I'd much rather they find some way to slow Savitar down than ONCE AGAIN speed Barry up.
Also, I really don't want to see a team of speedsters. I HATE it in the comics... I certainly don't want it in the show. Nothing diminishes a hero more... than adding in 2, 3, 5, 8 characters who can all do exactly the same thing he can.
The whole point of a super hero is to have powers and abilities that set you above the common person... but if EVERYONE can do it??? Then the hero isn't special or needed at all.
For that matter I'm not a HUGE fan of the CW 'team' concept either... but at least vibe and Cait have different abilities... though we still end up with super-scientist Flash-fact Barry being told by someone else that vibraring will warm him up...
Normally I agree getting a little help from friends can sometimes diminish a Hero but it can be used in a good way sometimes it shows how impressive the villain is as well. Most of the CW shows are about team-work anyways. I don't know that they will be moving away from that just yet.
Just the three flashes would be fine for me. What I would like is for them to lay off the time travel for at least a season.
Normally I agree getting a little help from friends can sometimes diminish a Hero but it can be used in a good way sometimes it shows how impressive the villain is as well. Most of the CW shows are about team-work anyways. I don't know that they will be moving away from that just yet.
Just the three flashes would be fine for me. What I would like is for them to lay off the time travel for at least a season.
Jay would be awesome, but he also has to hop dimensions to make it work, so we know it won't be overkill. Wally concerns me. He's in a position to be there all the time and turn barry into a footnote in his own show... especially with his "He's already faster than Barry was at this stage...."
If Jesse leaves her universe to be with Wally??? That's just too much.
Same thing with villains. I LOOOOOVE Reverse Flash. I always have. The whole 'Bizarro/nemesis' villain has always been my favorite of the galleries. Bizzaro/Zod, Sinestro, Reverse Flash, etc. etc. However it only works when there is ONE character like that. (Bizarro and Zod are pretty different in my mind...) But really, going from Thawne to Zoom to Savitar... and I'll assume Black Flash next year (saw a hint of it last finale...) That's just too much.
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Regarding Savitar, I wonder if (for purposes of the TV show) he was originally an "ordinary" speedster who inadvertently became One with the Speed Force -- comic readers have seen that happen -- and it's that state of being that has changed him. His acolytes are trying to bring him back from the Speed Force dimension, and until that happens, he can only manifest on Earth partially and/or for short periods.
In the comics, Savitar's origin goes like this:
Max Mercury was an Old West speedster who kept trying to merge with the speed force, but each time he just sort of bounced off it and was thrown forward in time.
Cut to the 70's or so, and Savitar gains his powers in an accident involving the experimental, super-fast plane he's piloting. He trains himself and studies everything he can about speed and the speed force. Eventually, Savitar finds Max, they argue, and fight. Max can't beat him, so he brings him near the edge of the speed force and bounces Savitar off it the same way he's done himself.
Cut forward another few decades, and Savitar finishes his time jump in the Wally West Flash era.
Wally fights him, but since Wally has already been to the speed force and returned, he's able to bring Savitar there, where the bad guy is subsumed by/becomes one with the force.
Right now all I know is the team up/cross over is coming and we'll see if Barry and the rest can hold the line.
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Kind of excited reminds me of the justice league cartoons first few episodes.
Vid,
It does indeed! :)
So thoughts on tonight's truly actual crossover episode?
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So thoughts on tonight's truly actual crossover episode?
Hall of Justice
Good damn I laughed out loud when I saw that building.
Revelations for Stien I think is important for Barry. It shows that while Flashpoint did screw over a lot of people, not all the changes are bad ones. Hearing that news is just the thing Barry needs to perk him up.
HR + Wally....hooboy that is a disaster in the making
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This definitely felt like more of a proper crossover.
*Despite the abundance of characters I felt like everyone got at least a few worthwhile lines.
*Cisco's anger with Barry, while entirely justified, is getting a little old. I don't expect resolution right away but I wish the writers wouldn't spend so much time dwelling on it.
*I love the inclusion of Supergirl but adding her to the cast creates the classic optimization problem - you've got one character several leagues ahead of the rest. Anything that challenges her will squash everyone else. Anything that the others can handle would be wiped out in an instant by Supergirl. Mind control worked as a one-off but I'm curious how they're going to make the Dominator's a believable threat in the next two parts.
*Wally going to HR for training makes zero sense. He's got no experience with metas, no scientific background, and no combat skills. It'd make more sense for Wally to join the military or something.
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Revelations for Stein I think is important for Barry. It shows that while Flashpoint did screw over a lot of people, not all the changes are bad ones. Hearing that news is just the thing Barry needs to perk him up.
Or make things even worse, since now he can't 'fix' things for people like Cisco and Caitlin, without effectively murdering Stein's daughter.
It's just made things messier, since now he's got a reason why the timeline can't just be reset (and Caitlin has to stay Killer-Frost-in-waiting and Dante Ramon has to stay dead), since Barry now knows someone that will cease to exist (and a friend who will be hurt by that) if things get 'rebooted' again.
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Hate to say it, but.....the writers are really f%##ing this up.
I can see now that this is only VERY loosely based on the original Invasion story. You have the Dominators and their desire to do something about Earth's metahumans. And....that's it. Everything else in no way resembles the comic story. The Dominators came to Earth decades ago.....but then left. They want to control a handful of heroes. No, wait! They want to kidnap a bunch of heroes. The entire plot is one big mess so far.
Oh, hey, let's all just walk into this place the evil aliens are holding the President, in one big group, with no plan whatsoever. Then, just for s@#~s and giggles, let's just stand their while the alien disintegrates the aforementioned President. It's not like we have anyone who's super fast, while nigh invulnerable, and with a heroic persona who likes to save people at the last minute.
Oh, hey! All our friends have been mind-controlled by the aliens and are now trying to kill us. Too bad it's only the two of us to take them on. It's not like we have a guy who can shoot powerful vibratory waves out of his hands, who could maybe come help us......
They need to change the opening dialogue by Barry to indicate that he is just a really fast guy, but never the Fastest Man Alive. Especially since it looks like they're setting up Wally to be even faster.
Speaking of Wally....I almost found myself wishing Supergirl would have broken his legs. He and his entire storyline (especially the crappy way Iris is treating him) has just become annoying. Especially now with this "HR is going to train him" b$@*%$~@.
All the boohoo-ing and fallout over Barry changing the timeline is getting real old, real fast. As Monty Python might say...."GET ON WITH IT!"
I've got Arrow and Legends set to record, but I'm not sure I'll even bother to watch them.....
*Wally going to HR for training makes zero sense. He's got no experience with metas, no scientific background, and no combat skills. It'd make more sense for Wally to join the military or something.I interpret it as desperation. No one else is giving him a chance, so Wally goes for the other member no one takes seriously and has to prove himself.
Plus Wally has interacted the least with H.R. He's probably interpreting him as equivalent to the versions of that character, who are way more competent.
Revelations for Stein I think is important for Barry. It shows that while Flashpoint did screw over a lot of people, not all the changes are bad ones. Hearing that news is just the thing Barry needs to perk him up.Or make things even worse, since now he can't 'fix' things for people like Cisco and Caitlin, without effectively murdering Stein's daughter.
It's just made things messier, since now he's got a reason why the timeline can't just be reset (and Caitlin has to stay Killer-Frost-in-waiting and Dante Ramon has to stay dead), since Barry now knows someone that will cease to exist (and a friend who will be hurt by that) if things get 'rebooted' again.
Actually are we so sure Barry is responsible for Stein's daughter? Stein starting getting the memory flashbacks IIRC AFTER the 80's trip where he yelled at his younger self for not valuing his wife enough.
Flashpoint divergence begins...what when Barry is 8 or so? Stein's daughter looks about the same age or maybe even older than Barry. That means she would have been born pre-flashpoint timeline reset. I think it's going to turn out in the LoT episode that Stein himself caused that ripple, not Barry.
Also I think Cisco IS going to go villain at this point. His vibe moment was misinterpreted: He is the bad guy in that scene.
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Hate to say it, but.....the writers are really f$#!ing this up.
** spoiler omitted **
I've got Arrow and Legends set to record, but I'm not sure I'll even bother to watch them.....
You kind of have been stating something like this on most episodes. Maybe...if you don't like the show much, you should maybe tune out? I hate-watched Gotham for almost two years before finally pulling the plug, and I am so glad I did.
After 2 seasons, you should be used to everyone being faster than Barry just 'cuz.
Was happy with the show until the last episode of season 2. W.T.F?!?
But, everyone that Barry runs into that's a speedster, and some that aren't, are faster than Barry. It's highly annoying.
Also, one of these days the time wraiths are gonna mug Barry in an alley.
Actually are we so sure Barry is responsible for Stein's daughter? Stein starting getting the memory flashbacks IIRC AFTER the 80's trip where he yelled at his younger self for not valuing his wife enough.
Flashpoint divergence begins...what when Barry is 8 or so? Stein's daughter looks about the same age or maybe even older than Barry. That means she would have been born pre-flashpoint timeline reset. I think it's going to turn out in the LoT episode that Stein himself caused that ripple, not Barry.
I'm not sure if it ever explicitly came up in the Series, but in the comics, Flashpoint didn't just change things going forward, it rippled up and down the timestream, making alterations well before Barry was born.
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I've just had a brilliant idea for Season 4 (and whatever seasons they'd be on for the other shows)....
If they adopt this route, they could have Hermes/Mercury (whichever you prefer) as the main villain for the Flash. Since he's a god, it's pretty much a guarantee he'd be faster than Barry. Sure, it might seem like it would be a duplication of this season's villian, what with Savitar claiming to be a god, but if they keep more of Savitar's comic book background, he's just someone who's just really full of himself and thinks he's a god.
Over in Arrow, they can throw him up against Appollo and Artemis. The Legends can be thrown against the Fates, and maybe some others. Supergirl can go up against Zeus.
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Also I think Cisco IS going to go villain at this point. His vibe moment was misinterpreted: He is the bad guy in that scene.
Didn't they already fulfill that little bit of vision prophecy? When he and Caitlin duked it out while she was being overcome by the Killer Frost persona. He was definitely the good guy in that sequence.
Also I think Cisco IS going to go villain at this point. His vibe moment was misinterpreted: He is the bad guy in that scene.Didn't they already fulfill that little bit of vision prophecy? When he and Caitlin duked it out while she was being overcome by the Killer Frost persona. He was definitely the good guy in that sequence.
I think Disco and Caitlin were in different outfits..I think that is still to come.
Wow. Some really mixed reactions here folks. Am I the only one that liked this cross over and episode?
I get that Supergirl COULD have saved the President AND they could have come up with a plan, but let's recall something: Heatwave/Roy doesn't really do plans.
Also the Dominators I think are just getting started, mind control was just an opening move. I'm positive they'll have more tricks up their sleeves.
As for Cisco going evil...not sure about that. I still think Alchemy will come along and some how turn Catilin back into Killer Frost. So then we'll get that. Maybe.
Regardless this was a good opening move. I do agree with A-Zombie that they should try War of the Gods. If only because we might get Amazonian Artemis and/or Donna Troy. Or hell Cassie!
I do think they might have overplayed some of her powers, but I also think the cross over with Supergirl reveals something that might be useful in fighting the Dominators: Medusa might be the key to stopping the Dominators.
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I get that Supergirl COULD have saved the President AND they could have come up with a plan, but let's recall something: Heatwave/Roy doesn't really do plans.
Speaking of Mick, it's funny that Barry and Ollie split up, with Barry leading Supergirl away, and Ollie getting in a fight with White Canary, Spartan and Speedy, while Mick just sort of wanders off-screen and is not seen again.
Was he doing something else? Did he take a smoke break? Did he just not care enough, even mind controlled, to run after Ollie? Did the writers just figure that Ollie had enough to deal with dodging Spartan's bullets, Speedy's arrows and White Canary's throwing stars / staff-thingies, without having to also dodge blasts of fire?
Also, why on earth doesn't he strap on that Chronos armor, when stuff gets real? He used to be able to take on the entire team, and even damage the Waverider, in that suit, and it's just sitting around, not being used...
On the upside, Atom has his suit back, and much faster than I would have expected. Yay for that. Whiny Ray was whiny.
Set,
Whiny Ray was more annoying than powered up Wally honestly. So yeah, glad he's got a new suit.
I think Mick didn't come to after Barry clocked him or something. Or was it Wally? I can't remember.
As for the armor, maybe it needs a new power source and he doesn't know how to get one for it?
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I am kind of bummed that the show doesn't do more with Mick's timelord training. He should be the one responsible for maintaining the ship and explaining time travel rules to the crew. He endured lifetimes of training/indoctrination. Did he just forget everything when he came around and rejoined the good guys? I would love a scene where the team is faced with some complex technical problem and Mick just shrugs, steps forward, and fixes it with ease.
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I loved Kara's introduction to the whole crew and Diggles abrupt "I'm convinced." when she demonstrated why she's called Supergirl. I belly laughed.
And I loved Mick's "I'm gonna call you 'Skirt'" line, which the very next scene got tossed out the window as he shouted for Supergirl to do something!
I also liked that they nailed Supergirl's earth down to Earth-38.
While I agree with a lot of the criticisms so far, I still thoroughly enjoyed the episode and I'm eager for the next two.
Feral,
I think the writers prefer to have Mick just not be a bad ass since they've already got White Canary. But then Legends of Tomorrow's first season was pretty meh. Second season at least has improved.
Dal,
I did too, (belly laugh that it) Plus the Earth-38 reference was awesome! (Elseworlds AND old school reference/meta reference!)
Feral,
No I'm saying White Canary is the bad ass of the group and having a more bad ass male guy instead diminishes her role.
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I'm not suggesting he become some kind of ultimate badass. I'm suggesting he know how time ships work. White Canary can continue to be the best fighter in the history of everything.
So your argument is that White Canary should be an expert at things she knows nothing about because... feminism?
White Canary can be the ship's leader, the best fighter, the ultimate seductress, etc. Mick should be their technical expert because he spent literal lifetimes undergoing time lord training. Instead the writers act like that whole thing never happened.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I thought it was a fantastic episode. It handled a huge cast of characters well, the hero vs. hero fight was second only to Captain America Civil War (which had both a bit more budget and more screen time to devote), and had lots of great interactions. I really appreciated the time Barry and Ollie had to talk things out and share with each other. I completely get that from Barry's point of view, Oliver is such a bad ass that he has everything figured out, and seeing that his backstory has tragedy also, and Oliver saying to Barry that his mistakes are completely natural hopefully will give Barry some perspective. I think too many of the critics of Barry approach things from a gamist/comic nerd point of view of "of course you shouldn't do that, it's obviously dumb" rather than the point of view of someone caught up in their emotions, like most people are.
I also liked the return to the future newspaper article from S1.
I also liked that they nailed Supergirl's Earth down to Earth-38.
How does that make sense? Nearly 50 other Earths to choose from and they manage to pick one that her own show's history definitively contradicts: on Earth-38, Superman appeared on the scene in 1938 and from there time passed much as it does here on Earth Prime, with the result that there have been multiple generations of superheroes -- literal biological generations, not just waves of younger heroes every decade or so -- since Superman in '38 and Batman in '39. On Kara's Earth, Superman only appeared in the last 12-15 years and is still a young man.
Damon,
They're just paying homage to Superman, not actually using the formal DC Multiverse where Earth-38 is like that Elseworlds thingie.
Feral,
That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying she's an expert in fighting and being a bad ass. Not time travel.
Also the writers tend to ignore things... like lots of things.
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I'm not suggesting he become some kind of ultimate badass. I'm suggesting he know how time ships work. White Canary can continue to be the best fighter in the history of everything.
So your argument is that White Canary should be an expert at things she knows nothing about because... feminism?
White Canary can be the ship's leader, the best fighter, the ultimate seductress, etc. Mick should be their technical expert because he spent literal lifetimes undergoing time lord training. Instead the writers act like that whole thing never happened.
How much do we think that indoctrination covered? I can drive a big rig, but I really couldn't build one, or repair one, or really understand the science of why they work.
FLy the ship, work the medical computer, get his orders, and program cooridinates??? Yeah, he can probably do that... but so can other people now, and he's not really the type that would want that responsibility... or follow orders... or really personal power. Money... and burning pretty much sums him up.
I suspect that Rory just likes to be comfortable. The other suit was more powerful and capable.... but did it set things on fire? Because... if it didn't set things on fire, then what use was it?
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Yeah honestly if you tried to give ol heat wave responsibility he would probably burn the whole place down laughing while he was doing it just to make a point.
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Also mad props to Kara for keeping a straight face after the Burned my parents alive and enjoy arson speech.
Actually are we so sure Barry is responsible for Stein's daughter? Stein starting getting the memory flashbacks IIRC AFTER the 80's trip where he yelled at his younger self for not valuing his wife enough.Flashpoint divergence begins...what when Barry is 8 or so? Stein's daughter looks about the same age or maybe even older than Barry. That means she would have been born pre-flashpoint timeline reset. I think it's going to turn out in the LoT episode that Stein himself caused that ripple, not Barry.
Also I think Cisco IS going to go villain at this point. His vibe moment was misinterpreted: He is the bad guy in that scene.
I agree. The idea of the Legends of Tomorrow, is that there a BUNCH of people responsible for rewriting the timeline that need to be stopped. I think Stein messed up his own timeline, not Barry.
Also, I'm a firm believer that the comic 'Flashpoint ripple' going BACK in time before the change... is dumbest thing I ever read. I hope that never gets mentioned in books or shows again. Barry's mom doesn't die... (which is actually restroing the original timeline, not the Zoom screwed one... but that's a different complaint) and now suddenly the kents don't find Kal-el and Bruce is shot in an alley...
Wow... just... Ugghhhh.... I LOVE a good time travel/Paradox story... but that was just a horrible one.
Also I think Cisco IS going to go villain at this point. His vibe moment was misinterpreted: He is the bad guy in that scene.Didn't they already fulfill that little bit of vision prophecy? When he and Caitlin duked it out while she was being overcome by the Killer Frost persona. He was definitely the good guy in that sequence.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't the same scene. What Cisco vibed had trees in the background. When he stopped her, they were standing on a street with cars and houses in the background.
Phantom,
Thank you for the assist! You too Vid! Yeah that's pretty much what I meant, it's not a matter of how skilled Mick is, as much as he does what he pleases and not with any care or sense of responsibility. So to me, him not so much fight everyone in power armor.
Shadow,
I'm pretty sure you're right but who knows...
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I still say that the most logical thing and the best possible decision for the timeline that they could do... is get rid of Mick. One of my absolute biggest pet peeves in season 1 was the idea that a Time Master... devoted to protecting timelines... would recruit a homicidal killer who's only interest was in killing and destroying things. It was just... insanely stupid. Every time he sets something on fire or shots a guy... 2 Senators and a president are never born. Almost ANYONE else in history would have been a better choice to draft than Mick.
Not to say the rest of the team was much better. Snart and Sara are also entirely too quick to leave a pile of bodies when they leave the room, and Firestorm seems relegated to setting things on fire too... so the whole team sucked for a 'time preserveation' mission. But Mick?? At least the others can be talked to and reasoned with and focused a bit... but Mick is just too chaotic to be a time traveler.
Season 2?? Without a self-proclaimed Time Master on board... it's a lot more about a rag-tag group of people trying to do their best, and I can accept them screwing up a bit more... Still logically should ditch him in either the present or post-apocalyptic wasteland... but they've grown attached.
On the other hand... I really think he's becoming my favorite character in the show right now!!! Doesn't make him a better more responsible time traveler... but he's just... FUN!!!!
Feral,
So FAR anyway. Season isn't over yet.
To be fair, they did get rid of Mick in Season 1. Except the Time Masters stepped in and made him the new Chronos (or was it the old Chronos? I can never tell with time travel). He's mellowed a *little* since then.
Tar,
That's what Feral has been arguing in sense. That Mick as Chronos is doesn't need the team. Or that he should be in charge, not White Canary.
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I'm cool with Mick being a team player. It's just annoying that the writers continue to portray Mick as dumb muscle - a role he's poorly suited for considering they have multiple people on the team with super strength. He's had literal lifetimes worth of combat and technical training during his time as an assassin for the Time Masters. Since rejoining the team all of that was forgotten.
Feral,
Maybe he just figures it was unnecessary since as he said "I like to Burn things."
Drah,
There were two Batmen, yes. But no more than two that I was aware of.
I also remember a Batman International sort of franchise, the only issue I read about it has Bruce Wayne investigating the murder of Batman Tokyo.
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Also, I'm a firm believer that the comic 'Flashpoint ripple' going BACK in time before the change... is dumbest thing I ever read. I hope that never gets mentioned in books or shows again. Barry's mom doesn't die... (which is actually restroing the original timeline, not the Zoom screwed one... but that's a different complaint) and now suddenly the kents don't find Kal-el and Bruce is shot in an alley...
I actually have no problem with that. It emphasizes the 4-dimensional nature of time and unifies it with quantum mechanics. And it may not be so far fetched as you might think. There have been some indications that that certain quantum interactions CAN have effects that precede them. Here's an example. Lets say I do a bunch of particle batches that I do Experiment A and some of them I do a further experiment B. There have been observations that doing Experiment B can cause Experiment A to come out with different results even before Experiment B is applied to them.
If a time travel event can produce ripple effects that precede the event, that essentially means that interventions in time can NOT be reversed to bring back the original timeline, which is why Barry Allen gives up trying to fix the mess he caused. All that can be achieved, is to cause more change.
I also remember a Batman International sort of franchise, the only issue I read about it has Bruce Wayne investigating the murder of Batman Tokyo.Drah,
There were two Batmen, yes. But no more than two that I was aware of.
Ah yeah I remember that now. That's where the first Batwing and Mister Unknown along with Nightrunner spun out.