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1. Non evil undead in PF is limited to ghosts, Shadowdancer shadow companions, and the very rare neutral vampires. (Juju zombies are retconned out, I believe.)
2. Undead with earth themes include guecubus (Bestiary 3), Shavian ghuls, and any undead based on an stone based character.
I can't think of any non-evil earth undead. I guess an earth domain cleric ghost might work, but it isn't like the crypt thing.
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If you have a sentient undead creature, it's actually quite easy to have non-evil ones. Just choose not to be evil. It's really quite easy.
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If you have a sentient undead creature, it's actually quite easy to have non-evil ones. Just choose not to be evil. It's really quite easy.
The new catchphrase for Paladins of Sarenrae everywhere!
"Have you tried not being evil?"
Are you the DM or the player?
Skeletal Champions are intelligent undead with a template that applies to something with a skeleton, so any sort of Earth Type with a skeletal structure could work. He found a refuge of Sarenrae and is no longer evil. Ta Da! If it has cleric levels, Bob's your uncle.
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If you have a sentient undead creature, it's actually quite easy to have non-evil ones. Just choose not to be evil. It's really quite easy.The new catchphrase for Paladins of Sarenrae everywhere!
"Have you tried not being evil?"
Well, the point is that there's nothing forcing undead characters to be evil. Alignment is a result of actions, it doesn't determine actions. Thus, if you have an undead character that consistently acts neutral or good, you have an undead character that's neutral or good.
Well, the point is that there's nothing forcing undead characters to be evil. Alignment is a result of actions, it doesn't determine actions. Thus, if you have an undead character that consistently acts neutral or good, you have an undead character that's neutral or good.If you have a sentient undead creature, it's actually quite easy to have non-evil ones. Just choose not to be evil. It's really quite easy.The new catchphrase for Paladins of Sarenrae everywhere!
"Have you tried not being evil?"
"Have I tried not hungering for the flesh, blood, and brains of the living? Why NO, of course I haven't"
I think part of the problem is that undeath is so antithetical to mortal life that it often can't adapt (imagine how you would feel in a rotting swamp surrounded by mutilated corpses shambling around, engulfed in the stench of decay, and going into full smack mode whenever something crawled onto your arm). Even relatively benign ghosts have a tendency to go off of the deep end. Who knew that having non-rotten brain meats was so important to mental health?
Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying every undead character has to be a saint, or that everyone maintains their sanity. Just that it's possible.
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If you have a sentient undead creature, it's actually quite easy to have non-evil ones. Just choose not to be evil. It's really quite easy.The new catchphrase for Paladins of Sarenrae everywhere!
"Have you tried not being evil?"
That's not exactly unfair. Being not-evil isn't even very hard. It just means don't hurt, oppress, or kill others. Heck, if you do a little good, you can even do some of that and skirt by as Neutral.
Also insanity doesn't equate to evil. And if you're a sentient undead that's not enslaved by someone or something, there's nothing stopping you from improving your life. You don't have to lurk about in graveyards and swamps and tombs unless you want to or have a reason for doing so.
For example, ghouls and ghasts frequently lurk around graveyards and battlefields because they're scavengers. A lot of them are even very civilized acting. It's noted that they prefer to leave people alone, and don't like fresh corpses at all, preferring them to be rotting because apparently that makes them more tasty or something.
A ghoul or ghast would be an ideal sort of undead creature to decide that it didn't want to be evil and then just not be evil. In fact, according to the alignment rules, their general description suggests little that would lend itself to them being evil.
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Ghosts do because they aren't twisted beings, but a zombie or skeleton can't act as a netural or good character because their very nature isn't like it used to, they can't choose. They are undead because they're infused with evil powers.
Actually skeletons and zombies are infused with *neutral* powers. Negative energy isn't evil, and never has been.
Being mindless, they are incapable of malice. They radiate evil just because they radiate evil (all tautologies are tautologies, as they say), not because they want to be evil (since they can't *want* anything, any more than a rock or a tree branch can 'want' to be evil, or good or a Nobel-prize winning astrophysicist) or are made out of evil. They are made out of neutral energy, no more evil or good (or lawful or chaotic) than fire or water or electricity or positive energy.
In 3.5, they were made evil for exactly one reason, according to the guys who made that change, *so that Paladins could smite them.*
That's it. No 'hate for life' (since a mindless creature is incapable of hate, and even has immunity to morale effects and mind-affecting effects as part of it's standard package of immunities!). No 'made out of evil.'
Skeletons and zombies detect as evil because they detect as evil.
There is no why. I could make up a reason, like 'it's a bug in the detect evil spell' or 'because non-good Pharasma hates undead, and knows that making them detect as evil will trick the stupid good people into destroying them for her, which, being non-good, she finds hilarious,' but I'd be making that up, just like the notion that mindless things like fire and dirt are capable of malice, or that filling a non-evil thing with non-evil energy somehow makes it evil 'just because,' despite non-good positive energy not turning demons good by filling them with healing. It doesn't make sense in either direction. It's equal levels of absurd.
Ghosts do because they aren't twisted beings, but a zombie or skeleton can't act as a netural or good character because their very nature isn't like it used to, they can't choose. They are undead because they're infused with evil powers.Actually skeletons and zombies are infused with *neutral* powers. Negative energy isn't evil, and never has been.
Being mindless, they are incapable of malice. They radiate evil just because they radiate evil (all tautologies are tautologies, as they say), not because they want to be evil (since they can't *want* anything, any more than a rock or a tree branch can 'want' to be evil, or good or a Nobel-prize winning astrophysicist) or are made out of evil. They are made out of neutral energy, no more evil or good (or lawful or chaotic) than fire or water or electricity or positive energy.
In 3.5, they were made evil for exactly one reason, according to the guys who made that change, *so that Paladins could smite them.*
That's it. No 'hate for life' (since a mindless creature is incapable of hate, and even has immunity to morale effects and mind-affecting effects as part of it's standard package of immunities!). No 'made out of evil.'
Skeletons and zombies detect as evil because they detect as evil.
There is no why. I could make up a reason, like 'it's a bug in the detect evil spell' or 'because non-good Pharasma hates undead, and knows that making them detect as evil will trick the stupid good people into destroying them for her, which, being non-good, she finds hilarious,' but I'd be making that up, just like the notion that mindless things like fire and dirt are capable of malice, or that filling a non-evil thing with non-evil energy somehow makes it evil 'just because,' despite non-good positive energy not turning demons good by filling them with healing. It doesn't make sense in either direction. It's equal levels of absurd.
Yeah, it might have originated from an arbitrary decision in 3.5...but Paizo decided to maintain that decision and generally uphold it in the design of their setting.
This can be seen in how many undead are formed under 'natural' conditions, with no necromancy involved. Just look at the descriptions for various undead such asShadows, Warsworn, Banshees, Bonestorms, or Wights. All of them involve an intense and driving emotion (often of an extremely negative nature) that compels them to continue existing in the physical plane in wretched and decaying forms. And their driving force also often puts them at odds with the motivations of the living (which usually includes going about their lives without their entrails being ripped out because some ghost got jealous over them getting to eat a good meal, or whatever)
Even if negative energy is in itself neutral, Paizo has decided to make the process that a creature goes through as it switches from positive to negative energy as traumatic and twisting as the worst fleshcrafting experiment or fiendish transformation.
Ghosts do because they aren't twisted beings, but a zombie or skeleton can't act as a netural or good character because their very nature isn't like it used to, they can't choose. They are undead because they're infused with evil powers.Actually skeletons and zombies are infused with *neutral* powers. Negative energy isn't evil, and never has been.
Animate dead is an evil descriptor spell. They are infused with [evil] power. I believe that was true in 3e as well.
Being mindless, they are incapable of malice.
True, but they can still operate by nature to hurt and kill.
I saw 3e skeletons as neutral animated robots doing only what they were explicitly commanded to do who were animated by evil power and detect as evil but would not take any action on their own and were therefore alignment neutral. Animate too many and the first couple are not subject to your command and so they stop acting.
I see 3.5/PF skeletons as subject to necromantic commands but as a default without commands they are wandering monsters who will hurt and kill you. Animate too many and you have unleashed uncontrolled mindless killers.
They radiate evil just because they radiate evil (all tautologies are tautologies, as they say), not because they want to be evil (since they can't *want* anything, any more than a rock or a tree branch can 'want' to be evil, or good or a Nobel-prize winning astrophysicist) or are made out of evil. They are made out of neutral energy, no more evil or good (or lawful or chaotic) than fire or water or electricity or positive energy.
As long as you ignore the [evil] descriptor of the spell that actually animates them.
[Evil] powers them.
In 3.5, they were made evil for exactly one reason, according to the guys who made that change, *so that Paladins could smite them.*
That's it. No 'hate for life' (since a mindless creature is incapable of hate, and even has immunity to morale effects and mind-affecting effects as part of it's standard package of immunities!). No 'made out of evil.'
Skeletons and zombies detect as evil because they detect as evil.
There is no why. I could make up a reason, like 'it's a bug in the detect evil spell' or 'because non-good Pharasma hates undead, and knows that making them detect as evil will trick the stupid good people into destroying them for her, which, being non-good, she finds hilarious,' but I'd be making that up, just like the notion that mindless things like fire and dirt are capable of malice, or that filling a non-evil thing with non-evil energy somehow makes it evil 'just because,' despite non-good positive energy not turning demons good by filling them with healing. It doesn't make sense in either direction. It's equal levels of absurd.
There is no explicit why stated in the core rule books but there are implicit ones.
I can make up much better reasons than you listed. :)
First some relevant facts.
1 all undead detect as evil (regardless of actual alignment). Similar thing with fiends.
2 all spells that create undead have the [evil] descriptor.
3 [evil] descriptor is distinct from evil alignment and does not require sentience (unholy swords, etc.).
4 negative energy is channelled by evil clerics or neutrals choosing it and same with cause wounds spells but purely negative energy spells do not have [evil] descriptors just like cure spells do not have [good] descriptors.
So if supernatural evil is tied to all creating undead spells the theory that undead are powered and partially composed of supernatural evil and therefore detect as evil regardless of actual alignement is internally consistent.
And theologically/cosmologically cool IMO.
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If an undead doesn't want to be evil all it needs to do is cast Protection from Evil until it's Good. Or we can all acknowledge that most of the [alignment] tags for spells don't really make sense. One or the other.
I've never liked the all undead are evil/creating undead is evil thing and typically choose to ignore it. Personally if you're temporarily using the bodies of the dead to preserve the lives and well-being of the living then it's a good to neutral act imo (I was arguing this with a fiend the other day who as insisting that all necromancy is always evil and if he was running a campaign he'd force an alignment shift for using it).
If you're GMing it just say that mindless undead are extensions of the will that created them and this possess their creator's alignment.
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First some relevant facts.
1 all undead detect as evil (regardless of actual alignment). Similar thing with fiends.
2 all spells that create undead have the [evil] descriptor.
3 [evil] descriptor is distinct from evil alignment and does not require sentience (unholy swords, etc.).
4 negative energy is channelled by evil clerics or neutrals choosing it and same with cause wounds spells but purely negative energy spells do not have [evil] descriptors just like cure spells do not have [good] descriptors.
1. Citation needed
2. Skeleton Crew doesn't, the Dirge Bard's Dance of the Dead doesn't, the Undead Lord Cleric's Corpse Companion isn't evil, and using the Skeleton Summoner feat doesn't make it evil.@Set: Okay, they are infused with negativ energy. But that is an evil power. Evil (and neutral clerics that worships evil gods) can channel negativ energy, but not good aligned clerics. The negativ energy is used with necromancing, which is an evil thing.
Negative Energy isn't an evil power and Positive Energy isn't a good power they are completely neutral tools; Evil gods use Negative energy since it harms the living and most likely be of use to advance their goals, Good gods choose Positive since it heals and most likely be of use to advance their goals, Neutrals don't care seeing them for what they are neutral tools. Necromancy also isn't evil otherwise casting any single spell in the Necromancy school would be an evil act and it isn't(I also believe that animating undead shouldn't be either)
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Good and evil should be defined as who you are and NOT what you are. I can see a good necromancer making a request of ancestors or goodly spirits to animate skeletons and and other mindless undead (unliving??)
I can see a case for a (good) arch-lich.
In the case of vampires and other intelligent undead who became undead against their will and were goodly people. Then why not allow them the Will Save to choose a path against the nature of the beast. If lycanthropes are eventually allowed to gain control over their affliction, why not vampires? What about the mummies who volunteered to protect their liege in death by guarding his remains? Why must that be evil?
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There are canonical Neutral Vampires and at least one Mummy, plus a plethora of Ghosts. I don't see any reason you can't have an isolated case of any undead being Neutral, or even Good...it's just very very rare.
Being Undead of most varieties (probably not ghosts) seems to give one what amount to Evil instincts. For example, vampire's immediate thought when seeing the living is not 'my friend John' or 'she's pretty' it's 'ooh, tasty'. And equivalently unpleasant thoughts for other undead. They can certainly control this behavior and manage to not be Evil...but they need to put effort in to do so, and few bother.
As for the OP maybe apply the Element Infused Creature Template(Earth) to a Crypt Thing and give it some cleric levels as for it being non-evil just make it non-evil.
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on the topic of my personal opinions of necromancy and it's implicit 'evils' i direct thee hence.
@OP: toss together dwarf skeletal champion who was a cleric (or an advanced stonelord paladin) in his past life. tell the alignment system to go screw itself.
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Feel free to define how undeath works and what it does to a creature's nature in your own home game. If you want to throw out alignment because you feel it's an unnecessary holdover from a simpler time in the game's history, then go for it. Remove alignment descriptors from spells, change the paladin class abilities, etc. But those changes should best be described in the "Homebrew" forum.
In the core (setting-neutral) rules, undeath is an evil perversion of nature, and the resulting creatures are twisted into things that hate life and want to destroy it.
There can be non-evil intelligent undead, but these are extremely rare exceptions that are worthy of major plot-lines. Most of the non-evil undead are ghosts, with a few vampires here and there who have managed not to succumb to the evil urges of undeath.
First some relevant facts.
1 all undead detect as evil (regardless of actual alignment). Similar thing with fiends.
2 all spells that create undead have the [evil] descriptor.
3 [evil] descriptor is distinct from evil alignment and does not require sentience (unholy swords, etc.).
4 negative energy is channelled by evil clerics or neutrals choosing it and same with cause wounds spells but purely negative energy spells do not have [evil] descriptors just like cure spells do not have [good] descriptors.1. Citation needed
2. Skeleton Crew doesn't, the Dirge Bard's Dance of the Dead doesn't, the Undead Lord Cleric's Corpse Companion isn't evil, and using the Skeleton Summoner feat doesn't make it evil.
1 My mistake. I had not noticed that Pathfinder changed that from Pathfinder Beta, 3.5 and 3.0.
And they added in AD&D style detect subjective evil intent. Blech.
Weird that they removed the always detect as evil but kept the different power level of alignment they detect as and extended it to whatever alignment they are. A LG ghost detects as more LG than an equivalent level nondivine powered human. Very odd.
Now I'm curious if Undead Revisited addresses this at all.
2 Right, so only all the core spells and spells in the PRD (that I'm aware of - animate dead lesser) for directly creating undead have the [evil] descriptor. Class abilities and spells from non-PRD sourcebooks might be different just like the shadowdancer's summon shadow ability.
a) I don't have access to d20pfsrd at work and Skeleton Crew is not in the PRD. Where is it from? I assume it makes a skeleton crew to crew a boat? Are the skeletons permanent or temporary? Any nonstandard skeleton features to them?
2 b) dirge bard's Dance of the Dead is not a spell, it is a supernatural class ability that is like animate dead but without the [evil] descriptor and the undead lose their animation when the performance ends.
2 c) The undead lord's Corpse Companion is not a spell, it is a supernatural class ability that animates a skeleton or zombie and does not reference descriptors.
2 d) Skeleton Summoner is a feat, not a spell. It only summons a skeleton template monster(s) for a round per level, not create them.
I'm not sure I've seen any supernatural abilities with descriptors at all, are there any you are aware of?
So animate dead, create undead, create undead greater, and animate undead lesser are the big PRD spells for creating undead and they all have the [evil] descriptor. There is a non-PRD spell that does something similar and some supernatural class abilities that do something sort of similar without [evil] descriptors.
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Why is it that good gods still allow their followers to harm evil but not use negativ energy to do so?
A good cleric can prepare inflict wounds, which is negative energy.
Negativ energy is exclusiv to evil beings or granted from evil gods. Undeads are infused with negativ energy, it is also mentioned in several undead enties that they are evil because of the foul magic that grants them their evil powers. I don't see how this thing that is solely used by evil, for evil and in evil ways can be anything but evil.
Neutral clerics of neutral gods can choose to channel negative energy... and their neutral Lords are cool with it.
The arguments against are "because it isn't" or "because it wasn't like that in another game".
No. The arguments are more in line with "it's not consistent, so you can decide for yourself" and "over several editions, two of which Pathfinder attempts to be compatible with, we have these examples..."
But then again, I don't really have a dog in this fight.
Both the book Champions of Purity and the Wrath of the Righteous Player's Guide (Free!) contain the rules for Redemption, which provides a path for any evil critter to become good. In a similar vein, it offers an explanation as to 'how' any particular normally-evil critter could show up Good in any given game. And that's official stuff.
In the Wrath of the Righteous AP:
** spoiler omitted **
While there are official rules, there is also this caveat in there too:
For creatures with the evil subtype, their alignment is ingrained into their very soul, and the GM may rule that they are beyond redemption of this sort or at the very least a difficult and exceptional series of tasks must be completed to facilitate the change in alignment.
So being 'good' might be the kind of undertaking of say....centuries of struggle, meditation, and discipline for a vampire, or (drawing from the Wrath of the Righteous example; never played it, so I am not entirely sure of the circumstances) maybe due to the interference of powers on a .....MYTHIC scale?
From that perspective, good undead might be part of the 'things that happen outside of the party's actions' kind of background stuff, rather than something that could be practically undertaken during the fast paced life of adventure on the road.
Negative Energy isn't an evil power and Positive Energy isn't a good power they are completely neutral tools; Evil gods use Negative energy since it harms the living and most likely be of use to advance their goals, Good gods choose Positive since it heals and most likely be of use to advance their goals, Neutrals don't care seeing them for what they are neutral tools. Necromancy also isn't evil otherwise casting any single spell in the Necromancy school would be an evil act and it isn't(I also believe that animating undead shouldn't be either)Why is it that good gods still allow their followers to harm evil but not use negativ energy to do so?
Negativ energy is exclusiv to evil beings or granted from evil gods. Undeads are infused with negativ energy, it is also mentioned in several undead enties that they are evil because of the foul magic that grants them their evil powers. I don't see how this thing that is solely used by evil, for evil and in evil ways can be anything but evil.
The arguments against are "because it isn't" or "because it wasn't like that in another game".
I didn't know that a cleric can channel Positive Energy to harm anyone that's evil I should start using it on Demons, Devils, and that Evil Slaver; oh wait it doesn't it only hurts Undead since they are infused with Negative Energy and despite being Neutral forces they are the opposite of each other.
You are wrong Negative Energy isn't exclusive to Evil Gods and Beings otherwise Good Cleric and other Divine casters wouldn't be able to use inflict spells and Wizards and other Arcane casters wouldn't be able to use Chill Touch or other spells since they don't get their powers from a god and the spell uses Negative Energy; also Neutral gods allow their followers to channel Positive or Negative energy.
The argument is that it is a Neutral force because it is a Neutral Force going to the Positive Energy Plane can kill you just as much as going to the Negative Energy Plane can; they are non sentient Neutral forces. What decides if something or someone is evil is what they do with it/what they do.
What decides if something or someone is evil is what they do with it/what they do.
Unless there is supernatural [evil]. Then there can be a nonsentient evil thing regardless of whether it is used for a good purpose.
Unholy: An unholy weapon is imbued with unholy power. This power makes the weapon evil-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all creatures of good alignment. It bestows one permanent negative level on any good creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded.Moderate evocation [evil]; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, unholy blight, creator must be evil; Price +2 bonus.
I didn't know that a cleric can channel Positive Energy to harm anyone that's evil I should start using it on Demons, Devils, and that Evil Slaver; oh wait it doesn't it only hurts Undead since they are infused with Negative Energy [...]I didn't say that, why even go there?
I thought that you were referring to Channeling Positive Energy if not then I don't see the point of even bringing it up in the first place.
and despite being Neutral forces they are the opposite of each other.Citation from a Pathfinder source needed, you can't just state something.
The basic understanding of what Positive and Negative are and what Positive and Negative Energy do in Pathfinder?
The argument is that it is a Neutral force because it is a Neutral Force going to the Positive Energy Plane can kill you just as much as going to the Negative...This, I'm very intresded in, Pathfinder citation please.
skeleton crew is from Pirates of the Inner Sea. The spell doesn't have the [Evil] descriptor. I'm guessing that's an error, but I'm not certain of that. At the same time, the spell description says that the skeletons created by this spell cannot attack, and do not defend themselves if attacked... meaning that they don't have the typical undead fear, hatred, and desire to eat/kill the living that most undead have. What's also unusual is that skeleton crewmembers only remain animate for a set duration-- they collapse into piles of bones at the end of the spell. All of the other undead creation spells I can think of have a duration of "instantaneous."
If I had to hazard a guess, this spell was included to give a Pirates of the Caribbean feel. I would also pose that it didn't get a full review from the main custodians of Golarion canon (i.e. James Jacobs.) I know he doesn't give a full editorial pass on most products in the Players Companion line. He's pretty adamant that, in his vision of Golarion, undead are evil by nature and creating undead is always an evil act.
In my home game, skeleton crew gets the [Evil] descriptor for consistency.
skeleton crew is from Pirates of the Inner Sea. The spell doesn't have the [Evil] descriptor. I'm guessing that's an error, but I'm not certain of that. At the same time, the spell description says that the skeletons created by this spell cannot attack, and do not defend themselves if attacked... meaning that they don't have the typical undead fear, hatred, and desire to eat/kill the living that most undead have. What's also unusual is that skeleton crewmembers only remain animate for a set duration-- they collapse into piles of bones at the end of the spell. All of the other undead creation spells I can think of have a duration of "instantaneous."
If I had to hazard a guess, this spell was included to give a Pirates of the Caribbean feel. I would also pose that it didn't get a full review from the main custodians of Golarion canon (i.e. James Jacobs.) I know he doesn't give a full editorial pass on most products in the Players Companion line. He's pretty adamant that, in his vision of Golarion, undead are evil by nature and creating undead is always an evil act.
In my home game, skeleton crew gets the [Evil] descriptor for consistency.
There is also the fact that all the undead get profession (sailor) scores, even if they were originally from the most landlocked of desert nations and never saw more than a gallon of water in once place at a time. I do not deal with necromancy much, but that seems unusual.
Maybe it is not evil since it is not binding the souls of the living to their rotting flesh, but because it just uses their flesh as material for some kind of negative energy robot. Basically, a more autonomous version of that dirge bard thing.
That's all mindless undead are anyway. Robots. Animate dead and similar methods of producing them do diddly to souls.
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I assume that the reason liches, vampires, graveknights, and other such undead are always evil has to do both with legacy issues from older editions and the process through which they are formed/persist.
Vampires actively choose their life over other creatures lives every time they feed. They decide it is more important that they live than other people live. Thus the only not evil vampires would be those that starve to death or those that feed only from creatures already going to die. This of course assumes they must feed from sentient, if not then they need to jsut switch to cows to be not evil. However the switch from evil being that easy makes the practice of most feeding from humanoids harder to understand and makes for less compelling stories.
Liches on the other hand require no sustenance. Instead they just need to create a phylactery the creation of which is specifically called out as an evil act. Most often times when the creation process is elaborated on it includes the sacrifice of one or more sapients. As a result it wouldn't be unfair to assume all liches or nearly all liches are evil. To have a non-evil one there would have to be some other means of making a phylactery. I personally am partial to the duty based unlife of Tomb King liches and the elf liches on Forgotten Realms.
Graveknights are a bit more tricky, but in general they come from twisted holy knights or champions of evil. It isn't much of a stretch to say that the magic animating them self selects for evil souls. Becoming a graveknight doesn't turn someone evil but only evil people fulfill the requirements needed to work that particular form of magic. This also lines up with deathknights in AD&D whom specifically chose to pledge their souls to Orcus.
Mohrgs can only be made from serial killers and other such examples exist for various minor undead. Similar to the graveknight it isn't the state of being undead that makes them evil but being evil that allowed them to become undead.
For skeletons and zombies there is no reason for them to be evil. They're neutral it's just easiest for evil people to make them.
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on your vampire thing: vampires don't HAVE to kill anything when they feed; there's even feats describing the process for player use with dhampirs, saying that only feeding against an unwilling target is an evil act--though my earlier post/link talks of my thoughts on that bit of stupidity, but i digress--a vampire could find some charitable soul(s) to feed from and neither be commiting an evil act nor killing anyone to continue their existence.
heck, even in the blood of the night book it doesn't say you have to kill something to sate your hunger, just that you feed on the proper substance.
the rest i understand though.
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By RAW yeah there is no real reason for vampires to need to harm living creatures, instead of just having a slightly kinky partner. In my opinion however vampiric feeding doing permanent damage to its victims helps evoke the themes of predation/abuse that permeates gothic vampire fiction, which is what I use them to replicate. Hence why i was kind of back and forth on them. As written there is nothing preventing any vampire form giving up the life style and becoming Blade.
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As written there is nothing preventing any vampire form giving up the life style and becoming Blade.
Blade is a dhampir. There's actual rules to support creating him in Pathfinder and making him a vampire hunter ;)
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I know that. The thing is that Blade was a special case in the movie because we inherited only one of the vampire weaknesses, thirst for human blood. He gets around this through artificial blood. The other vampires had far more hurdles to clear and a fully functioning society so the numbers of "good" vampires was low. Golarion vampires on the other-hand can get by with eating really rare steak for lunch, meaning that isn't really a reason for them to be evil and harm people other than wanting to. It'd make a lot more sense if they dealt Con drain instead of Con damage and had to drink from sapients. Without that there is no reason for them to be evil.
In 3.5 this was somewhat rectified with the inescapable craving rule but no such setup exists for pathfinder. Until such rules exist vampires being all evil seems silly. Though another explanation could be that only super evil people can become vampires, but that sort of takes away from the abusive seduction angle of them turning people. Really the rules just need to match up with the intended stories.
Given Golarion apparently has non-evil vampires on occasion... I think Paizo agrees with you.
(drawing from the Wrath of the Righteous example; never played it, so I am not entirely sure of the circumstances) maybe due to the interference of powers on a .....MYTHIC scale?Oh! I never meant to imply that it was easy, just that it was possible. :) Big difference there :D
In the WotR example (Demon's Heresy, book 3, fwiw), it's actually handled and done quite mundane and non-Mythic. In fact, the whole AP also includes suggestions for running things without the Mythic ruleset. And in this instance, all of the assistance the PC's are rendering is done on-the-road, and not in the background.
I'd say that essentially your mileage may vary, depending on the game, the entity in question, and the circumstances.
... how is that not a mythic kick-off to the ability to redeem a demon?
In order words, you are correct that the means to finish the redemption does not require mythic PCs but the initial spark that allowed for it to happen at all was indeed very mythic.
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Given Golarion apparently has non-evil vampires on occasion... I think Paizo agrees with you.
Yup. Blood of the Night talks about this in some detail. Good vampires are pretty much nonexistent since being a vampire is fundamentally a selfish act (you're hurting others to prolong your existence), and due to the impulse towards evil I mention above...but Neutral ones aren't even that uncommon.
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One nice thing about this game is that we are free to change things as we would like to.
So If you would like to have a non evil earth and water undead, you can have one. You may have to make one, but its up to you the GM what you want in your game.
For my own home games I happen to like my orcs goblins hobgoblins drow etc as evil by their nature. Can they be redeemed? I suppose so, If a player really wanted to have this as part of their story I supposed I could be moved to make an exception.
I also like my undead universally evil. I like the Ghosts being the exception to this rule.
I also have decided to make the positive energy plane good aligned and the negative energy plane evilly aligned in my home games. With an evilly aligned negative energy plane it takes care of any questions about why undead are evil.
Anyways each to his own. And to the OP, if you are the GM you can have any kind of Undead you want to in your game. You may have to make what you want however. Good luck.
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The argument is that it is a Neutral force because it is a Neutral Force going to the Positive Energy Plane can kill you just as much as going to the Negative...This, I'm very intresded in, Pathfinder citation please.
However, it would not prove my main point wrong.
Unprotected exposure to both the Positive and Negative energy planes is lethal. Neither plane has an alignment trait. Neither type of energy is linked to Good or Evil.
Citation: write ups of both planes in 'The Inner Sea World Guide' and 'The Great Beyond'.
What's evil is certain applications of negative energy, its effect on the position-energy empowered soul, and arguably the disruption of the natural flow of souls, etc. Fire isn't evil, but burning down an orphanage full of innocents is. Water isn't evil, but drowning your best friend is. Neither fire or water are aligned elements, but their applications can be twisted towards good or evil ends. Same thing with positive and negative energy, but negative energy is vastly more easily able to turn to evil uses because the vast majority of creatures are empowered by positive energy-based souls.
Many undead are evil not because of what energy empowers them, but by the intent of their creators, the particular way in which negative energy is applied, or if they aren't evil initially, the long-term prognosis as a result of the interaction between a soul and negative energy isn't normally promising to not eventually slide towards evil. James has written a lot on this topic in various threads.
Skeleton crew is from Pirates of the Inner Sea. The spell doesn't have the [Evil] descriptor. I'm guessing that's an error, but I'm not certain of that.
FWIW, the Creative Director agrees that the spell should have the [Evil] descriptor.