I think the League of Legend characters Xin Zhao and Jarvan IV would be Cavaliers. Although I'm having some trouble working out what iconic abilities an Order of Demacia Cavalier might have (besides the lvl 15 capstone: Cataclysm), I think I've done a fair job with Xin (I cannibalized Order of the Lion for the flavor stuff, since it aligns perfectly).
Let me know what you think. I'm not sure about the level 15 ability...but then again, it's level 15. If you've hit your challenge target 3 times, they're probably dead (or nearly dead) already.
Ah, Xin Zhao, the champion that almost made me quit League of Legends.
Audiacious Charge is way too good. Denying all retreat options from everyone within reach is way too much, esepcially when the cavalier doesn't have to successfully hit any of them. There's also no fluff reason for why this happens to all of them.
Crescent Sweep giving Whirlwind Attack is cool, but I think the bull rush attack is too much, especially when 1) he's getting a bunch of defensive bonuses from it and 2) the calavier has the power to substitute Whirlwind melee attacks with bull rush attempts anyway, 3) it'll probably be annoying for everyone at the table for the calavier to have to roll against each opponent TWICE. I would simply give him Whirlwind Attack as a bonus feat and maybe grant him the benefits of Improved Bullrush for the attack or defensive bonuses.
Three-Talon Strike feels too open-ended and yet too restrictive all at once. It's too restrictive because it only works on three consecutive hits on a challenge target. It's too open-ended becasue it allows the cavalier to use ranged attacks, doesn't specify a time limit between each attack, and does not exempt creatures immune to tripping when it should. I think it should be something like this:
"When the cavalier makes three successful melee attacks against a creature during a full-attack, he knocks that creature prone. If a cavalier made a success chargeful attack against this creature on his previous turn, he only needs to make two successful melee attacks. Creatures immune to tripping or creatures more than one size category larger than the cavalier have immunity to this effect."
By the way, don't capitalize the class name and order in the text.
Appreciate the feedback.
Audiacious Charge is way too good. Denying all retreat options from everyone within reach is way too much, esepcially when the cavalier doesn't have to successfully hit any of them. There's also no fluff reason for why this happens to all of them.
They can still move, they simply provoke for it. Or they stand and fight, in which case they are hardly hampered. I also don't understand why you think there's no fluff reason, Xin slows everyone next to his charge target. I can agree that this should perhaps scale from charge target to everyone within reach at a later level however.
3) it'll probably be annoying for everyone at the table for the calavier to have to roll against each opponent TWICE.
Agreed, the Cavalier should just use his attack roll for the bull rush as well ala Shield Slam.
Three-Talon Strike feels too open-ended and yet too restrictive all at once.
Why shouldn't it apply to ranged attacks? A size limitation would make it useless at level 15. I can agree that the 3 attacks should count off from the same round however, if not the same full attack.
By the way, don't capitalize the class name and order in the text.
An strange stylistic choice to pick up on. I like the visibility capitalization adds.
Audiacious Charge is way too good. Denying all retreat options from everyone within reach is way too much, esepcially when the cavalier doesn't have to successfully hit any of them. There's also no fluff reason for why this happens to all of them.They can still move, they simply provoke for it. Or they stand and fight, in which case they are hardly hampered. I also don't understand why you think there's no fluff reason, Xin slows everyone next to his charge target. I can agree that this should perhaps scale from charge target to everyone within reach at a later level however.
This is a tabletop RPG, not a video game. How is the cavalier disabling enemies from running away, especially when he hasn't even made a successful attack? Also, this appears significantly more powerful than comparable abilities a character could achieve at this level, like Step Up. When an ability enables a character to disable multiple enemies while granting no save and not actually doing anything to them, that's a sign of a fairly broken ability. I think something like "When the cavalier succeeds on a charge attack against a creature, the target must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 cavalier level + Str modifier) or become staggered for one round. A creature subject to the cavalier's challenge receives a -2 penalty on this saving throw." This would still be a very good ability that synergies extremely well with Step Up and similar abilities.
Three-Talon Strike feels too open-ended and yet too restrictive all at once.Why shouldn't it apply to ranged attacks? A size limitation would make it useless at level 15. I can agree that the 3 attacks should count off from the same round however, if not the same full attack.
This would be insane for ranged builds, which are already very powerful, even for a 15th level ability. It also doesn't fit the cavalier nor the theme of mimicking the ability after Xin Zhao, a character that only fights with a spear. I'm also very wary of abilities that can drop someone prone that's 16 times their size.
By the way, don't capitalize the class name and order in the text.An strange stylistic choice to pick up on. I like the visibility capitalization adds.
I'm referring to Pathfinder's formatting style. Pathfinder does not capitalize the names of classes and other mechanics in its text descriptions, with some exceptions like size categories, range classifications, feat names, and skills. I usually don't point these out because this is homebrew, not RPG Superstar. However, I'm making an exception because you capitalize the class and order in some parts of the text, but not others. If you're going to deviate from the style, then at least do so consistently.
How does Xin do it? He's just a badass normal. He's so threatening that when he charges, you can't easily maneuver away from him. I don't see what makes that uniquely videogamey. This isn't a disable. This is 1 round of not allowing safe movement. If this was a stun, daze, stagger, slow (The Pathfinder Slow, not the speed reduction), I'd be inclined to agree with you.
I think by proposing Stagger, you're actually making it stronger. Stagger is a very potent crowd control effect. Enemies that stand and fight shouldn't be worse off. How does Stagger make more fluff sense than preventing foes from running anyway? I've changed Audacious to only affect the charge target at level 2, scaling to AoE control at level 12.
Xin Zhao fights with a spear, but I don't see a reason to place artificial restrictions. The first two abilities work best with a reach weapon (and don't work at at all with a ranged weapon). And if you DO hit a challenge target 3 times with a bow in one round (decided to go with that change) at level 15 and they still live, you knock them prone.
Prone is not that horrifying. Casters have been casting Grease since level 1, and it's still effective (since a lot of monsters will be no better at Acrobatic checks than they were before). Plus, they'll get +4 AC against further ranged attacks.
I'd be reserved against knocking prone creatures so much bigger than you if "the bigger they are, the harder they fall" were true. It's not. They don't take falling damage, they don't have bigger penalties, it affects them no worse than any other opponent.
Capitalization has been standardized, unless I've missed anything else on the second sweep.
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I have great interest in this idea, considering I once attempted to get a Demacian Kingmaker campaign going. I don't, however, have a very good grasp of tabletop RPG balance! So I'm going to consider suggestions carefully before I post them.
I will say I feel strangely about his ultimate being placed at an earlier level than his Q.
Consider limiting Audacious Charge by including a Fortitude or Reflex save to avoid the ability (10+1/2 level+A Stat with maybe a higher DC for challenged opponents). No Save effects in general are very powerful, I think that's just slightly too good for the first order ability.
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Considering that without Combat Reflexes, the cavalier would only get one free shot at any of the surrounding targets hit by Audacious Charge's disable effect, I don't think it's that strong. I'll suggest an alternative if it's a balance issue though; At 12th level, the cavalier may also attempt an Intimidate check on all other enemies within reach.
I do think that Three Talon Strike functioning with ranged weapons seems off from a flavor perspective. I wouldn't consider firing three arrows an "attack routine", nor would I call it a "devastating combo". It just doesn't mesh in my opinion.
I'm considering how you might implement Battle Cry or the armor penetrating effect of his passive into the order abilities without having more than three abilities or making any of the three too strong, but other than the above I think it's pretty good. I don't see a huge problem with knocking a single target prone, especially a target you can only designate a number of times per day, and with the condition that you actually hit with all three attacks.
1) Denying a multiple targets a round of safe movement is a disable. Do not treat the conditions section as a comprehensive list of every disable or status effect in the entire game. It's merely a list of common effects for the convenience of designers not having to reinvent the wheel. There exists many effects that no GM would deny as disables that are absent from that list, such as confusion and curses.
2) My version of Audacious Charge staggers a single enemy, who gets a save, and requires a successful charge attack. Your version does not require a successful attack and instantly disables all adjacent enemies with no save. Even on a single target, it's stronger than comparable abilities of that level, like the Step Up feat. Stagger also implies the character so audaciously charges the foe that it staggers them. There's no implication of this with your draft. No one would even understand it unless they played League of Legends.
3) Limiting Three-Talon Strike to melee attacks is not an artificial restriction. Most on-hit abilities in the game (especially ones for the cavalier) only work for melee attacks because it requires the combatant to take some risk, which creates engaging gameplay. Ranged fighters can full attack with ease and safety, and giving them an almost at-will ability to knock targets prone with no save from +100 feet away is very powerful, even for a 15th level ability. You can't compare this to a 1st level spell that allows a save and can easily be bypassed by high level creatures. It also doesn't make much sense to enable non-risky characters to use this ability was meant to model Xin Zhao, a character that's all about jumping into battle with reckless abandon.
4) Prone is a powerful condition because it forces them to either waste a move action and provoke an attack of opportunity or suffer hefty defensive and offensive penalties. Larger creatures are supposed to be inherently more resistant to effects that knock them down or reposition them, which is why most effects that bypass the tripping mechanic give bonuses to larger creatures.
My only criticism regards the skill bonus. To my mind, one of the purposes of a level based skill bonus is to allow the character to put skill points elsewhere. So, allowing untrained nobility checks on the one hand, and then granting a bonus only if it is trained seems counter intuitive to me. Also, the bonus is strangely specific, so I would amend it to the following:
Skills: An Order of the Seneschal cavalier adds Knowledge (local) and Knowledge (nobility) to his list of class skills, and he can make Knowledge (nobility) skill checks even if he is untrained. He adds his level to Knowledge (nobility) checks involving his sovereign or his sovereign's domain.
@Shicil
The skills are ordered as they are because in Pathfinder, Whirlwind Attack scales poorly. You need to get it sooner than later to get some mileage out of it.
Armor penetration is his bonus to hit against the challenged target. In League, Armor Penetration allows you to do more damage. In Pathfinder, it would just be accuracy. Swinging against Touch AC would be too much. I considered Battle Cry, but that's just getting a bonus attack, or healing yourself on attacks (which would be a Supernatural ability), or potentially temporary HP (which could be Ex.) The latter is somewhat interesting, but not especially iconic I think.
@Ciaran
The Skills are lifted straight from Paizo's Order of the Lion. That weirdness belongs to them :P
@Cyrad
See my above post, I've made it only affect the charged target until level 12. Stagger is far more potent than limiting safe movement. It's straight up action denial. The best CC is action denial, my version is action limitation. I don't think forcing them to eat an AoO is that bad. They are also free to stand and fight, to defend themselves, or to cast defensively (that's probably what they'll be doing anyway). Denying 5ft/Withdraw is handy, but not a potent enough CC to put a DC on (in my opinion). Now, if it was a harder CC, I'd agree with a DC. I just see Audacious Charge as being more about controlling your battle space, rather than debilitating your opponents.
I'm not sure what non-trip prone effects give bonuses to bigger creatures, I'd be interested in examples. Grease actually works better against larger creatures, as there's generally a Dex penalty associated with larger sizes.
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Yeah, I realized that Three Talon Strike being placed at level 15 was a progression issue, it just feels weird. Not an actual complaint. =)
I was wondering about the temporary HP too, and personally consider Xin Zhao's sustain a super iconic part of his kit, but I think the implementation in Pathfinder would be odd and it's not super necessary.
As to the armor penetration, I was considering suggesting some way to hit Touch AC to emulate armor penetration...But it just sounds really strong, more so than the possible issues already presented.
All in all, I like it! It wouldn't require many tweaks for those who think it's off balance, and it captures the mechanical aspects of his skills pretty well.