At level 6 (I believe the OP said this is when his druid would start) if you put in 6 ranks of Handle Animal this woul give a total of +11with a 7 Cha (6 ranks 3 class skill 4 wil empathy bonus -2 Cha). Taking 10 to teach a new trick yields a 21 against the DC of 20 to learn a new trick. Once learned it is only a DC 10 to get the animal to perform a trick it has learned meaning it can't fail.
In my experience most GMs do not use handle animal checks anyway. This goes for PFS and home games. A GM who has you roll everything from lvl 1 with an AC makes dumping Cha a touch more risky but when weighed against the need for ST, Dex, Con and Wis I think it is worthwhile.
I like the armor proficiency for animal companions. They can be a little brittle at first but some light armor toughens them up nicely.
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A failed handle animal check does not mean that the AC goes berserk and starts attacking the party. Assuming that it has learned appropriate combat tricks, the worst case is it will ignore your command to attack.
Or stop attacking. :D
It is fine to dump Cha. At level 6 (I believe the OP said this is when his druid would start) if you put in 6 ranks of Handle Animal this woul give a total of +11with a 7 Cha (6 ranks 3 class skill 4 wil empathy bonus -2 Cha). Taking 10 to teach a new trick yields a 21 against the DC of 20 to learn a new trick. Once learned it is only a DC 10 to get the animal to perform a trick it has learned meaning it can't fail.
You're right about that. Dumping Cha is definitely risky at low levels, but if you get to the point where taking 10 gets you past the check every time, it's fine. Remember that the DC goes up when the animal companion takes damage, and probably in other circumstances too (according to your GM). Level 6 looks like the sweet spot. Levels 1-5 would be kind of rough with a 7 Cha though.
In my experience most GMs do not use handle animal checks anyway. This goes for PFS and home games. A GM who has you roll everything from lvl 1 with an AC makes dumping Cha a touch more risky but when weighed against the need for ST, Dex, Con and Wis I think it is worthwhile.I like the armor proficiency for animal companions. They can be a little brittle at first but some light armor toughens them up nicely.
I think this is a table variance thing. My GMs require checks; I just don't need to roll because taking 10 passes every time.
Armor Proficiency for animal companions is a pretty good idea. It would be especially awesome if you had a Triceratops companion with spiked full plate and the Spiked Destroyer feat...
There are some light armors that have a 0 armor check penalty though. Starting out with Leather barding is nice.
Mithril Chain barding works without the proficiency feat too.