wraithstrike |
Let's try it from another angle:
What IS spell casting combat comprised of? Save spells, touch spells at melee or range, terrain modification, summoning, etc.
Then, there are the components of spell casting itself; V, S, M, concentration checks, etc.
For example, I imagine this; an enemy starts casting hold person on me; and I get an opp attack. My answer? I disarm his material component. Even if I didn't build towards disarming, I don't have much to fear from HIS opp attk vs me.
If you are close enough to hit him he is not likely to cast hold person on you. Risking you making the save is a bad idea, and if he would cast while you are in his face he will do so defensively*. He will try to create distance. It is more likely that invisibility, mirror image, dimension door, or some other "escape" spell will be used.
*He might fail the concentration check and fizzle the spell, but I would not count on that.
PS: He might also be a magus, and welcome you to meet him in melee, unless of course by "caster" you only mean poor BAB casters such as witches and wizards.
Issac Daneil |
Issac Daneil wrote:So...what if we aim towards a character type that can survive past round one. Suspicion raging barbarian comes to mind.
As for closing the gap with casters; what if you came across as just a simple warrior minion. If your equipment wasn't magical, it's wouldn't show up to arcane sight. (Originally, I was willing to go with magic items being allowed, as pathfinder has made them necessary, but the goal remained all class features/race features be Ex.)
If you were disguised, and had bluff, you could close with a spell caster who assumes your a servant.
Lets get creative, even if the other camp is just trying to shut down the idea it help prompt the thinking
I thought that was SU, but it is EX. I think this is the best chance he has, but even high saves will not make someone a caster-killer. If he had spell sunder that would be even better, but that is SU.
There is no "other" camp. These types of discussion are things that are common. If a character does not have magical equipment surviving is difficult in this game, even when not facing a caster.
I don't think he is foregoing magic items however, just innate magical abilities.Of course a lot of this also depends on his GM. If his GM is going to help him by setting casters up to fail then this can work better, but if he runs them strategy wise, in an optimal manner, this is hard to do.
Now of course he will be with a party, but then we have to ask how much of this "caster killing" does he want to come directly from him. Would he be satisfied if the party cleric cast silence on the opposing caster to shut down spells so he could get the kill, or does he really want to be able to say his character can do this without any help?
Admittedly when I first read it I assumed he wanted to be able to solo the caster, but he might just want the kill.
Sorry if my other camp thing seemed too combative.
Anyway, I think it wouldn't be proper if the GM was pulling punches; so I'd say let it be hard. Hell, let it be a stacked deck, cause even now it is. But the opportunity to make it work still has to be possible.
To answer the party situation; I think that would depend on the individual character. My current idea is an angry youth from a martial oriented nation that has been seized by magicians pulling an invasion. So, his opinion would be to hate magic in all it's forms, and would want to rely on no magical assistance at all.
I think if we started talking about; The mage hater asks his cleric ally to cast Silence, we get off on the wrong foot. So, despite the difficulty, my goal is to see something arise that eschews magic in as many of it's forms as possible.
Now, this can be for a game where the goal IS an anti mage revolution, so perhaps the tone of the game IS more Batman like; find your target, learn, prepare, execute. Afterall, most dungeon crawl simulations lack the open endlessness that a world campaign can provide.
wraithstrike |
rorek55 wrote:Exactly! So, what's the next necessary step to consider? I cannot stop his spell; so how do I survive it? High Saves? Readying an action instead of relying on an opp attack? What comes AFTER step one has failed.Issac Daneil wrote:Let's try it from another angle:
What IS spell casting combat comprised of? Save spells, touch spells at melee or range, terrain modification, summoning, etc.
Then, there are the components of spell casting itself; V, S, M, concentration checks, etc.
For example, I imagine this; an enemy starts casting hold person on me; and I get an opp attack. My answer? I disarm his material component. Even if I didn't build towards disarming, I don't have much to fear from HIS opp attk vs me.
You can't rely on AoO from casting a spell, the DC to cast one without provoking is 15+spell level. at level 10, that is an easy check.
First of all I would shore up any weak save. As an example if your class has a poor will save then get Iron Will.
If possible try to gather as much information about him before you have to fight him. If he likes to use negative energy spells then have your cleric cast deathward, but if this falls into the "don't use magic" line of this idea, then you are going to make things harder than they need to be.
Issac Daneil |
Issac Daneil wrote:rorek55 wrote:Exactly! So, what's the next necessary step to consider? I cannot stop his spell; so how do I survive it? High Saves? Readying an action instead of relying on an opp attack? What comes AFTER step one has failed.Issac Daneil wrote:Let's try it from another angle:
What IS spell casting combat comprised of? Save spells, touch spells at melee or range, terrain modification, summoning, etc.
Then, there are the components of spell casting itself; V, S, M, concentration checks, etc.
For example, I imagine this; an enemy starts casting hold person on me; and I get an opp attack. My answer? I disarm his material component. Even if I didn't build towards disarming, I don't have much to fear from HIS opp attk vs me.
You can't rely on AoO from casting a spell, the DC to cast one without provoking is 15+spell level. at level 10, that is an easy check.
First of all I would shore up any weak save. As an example if your class has a poor will save then get Iron Will.
If possible try to gather as much information about him before you have to fight him. If he likes to use negative energy spells then have your cleric cast deathward, but if this falls into the "don't use magic" line of this idea, then you are going to make things harder than they need to be.
A fair point to make wraith, not gonna argue otherwise. But, boosting any weak saves is still a good idea of course.
As for the magus notion; I think this character would have to be ready to fight anything from Wizard, to Magus, to Bloodrager to Cleric.
Bandw2 |
To answer the party situation; I think that would depend on the individual character. My current idea is an angry youth from a martial oriented nation that has been seized by magicians pulling an invasion. So, his opinion would be to hate magic in all it's forms, and would want to rely on no magical assistance at all.
tbh, when i play character ideas like this, it's usually the kind where he learns enough to defeat his foes, and therefore he has to walk the thin line between where he is and becoming his enemy. it's just kinda funner that way thematically(for me).
or you could go divine... bring the inquisition down on all those magic users.
wraithstrike |
Actually; for an invisible mindblanked flying Wizard/Cleric/Druid/etc
I'd use my Superstitious Mounted Fury Barbarian on a Griffon with javelins, a Lance; Keen Scent from rage powers, and Improved Blind-fight.
Hopefully, I'd roll high on one of his save spells he uses, or be able to dodge a touch spell he throws at me, and in the next round, engage him.
He will likely go after your mount if that is your means of flight.
At higher levels he just blocks you going directly to him with any number of spells.
One thing I do as a GM is to not give the PC's a direct path to a caster that is not designed to be in melee. Fog spells, which can be countered with fog-cutting lenses are nice. Summon spells can also block you from charging and pouncing. So can wall spells. Of course they eventually get to him and kill him, but it is a group effort.
Maybe the party caster dispels my fog or my summons. Maybe someone cast a spell that prevents the caster from teleporting away. Maybe someone cast glitterdust so he cant' hide. etc etc
Bandw2 |
this archetype(or any of the other packs even) might be interesting, replace spell casting on an inquisitor, and get spell breaker.
rorek55 |
rorek55 wrote:Again, the ioun stone mages hate!More like the ioun stone your wallet hates!
'
possibly, but its damn well effective.
wraithstrike |
Dwarf and martial class-
GLory of Old, +4 vs all spells and SLA,
Iron will- +2 will
Improved fort- +2 fortthats +6/+4+/6 base without class or other bonuses. Grab armor with SR,
now, the wizard has to beat your SR, then you have to fail the save.
This only helps so much though...
Don't forget Steel Soul if you are a dwarf. It is in the APG. :)
wraithstrike |
Sorry if my other camp thing seemed too combative.
Anyway, I think it wouldn't be proper if the GM was pulling punches; so I'd say let it be hard. Hell, let it be a stacked deck, cause even now it is. But the opportunity to make it work still has to be possible.
To answer the party situation; I think that would depend on the individual character. My current idea is an angry youth from a martial oriented nation that has been seized by magicians pulling an invasion. So, his opinion would be to hate magic in all it's forms, and would want to rely on no magical assistance at all.
I think if we started talking about; The mage hater asks his cleric ally to cast Silence, we get off on the wrong foot. So, despite the difficulty, my goal is to see something arise that eschews magic in as many of it's forms as possible.
Now, this can be for a game where the goal IS an anti mage revolution, so perhaps the tone of the game IS more Batman like; find your target, learn, prepare, execute. Afterall, most dungeon crawl simulations lack the open endlessness that a world campaign can provide.
I did not see your comment as combative. I just don't want you to feel like it is a "vs" thing. Casters can do so many different things that no one character can combat everything they can possibly come up against without the aid of magic. You can push your defenses, but some spells are no save and/or no SR also.
Maze as an example just removes you from the battlefield.
Spamming saves until someone rolls low, is annoying, but it can be an actual problem. Personally I don't like to do that as a GM because I want the party to actually win, but if you can hold the the party up, and cast from safety, it is not a bad idea.
The GM is going to have to cater to you to some extent if you are a purely mundane character, and you want this to work.
Also if you want to fight "any" caster that is hard to do. Some of them fight as well as any pure martials when buffed. I am sure a druid, inquisitor, or warpriest can give you a run for your money.
You are basically asking for a mundane guy who is very good in combat, but the defenses and utility to bypass almost any spell or combination of spells. He would also have to survive while chewing through minions.
PS: I don't know how much your GM optimizes so all of the options we are naming may never come up. Rorek's idea with the ioun stone is nice, but if this is an antimagic revolution the stone probably won't last long. In a normal campaign it would be a lot more useful.
Inlaa |
I kind of wonder... Is there a way to make it so you can perform Dirty Tricks with a bow?
If so, an Orc Dirty Fighter at high levels could, using Dirty Trick Master and his class abilities...
Blind, deafen, daze, and pin someone with three attacks in a full attack with a longbow from a really absurdly long range.
That would ruin basically any caster's day, assuming the orc had the jump. Note the addendum there: the orc would need to have the jump.
But with a longbow and a decent stealth score and Far Shot and other things you could probably shoot from a mile away and hit the wizard.
NOTE: This isn't a for-sure means of beating a wizard by any means, but it's a means I'd try if I really wanted to. The question is if there's a way to perform Dirty Tricks with a bow.
wraithstrike |
I kind of wonder... Is there a way to make it so you can perform Dirty Tricks with a bow?
If so, an Orc Dirty Fighter at high levels could, using Dirty Trick Master and his class abilities...
Blind, deafen, daze, and pin someone with three attacks in a full attack with a longbow from a really absurdly long range.
That would ruin basically any caster's day, assuming the orc had the jump. Note the addendum there: the orc would need to have the jump.
But with a longbow and a decent stealth score and Far Shot and other things you could probably shoot from a mile away and hit the wizard.
NOTE: This isn't a for-sure means of beating a wizard by any means, but it's a means I'd try if I really wanted to. The question is if there's a way to perform Dirty Tricks with a bow.
The archer(archetype) fighter is the only way I know of to do combat maneuvers with a ranged weapon, and even then only certain ones are allowed.
Inlaa |
Inlaa wrote:The archer(archetype) fighter is the only way I know of to do combat maneuvers with a ranged weapon, and even then only certain ones are allowed.I kind of wonder... Is there a way to make it so you can perform Dirty Tricks with a bow?
If so, an Orc Dirty Fighter at high levels could, using Dirty Trick Master and his class abilities...
Blind, deafen, daze, and pin someone with three attacks in a full attack with a longbow from a really absurdly long range.
That would ruin basically any caster's day, assuming the orc had the jump. Note the addendum there: the orc would need to have the jump.
But with a longbow and a decent stealth score and Far Shot and other things you could probably shoot from a mile away and hit the wizard.
NOTE: This isn't a for-sure means of beating a wizard by any means, but it's a means I'd try if I really wanted to. The question is if there's a way to perform Dirty Tricks with a bow.
Yeah, the ones available to the archer are NOT useful against a caster either. I guess you could Sunder a spellbook or spell components pouch?
Chengar Qordath |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Rorek's idea with the ioun stone is nice, but if this is an antimagic revolution the stone probably won't last long. In a normal campaign it would be a lot more useful.
Yeah, if you're going to be going up against casters regularly it won't last long. Also, something like a summoning/buffing/control specialist might be able to largely bypass the stone, since none of his spells would be directly affecting the martial. Or the summoner could call up minions with spellcasting to burn the stone out quickly.
Bob Bob Bob |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So I totally forgot about Cyclonic, there's your anti-Wind Wall/Fickle Winds.
As for the rest of your plan, especially if you want Wizards played up all the way, no. You're still doomed. Let's go through the hows and whys.
Step 1: Assume they know you're coming. People do sometimes stretch the limits of divination on these boards but "Am I going to get attacked/ambushed today" is a very simple yes/no question. Which version depends on whether they're passive (staying somewhere) or proactive (going out and doing things). Personally I tended to narrow it down with figuring out whether they could actually reach my demiplane or if they were relying on me going through my normal routine. Also usually a second casting of Contact Other Plane just to play the odds of a wrong answer. Either way the wizard sets up an ambush by either picking the trapped demiplane to wait on or just bypassing any weak points in their routine and beefing up security.
Step 2. Do not attempt to fight magic with anti-magic/magic absorption in any kind of straight up fight. The second it becomes obvious magic doesn't work against you directly you're going in a pit/being lubed up/getting monsters thrown at you/getting buildings thrown at you/etc. Magic Absorption is good once, then the surprise is gone and you get to learn why Conjuration is probably too good. At the highest level the Wizard literally gets to throw the bestiary at you to see what sticks (Gate). Mythic is more a hindrance than a help here as there's a monster that can make you Mythic (Guardian Dragon).
Step 3. You need to be immune to everything you can get your hands on. Otherwise it's dazing ball lightning/rime snowball/etc. for the lovely battlefield control if you get nicked with damage. Clashing Rocks is a personal favorite for ranged touch save or be buried alive. Quickened True Strike is trivial at that level to make sure it hits (and no defense for touch AC I know of scales enough to beat True Strike). Power Word <X> is SR: Yes but Save: No and doesn't require a touch attack. If you get hurt enough you get to be blind/stunned/dead. Can't even silence yourself, the victim don't have the hear the word for it to work. Maze is similar and comes with the added benefit of prep time for when the victim "escapes". Pools of lava, prismatic walls, and summons are popular "congratulations". Enervation and Energy Drain are a great way to nerf someone to oblivion unless they have a defense against negative levels. Unfortunately, as far as I know the only way to get these defenses (or defenses to any of the rest of these) is through magic or magic items. By the way, any defense you need your mount also needs otherwise they can just blast it out from under you. Oh, and you need a good ranged attack because Reverse Gravity is SR: No Save: No (unless you can grab onto something).
Step 4. Unless you have some way to magic out an extra standard action readying an action to stop spellcasting in melee is always going to leave you next to an opponent you have not attacked, making it obvious what you're going for. Without Step Up you're absolutely useless, even with Step Up the opponent can just, you know, move and eat the AoO to guarantee they get the spell off. So unless they're somehow crippled and near death already a surprised wizard can just take a hit and teleport/DDoor/Plane Shift away and prepare for the next ambush.
Step 5. You can't successfully ambush a wizard unless you can guarantee you can beat their initiative and take them out in one round except at very low levels. Once they get high enough they can just leave whenever they want. Oh, and you need to prevent them from coming back, because all it takes is a cleric 9 friend (or bound planetar, etc.) to bring them right back, still full power and angry at you. If you fail once the wizard is now hunting you and there's nothing you can do to stop them.
Step 6. You need a way to track or identify the real wizard. Project Image, Astral Projection, Simulacrum, lots of ways to have a fake wizard out and about while the real wizard is somewhere safe (but will be aware the fake is destroyed). Same deal as the last one, angry wizard hunting you is always going to end with you on the losing side. Lamest method they just go supervillain and send minions after you constantly from their demiplane but again, you have no way of reaching them or stopping them from doing this.
That's just a wizard.
The Cleric gets enough self-buffing to take you on themself as well as the ability to heal themself for 10 HP/level should the going get rough. Also, undead horde. If they have a friend Polar Midnight + Irresistible Dance is no-save trapped in ice and can't breathe.
The Druid will be a Tiger riding a larger Tiger shooting lightning, summoning tornados, surrounded by other Tigers (just found this spell, awesome). Unless they decide to go elemental, or use Shapechange for dragon or giant. Seriously though, don't try to fight druids. They can probably outfight anyone without magic.
Eigengrau |
A Dex based swashbuckler, using his 11th level deed to do Con Bleed damage. Get an Impervious Adamantine Anchoring Spell Storing weapon. Use dimensional anchor for the stored spell maybe.
Once you hit with that deed he is losing Con and hit points each round and going nowhere. Move behind him and attack with another weapon.
Hell, this works on anybody w/o Str 30 & Restoration magic.
LoneKnave |
Inlaa wrote:The archer(archetype) fighter is the only way I know of to do combat maneuvers with a ranged weapon, and even then only certain ones are allowed.I kind of wonder... Is there a way to make it so you can perform Dirty Tricks with a bow?
If so, an Orc Dirty Fighter at high levels could, using Dirty Trick Master and his class abilities...
Blind, deafen, daze, and pin someone with three attacks in a full attack with a longbow from a really absurdly long range.
That would ruin basically any caster's day, assuming the orc had the jump. Note the addendum there: the orc would need to have the jump.
But with a longbow and a decent stealth score and Far Shot and other things you could probably shoot from a mile away and hit the wizard.
NOTE: This isn't a for-sure means of beating a wizard by any means, but it's a means I'd try if I really wanted to. The question is if there's a way to perform Dirty Tricks with a bow.
Bounty hunter can dirty trick anyone he SAs. No range restriction on the ability, so by RAW it should work at range (only up to 30 feet tho).
Kyrrion |
Bandw2 |
Lune wrote:So if this is no magic to help the martial character what about magic items? I mean... you know who made those things, right?Wouldn't this work?
trap feat is trap, you pick one skill (such as basket weaving) and you now can only make magical baskets, you can't take the feat multiple times either.
so craft(Bows) lets you make magically awesome bows... and nothing else.
wraithstrike |
It occurs to me...what if you go all Technic League? Kingmaker 5 shows that tech functions in anti magic, but requires charges, so perhaps granting the character technology would be the best idea
Most casters are not going to put themselves into an antimagic field, and as a nonmagical entity you can't create one. If they know you are coming, and they might then conjuration spells which don't care about antimagic will likely kill you.
Tech items are also very rare and expensive, and while not "magic" are not really much better if you are trying to avoid magic-like affects.
Issac Daneil |
Issac Daneil wrote:It occurs to me...what if you go all Technic League? Kingmaker 5 shows that tech functions in anti magic, but requires charges, so perhaps granting the character technology would be the best ideaMost casters are not going to put themselves into an antimagic field, and as a nonmagical entity you can't create one. If they know you are coming, and they might then conjuration spells which don't care about antimagic will likely kill you.
Tech items are also very rare and expensive, and while not "magic" are not really much better if you are trying to avoid magic-like affects.
I'd say the tech thing is morally acceptable to him, because it's not magic. If anything, he may consider it the proper equalizer.
And as for it's rarity, if the GM of a home game is cool with tech in the first place, I could just take Techno-crafting feats
lemeres |
Oh, here is something- dirty trick build with an eldritch guardian?
If you are level 11, you can grab dirty trick master, and you and your familiar can take the caster straight to nauseated in a single round. That means that the caster cannot cast spells, attack, or really do much of anything. They cannot even use the standard action needed to get rid of a dirty trick. With this lasting for 1d4 rounds minimum... you can make quick work of a caster.
Nice, simple, and it only needs 4 feats to work- enough room to get a lot of other tricks in.
Kaouse |
Dragon Totem Wings
Barbarians come close with Spell Sunder but even they lack abilities to deal with say...An Invisible, Mindblanked, Flying [Insert Caster Here]
Inquisitor make the best Anti-Mages since their toolkit is pretty versatile and there's a whole archetype dedicated to it. It just ultimately loses out to Casters due to the dichotomy of the game.
Our prospective Mageslayer is going to kill the mage with his weapon right? Unless using a Bow(Which promptly gets countered by magic), he'll never reach melee without magical support.
I'd say the Magus class is just as Anti-Caster as the Inquisitor, if not more. Apart from the Disruptive and Spellbreaker Arcana (which the Inquisitor does NOT have access to), the Magus can also select the Arcana, "Lingering Pain" to turn damage done by their weapon into a buffed concentration check for whomever they hit. Plus they get Counterstrike, to attack casters who DO manage to cast defensively. Last but not least, access to both Disrutive and Spellbreaker allows them to take goodies like Ray Shield (which only a Skirnir can use effectively) and, more importantly, Teleport Tactician.
They do suffer from much lower, not as easily boosted saves, but when they get access to the Reflection Magus Arcana (immediate action spell turning) it matters a heck of a lot less. Did I mention access to all sorts of other delights, like Dimension Door (by strict RAW, you can even use it with Spell Combat and get all your iterative attacks!) so they can always close distance. If you're a Kensai Magus, you can even win in Initiative! Win Initiative, Dimension Door next to caster and hit them with your phase locking whip and said caster will have a hard time escaping you unscathed.
That said, a lot of this only works on a caster without buffs (not very likely at high levels). If the wizard has even an ounce of prep time, no other class really stands a chance at taking them out.
Kyrrion |
Kyrrion: Sure, it can work. But have you checked the maker's mark on all of your magical gear? What brand do you wear? Doesn't that work both ways though? I don't recall reading that all magic items are made by a caster (though that's a detail I would've skimmed past anyway to be fair).
I'm just pointing out the possibility exists that you don't necessarily need a caster for magic items. You could have an edgy master blacksmith who doesn't need you or your group's crap who can make magic items himself.
Master smith is an typeof character (not necessarily as PC mind you) that I am quite fond of, to be honest.
Righty_ |
Combine gunslinger with rogue or ninja. Study the target prior to combat (favorite places to go - typical proections - freiends, etc.) Start combat with a surprise round, sap him to unconscious with phase locking adamantine ammunition, walk up and coup de grace. Use deadeye with sniper's goggles. Rogue talents surprise attack and snap shot. Be sure to start the combat, try to max initiatives for round 1, dead by round 2.
(even better if you have a friend with lookout teamwork to ensure a full round surprise - but its not allowed here.)
GreyWolfLord |
I had a Monk that was pretty effective against Spellcasters. A Lot of that are the saves that you can build on for a Monk, and some of are the abilities of a Monk (can't dispel stealth for instance). Many of those who say spellcasters can't be defeated ONLY rely on spellcasters that are omniscient, omnipotent, and basically know everyone in a world of millions and their exact doings at all times (basically they play or act as if a Wizard has an INT of around 99-100...improbable most likely).
Ignoring those that play wizards as having an INT of 100 vs. what a normal wizard will know and do...it's very possible to have a wizard killing martial. The ones that I've seen do it regularly are VERY specialized however. In fact, that may be the ONLY thing they are really useful in doing...killing spellcasters, and sometimes a specific class of spellcaster.
I also saw Rogues one shot Wizards. The wizards aren't necessarily stupid or played foolishly (in fact, most wizards who are not holed up constantly could be one shotted by a Rogue in the right circumstances...the right circumstances being key).
One of the biggest things to look at are your saves and immunity to magic.
Being able to walk through walls of magical protection can sometimes be excessively useful in fighting mages. Of course, that may require some magic items which you aren't looking to rely on.
High saves and abilities that counter magic are what you probably are looking for.
Bandw2 |
Combine gunslinger with rogue or ninja. Study the target prior to combat (favorite places to go - typical proections - freiends, etc.) Start combat with a surprise round, sap him to unconscious with phase locking adamantine ammunition, walk up and coup de grace. Use deadeye with sniper's goggles. Rogue talents surprise attack and snap shot. Be sure to start the combat, try to max initiatives for round 1, dead by round 2.
(even better if you have a friend with lookout teamwork to ensure a full round surprise - but its not allowed here.)
he's specifically looking for stuff at this point to help him if his alpha strike fails.
wraithstrike |
Oh, here is something- dirty trick build with an eldritch guardian?
If you are level 11, you can grab dirty trick master, and you and your familiar can take the caster straight to nauseated in a single round. That means that the caster cannot cast spells, attack, or really do much of anything. They cannot even use the standard action needed to get rid of a dirty trick. With this lasting for 1d4 rounds minimum... you can make quick work of a caster.
Nice, simple, and it only needs 4 feats to work- enough room to get a lot of other tricks in.
There is no magic involved in this class at all, not even SU?
wraithstrike |
I had a Monk that was pretty effective against Spellcasters. A Lot of that are the saves that you can build on for a Monk, and some of are the abilities of a Monk (can't dispel stealth for instance). Many of those who say spellcasters can't be defeated ONLY rely on spellcasters that are omniscient, omnipotent, and basically know everyone in a world of millions and their exact doings at all times (basically they play or act as if a Wizard has an INT of around 99-100...improbable most likely).
Ignoring those that play wizards as having an INT of 100 vs. what a normal wizard will know and do...it's very possible to have a wizard killing martial. The ones that I've seen do it regularly are VERY specialized however. In fact, that may be the ONLY thing they are really useful in doing...killing spellcasters, and sometimes a specific class of spellcaster.
Or we could just see things differently because we run or play the game differently. Nobody is saying no caster can die. We are saying there is no one build that is going to able to take on any and every caster. Any build that can do that can take out pretty much anything. The OP however is taking it further by trying to do it without magic.
I am sure the OP would like to see some examples of how the things you have witnessed were done.
lemeres |
Quote:There is no magic involved in this class at all, not even SUThe familiar is EX. Any SU ability is on the familiar, not the character.
There is a grand total of three relevant SU ability on an eldritch guardian's familiar- emphatic link, speak with master, and speak with animals of its kind. Everything else is either EX, or only related to familiars owned by casters (share spells, for exmaple)
Of course, you would typically want to go mauler for this. That has a few abilities, and the good ones are SU- growing to medium size, damage reduction, and a small morale boost when you kill something of note.
Still, the size thing is just getting it up to animal companion levels, and the rest...ok, a bit iffy, I might admit.
lemeres |
LoneKnave wrote:I was asking about the entire class but lemeres posted it. The class has SU abilities which the OP is avoiding.Quote:There is no magic involved in this class at all, not even SUThe familiar is EX. Any SU ability is on the familiar, not the character.
Well no, the familiar has SU abilities. The eldritch guardian fighter itself is fairly mundane.
wraithstrike |
ok. I looked it up.
However
It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once.
The Eldritch Guardian does nothing to change that so it still has to get access to the caster, and make the CMD check. Even a wizard is likely to have a CMD high enough to avoid worrying about a familiar.
lemeres |
ok. I looked it up.
However
familiars wrote:It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once.The Eldritch Guardian does nothing to change that so it still has to get access to the caster, and make the CMD check. Even a wizard is likely to have a CMD high enough to avoid worrying about a familiar.
?
Odd, since later on in the same thing, it has stuff like this:
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.
Hit Points: The familiar has half the master's total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.
Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.
Saving Throws: For each saving throw, use either the familiar's base save bonus (Fortitude +2, Reflex +2, Will +0) or the master's (as calculated from all his classes), whichever is better. The familiar uses its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn't share any of the other bonuses that the master might have on saves.
Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.
As in, a lot of that stuff is later changed when it acquires your stats. The 'retains its so and so' bit could be included due to the fact that you are switching to magical beast type from animal type- without that line, its BAB would go from 3/4 to full and the hit dice would go from d8's to d10's. You do not change due to the type change, but due to the changes made from being a familiar.
But I suppose you have room for argument- does the line about gaining BAB for attacks count for maneuvers or not? Does it count for maneuvers that are associated with attack (such as trip)?
EDIT- AH, found supporting evidence. Let us look at how Paizo itself handles this issue bye looking at the witch icon, feiya
Feiya at level 1
Feiya at level 12
Looking at the included stat block for her familiar, you can see that BAB went from 0 to +6/+1, CMB went from +0 to +5, and that CMD went from +9 to +13. While I didn't check out all the math, the fact remains- the numbers changes, and this appears to be solely due to Feiya's increased stats.
So end result- at level 11, I can have a mauler fox with 20 STr (9+4 when it moves to medium+2 battle form+5 scaling bonus), full BAB, and all the bonuses from feats. So really, assuming it gets similar stat boosting items as its master, it might actually have the better chance at succeeding.
wraithstrike |
I missed this:
"Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind."
That(dirty trick) might work against a poor BAB caster if the familar can get to him, but against a 3/4 caster I am am not expecting it to work, even if the familiar can get to him.
That archetype also gives a bonus vs will saves, but it unless there is some multiclassing involved fighter levels alone won't be enough, but if he multiclasses the familiar stops improving.
edit:
The archetypes says "At 1st level, an eldritch guardian gains a familiar, treating his fighter level as his effective wizard level for the purpose of this ability.
This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 1st level."
PS: Combat Maneuvers are attack rolls so they would apply to maneuvers.
lemeres |
Well, the familiar would get all your BAB, saves, skills, 1/2 HP from across all classes. That is a constant for familiars. The eldritch guardian ability also lets you share combat feats in general- it only says 'any' you possess, so it doesn't matter where it comes from.
Really, the only things you lose out on are the scaling bonuses that the familiar itself gains when you level. So, assuming a mauler, that would be strength bonus (replaces int bonus or regular familiars), natural armor, and the mini capstone at level 11 of DR 5/magic.
But even at level 3, you can have a medium sized familiar with 16 str and +2 natural armor. Get the fox, put some armor on it, and it can still do fine.
EDIT- ah, this was confusion about the whether the archetype got familiar scaling at all. Fair enough. Yeah, the familiar sans the battle form would not be as great a maneuver buddy.
wraithstrike |
So to sum things up this fighter's familar gets better at using dirty trick, but as the levels go up casters get better at avoiding and then resisting contact. The fighter is relying on numbers while casters tend to do things that don't care about numbers.
Now of course not every caster will have the right spells ready to avoid this, but it is not something that I would expect to work since the OP is going after every caster not just ones with low BAB. Druids, clerics, and oracles that are made to fight in combat still have their spells, and might one round that familiar for getting to close assuming they don't have a companion(like a druid) that does it for them.
The problem here is that the casters just have many more options than anyone else. You can do X and it might work against someone, but then you meet someone, and it has no affect at all. Clerics have a spell that can allow them to go incorporeal, and they can still attack you normally with spells. If things don't go their way they can squeeze the area of a creature 3 sizes below them aka through cracks to escape. Then they change the spell load out and come back with new tactics. This is not until level 11, and you might have ghost touch weapons, but that weapon is likely stuck being ghost touch and you may need another enhancement for another caster.
PS: I am playing a mundane type right now, and I am devising all types of ideas to get the drop on them so this thread is of interest to me also. I normally play 4 or 6th level casters such as bard/inquisitors/rangers.
Righty_ |
he's specifically looking for stuff at this point to help him if his alpha strike fails.
Dispelling strike is fairly effective to peel of protections, shadow dancer for hide in plain sight. Shoot and stealth, fairly nonmagical, add in the shadow to draw strength and do strength damage on pressure points (once the active magical defenses are down). Even strength casters rarely have more than 20 strength...
A nonmagical flight based tetori...how about a dragon :-)
Its still not 100% for the very reason there are wide ranges of casters, a single "martial survivor" cant prep against every "spell book".
Charon's Little Helper |
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Make sure to be a dwarf with Steel Soul - whatever class you pick. +5 to all saves vs spells as well as an extra +1 ability mod for will/fort? Yes please!
Also - make sure to get greater blind-fight. It allows you to virtually ignore most standard spellcaster defenses. (mirror image/displacement etc)
Of course - much depends what level you're talking about. Most of the nay-sayers are talking primarily about wizards with 8th & 9th level spells. Below that it becomes far easier to be anti-caster.