I am finally up to date on gotham. Strangely enough, I have been bonding with my mother over this show. If you know my mother, you would know this makes little sense. But she is geeking out with me over the show, and that's good- she's been a bit awkward and distant since I got married.
Not sure where all the fish hate is coming from (then again, batman fans aren't known for patience or being accepting of new characters), but it doesn't really matter as the actress behind the character is leaving. A loss, from where I am sitting as she is an amazing actress. here's hoping things pick up again after the break. Loving the great acting in this show in general.
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Meh it was a "holding show," it is a prelude to next week, nowhere as good as some of the others, which after a break, which came after an even longer break, seems a touch disappointing.
And normally I throw my thumbs up at this series.
Ben McKenzie the shows lead, does a cool question and answer though.
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Not sure where all the fish hate is coming from (then again, batman fans aren't known for patience or being accepting of new characters)
She was great at the start of the show. She was where Penguin wanted to be. She was a competent, ruthless villain who used whatever tools she could get her hands on to stay on top.
Then she was deposed. That really should have been the end of it. Or, at the very least, she should have escaped from Gotham cleanly to come back at some future date.
But no.
We get ass pull after ass pull, each character she comes up against having the Idiot Ball spiked directly into their frontal lobe whenever she gets involved.
NOTHING after she gets captured by Dollmaker makes a lick of sense. It is, hands down, the poorest writing in the show.
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My friend sent me this comment he found online in reference to tonight's episode:
"I just watched an amazing show about the origins of a masked vigilante who doesn't kill. It featured a spectacular turf war between rivaling factions of organized crime, a city plagued by corrupt politicians and police officers on the take, and moral ambiguity around every corner. And then after Daredevil I watched Gotham, which had fantastic dialogue like, "I'm telling on you."
I am finally up to date on gotham. Strangely enough, I have been bonding with my mother over this show. If you know my mother, you would know this makes little sense. But she is geeking out with me over the show, and that's good- she's been a bit awkward and distant since I got married.
Not sure where all the fish hate is coming from (then again, batman fans aren't known for patience or being accepting of new characters), but it doesn't really matter as the actress behind the character is leaving. A loss, from where I am sitting as she is an amazing actress. here's hoping things pick up again after the break. Loving the great acting in this show in general.
For once I agree with Rynjin. It's not so much the actress..as it is the complete pointless of the character after being deposed by the Penguin.
Everything with Dollmaker has been completely and utterly stupid. It's clear the showrunners had no clue in general what to do when their original episode order was renewed for a full season, and all of the plotlines suffer from that, but hers suffers the worst.
Although...Fish is probably the best/worst scenery chewer of the bunch, and often her acting/character seems tonally at odds with the rest of the show. Still don't know if that is a good or bad thing, since at times I find it grating, and at other times I think the actress is simply the only one who realizes how ridiculous the show gets at time.
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She is an amazing actress. Her character, however, is horribly written, incredibly dull and completely pointless now that Penguin is coming to his own.
This, to the Nth degree. I love Mrs. Pinkett-Smith. But the writing for her character is terrible. Not to mention, there's 75 years worth of Bat supporting characters to choose from. Why make up someone completely new?
She is an amazing actress. Her character, however, is horribly written, incredibly dull and completely pointless now that Penguin is coming to his own.This, to the Nth degree. I love Mrs. Pinkett-Smith. But the writing for her character is terrible. Not to mention, there's 75 years worth of Bat supporting characters to choose from. Why make up someone completely new?
I dunno...I think for a prequel series, new characters are not a bad thing. Any prequel, even a relatively good one (which Gotham isn't) suffers from telling a story where you know that certain characters will live, or that certain situations can't be solved yet. Fish is probably the only legitimate character on the show whose fate isn't known by the audience.
Incredibly deep voiced guard dude is my new favorite character.
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Of all the characters introduced on Gotham, I was most excited by 'Fish' Mooney. Carmine Falcone and Boss Maroni are destined to fall from their positions, Penguin is destined to rise to power, Jim Gordon is destined to become commissioner, Bruce is destined to become The Bat, etc. All of these people have their ends set in stone, and the only thing in question is how they get there. Since Ms. Mooney is original, she's free from this, and could have done anything, gone anywhere.
So it's a shame she's easily my least favorite character. It was bad enough when she was consistently pulling the wool over Falcone's eyes back in the city, but I can't immediately think of a good reason why she wasn't killed in the hospital basement, any number of times. She's badly written, verging on Villain Sue-levels of author favoritism. She seems to convince people to do what she wants, even though they probably know she's untrustworthy. She's not interesting. They've wasted their Jada Pinkett-Smith.
And now, with the way this last episode ended, it seems likely we won't get the line "Penguins feed on fish!" That feels like a huge miss.
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Of all the characters introduced on Gotham, I was most excited by 'Fish' Mooney. Carmine Falcone and Boss Maroni are destined to fall from their positions, Penguin is destined to rise to power, Jim Gordon is destined to become commissioner, Bruce is destined to become The Bat, etc. All of these people have their ends set in stone, and the only thing in question is how they get there. Since Ms. Mooney is original, she's free from this, and could have done anything, gone anywhere.
Same here. Something new is always more interesting to me than a retreat of stories and characters I've already read about for years and decades (and, in many cases, in multiple incarnations or interpretations).
I remember people online flipping out about the Mandarin fake out in Iron Man 3, and I, quite possibly the only person over 25 in the theatre, who had any friggin clue who the Mandarin was in the comics, thought it was great. It was a shiny gift *to me,* the only person who would be genuinely surprised that the Mandarin *wasn't* exactly who I thought he was going to be.
Similarly, with Gotham, I'm always hoping to see something new and shocking and spitting-in-the-face-of-canon, like Nygma *not* turn out to be a villainous Riddler but an ally to the Bat, or Fish Mooney going on to become the 'power behind the throne' of the Falcone crime family, or something that just pushes that applecart right over and dances in the wreckage.
Instead, I read constant complaints that Gotham isn't *exactly* like whatever stories we read forty years ago, and have seen at least a half-dozen times in TV shows, movies and / or cartoons. What would be the point in that? Yeesh.
The last thing I need to see is a fortieth iteration of 'latest artists version of some hundred year old classic painting, using the exact same colors that everyone else has used.'
My only quibble with Fish is that the character has been poorly written. She's got 'I'm obviously about to betray you' tattooed on her forehead, and *everybody* seems to fall for it, inexplicably.
Same with Cobblepot, 'though, so the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree, in that regard.
Y'know who would make a GREAT new character to develop in this show? Penguin's mom. Carol Kane is a great actress, the character is creepy and bizarre; I'd love to see where some really great writing could take her.
Also
Similarly, with Gotham, I'm always hoping to see something new and shocking and spitting-in-the-face-of-canon, like Nygma *not* turn out to be a villainous Riddler but an ally to the Bat, or Fish Mooney going on to become the 'power behind the throne' of the Falcone crime family, or something that just pushes that applecart right over and dances in the wreckage.
Instead, I read constant complaints that Gotham isn't *exactly* like whatever stories we read forty years ago, and have seen at least a half-dozen times in TV shows, movies and / or cartoons. What would be the point in that? Yeesh.
The last thing I need to see is a fortieth iteration of 'latest artists version of some hundred year old classic painting, using the exact same colors that everyone else has used.'
I feel like the general tenor is less "They are varying from the comics is bad" and more just generally handling the characters bad. Daredevil went with a pretty big deviation from the source material, and it was pulled off amazingly. I don't know if Gotham has really pulled off many major variations.
Off the top of my head, so far the Riddler has been the biggest deviation from comics lore. Making Nygma a forensics expert for the GCPD is a great idea. Giving him a billion lines that wink wink hint he is the riddler isn't. Nor is the really horribly mishandled love interest, which I think is suppose to make us sympathetic but instead is falling flat
She is an amazing actress. Her character, however, is horribly written, incredibly dull and completely pointless now that Penguin is coming to his own.This, to the Nth degree. I love Mrs. Pinkett-Smith. But the writing for her character is terrible. Not to mention, there's 75 years worth of Bat supporting characters to choose from. Why make up someone completely new?
So that you have someone who's story could go anywhere.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Similarly, with Gotham, I'm always hoping to see something new and shocking and spitting-in-the-face-of-canon, like Nygma *not* turn out to be a villainous Riddler but an ally to the Bat, or Fish Mooney going on to become the 'power behind the throne' of the Falcone crime family, or something that just pushes that applecart right over and dances in the wreckage.
Instead, I read constant complaints that Gotham isn't *exactly* like whatever stories we read forty years ago, and have seen at least a half-dozen times in TV shows, movies and / or cartoons. What would be the point in that? Yeesh.
The last thing I need to see is a fortieth iteration of 'latest artists version of some hundred year old classic painting, using the exact same colors that everyone else has used.'
I feel like the general tenor is less "They are varying from the comics is bad" and more just generally handling the characters bad. Daredevil went with a pretty big deviation from the source material, and it was pulled off amazingly. I don't know if Gotham has really pulled off many major variations.
Off the top of my head, so far the Riddler has been the biggest deviation from comics lore. Making Nygma a forensics expert for the GCPD is a great idea. Giving him a billion lines that wink wink hint he is the riddler isn't. Nor is the really horribly mishandled love interest, which I think is suppose to make us sympathetic but instead is falling flat
I'm expecting Nygma's love interest to be what sets him on the path of becoming a villain, especially now that she's dating someone else who seems like a perfectly decent guy from the little we've seen of him. Jealousy ensues, Nygma gets revenge and kills him, and is no longer the harmless quirky lovable CSI guy, but proto-Riddler.
I wouldn't write off the Mandarin out of the MCU just yet... I have some kind of feeling about this one...
Off topic....
I'm expecting Nygma's love interest to be what sets him on the path of becoming a villain, especially now that she's dating someone else who seems like a perfectly decent guy from the little we've seen of him. Jealousy ensues, Nygma gets revenge and kills him, and is no longer the harmless quirky lovable CSI guy, but proto-Riddler.
Similarly, with Gotham, I'm always hoping to see something new and shocking and spitting-in-the-face-of-canon, like Nygma *not* turn out to be a villainous Riddler but an ally to the Bat, or Fish Mooney going on to become the 'power behind the throne' of the Falcone crime family, or something that just pushes that applecart right over and dances in the wreckage.
Instead, I read constant complaints that Gotham isn't *exactly* like whatever stories we read forty years ago, and have seen at least a half-dozen times in TV shows, movies and / or cartoons. What would be the point in that? Yeesh.
The last thing I need to see is a fortieth iteration of 'latest artists version of some hundred year old classic painting, using the exact same colors that everyone else has used.'
I feel like the general tenor is less "They are varying from the comics is bad" and more just generally handling the characters bad. Daredevil went with a pretty big deviation from the source material, and it was pulled off amazingly. I don't know if Gotham has really pulled off many major variations.
Off the top of my head, so far the Riddler has been the biggest deviation from comics lore. Making Nygma a forensics expert for the GCPD is a great idea. Giving him a billion lines that wink wink hint he is the riddler isn't. Nor is the really horribly mishandled love interest, which I think is suppose to make us sympathetic but instead is falling flat
Although as of last episode, he was the cop who gave him the Ogre case, on order from Commissioner Loeb.
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Hmmmm....
Looks like Nygma is well on his way to being the annoying a@!&&$* criminal we all know and love.
Not sure I like the new take on the Dynamic Duo - Bruce and Selina. Who get's to wear the green shorts in this relationship, I wonder? I did like Bruce taking a stand against killing.
I was hoping they'd end the story of the Ogre in this episode. The car and mouse game between Ogre and Gordon/Bullock was interesting. Alas - now it appears they're going the 50 Shades of Idiotic Crap route with Barbara. Maybe she'll suffer years of torment and need psychiatric help because of her time with Ogre. And maybe this will show Detective Gordon that he really does still love her, thus driving a permanent wedge between Gordon and Leslie.
Penguin, dude, just admit to creepy Mommy Dearest that you're a criminal who can outsmart every other criminal. Maybe she'll be proud.
But, hey! At least there was no sign of Fish!!! Huzzah!
Bruce's stand was admirable, but at this stage largely pointless, as evidenced by Selina's response:
Bruce: "You can't ever do that again!"
Selina: "Or what?"
Bruce: "..."
Selina: [other possible spoilery stuff] "If I had to do it again, I would. And I wouldn't have any problem with it."
One principled stand, zero impact.
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Finally....
Also, congratulations Barbara. You have now become the second female character the writers made completely annoying and pointless.
I only say second, because Selina, while very much annoying, isn't totally pointless....yet.
At least Gordon shot that prick the Ogre. I was really worried they were going to try and make him Gordon's nemesis and keep bringing him back over and over and over and....
Bullet to the head kind of precludes that.
Looking forward to the mob war Penguin started. With any luck, he'll grow a spine and shoot Fish.
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Similarly, with Gotham, I'm always hoping to see something new and shocking and spitting-in-the-face-of-canon, like Nygma *not* turn out to be a villainous Riddler but an ally to the Bat, or Fish Mooney going on to become the 'power behind the throne' of the Falcone crime family, or something that just pushes that applecart right over and dances in the wreckage.
I can get behind that Bat wagon, but alas they turned Riddler into another proto psychopath. We already have several of those, ranging from a debase possible Joker to a calculating and pre criminal mastermind Penguin. Killers all.
I really wished they would do something altogether different for Riddler. They could have gone so many directions with him. They could have made him into a wanna be hero, a lesser or failed Batman. They could have kept it simple lengthened his stint as an unwanted sidekick. But no they go the easy route and make him yet another madman. Pfft.
And Barbara, while its a twist, I am not sure if I like where it's going.
Man, the show runners better man up and eat some magic mushrooms to get their mojo back for season 2.
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Man, the show runners better man up and eat some magic mushrooms to get their mojo back for season 2.
Hmmmmm... not sure on this one, as we could end up with a completely different kind of show...
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Gotham is the third show I have seen this season that in it's final episodes has decided to inexplicably make a not very popular (former or current) love interest of the lead turn..evil/evilish.
Man did a bunch of writers attend a workshop or something? This is sort of weirding me out.
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Wow...just when I thought I couldn't dislike Barbara more, we get that scene. Ok, kudos to the writers for not taking the easy path and having her select Leslie as the Ogre's next victim, but wow...you can choose anyone in the world for this guy to kill, and you choose your PARENTS? Those same parents who only showed up for a single scene in a single episode, and have, as far as we know, have done nothing to warrant being nurdered? At least Fish had reasons to have people killed. Why did she choose them?
Good to finally meet Lucius. Bruce needs someone at WE he can trust, and it sounds like Lucius helped his father. It looks like Thomas was going to turn whistleblower and pull back the curtain on WE's illicit dealings. Killing the monster from within. Someone found out, and decided to kill the Waynes before he could spill the beans. One problem I see with that theory...Thomas had to realize that he was walking into a den of vipers. I'm surprised he didn't have some sort of backup plan, just in case the board went after him.
Not sure what Oswald's doing. Ok, I get that he wants Maroni and Falcone to attack each other, but what does he do afterwards? Take out the winner? How can he be assured that he can win?
Nygma's back to annoying again. I love The Riddler, and I thought his inclusion as a CSI was a great choice. I really wanted the relationship between his love interest (it's sad I can't remember her name, but she has no personality) and the officer to be something good for both of them, but Nygma couldn't take it. But, no, he had to be an abusive jerk with a friendly demeanor. Now Nygma's murder is justified. At least they've got his obsessive nature down, including Madame Librarian (which is what I've decided to call her). He's a creepy obsessive stalker, and I think that could be a good place to start for Nygma.
Finally...does it make me a bad person to want to know exactly what that act on stage was going to be? I just want to know what a man, a woman, a pig, and a chainsaw all have to do with one another.
Yeah I am thinking this will be the last season I watch. I'll probably give the next season a couple of shows but while there are good parts...over all I am rapidly loosing interest.
Oswald Cobblepot seems like a less skilled and more homicidal Littlefinger, basically creating Chaos and using that to rise in power. I am not entirely sure that is all that smart really...at this point he has maybe a gang of...two? And while Falcone might have cramped his style, he has yet to actually emerge as a competent power who can survive on his own, without protection from someone more powerful
Cobblepot has pretty much been the best thing about Gotham for me...it's a shame that they really ran out of storyline with him after Fish went down. Last night was the first time it felt like that storyline was on track
and yeah I am with Kretzer. I probably won't be tuning next year...at this point and my friends mostly watch it to make fun of it and complain about all the missed opportunities.
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I don't understand
With this show I just keep shrugging and going "But hey, it's Batman so... just keep watching" but I keep walking away feeling underwhelmed.
Gotham is the third show I have seen this season that in it's final episodes has decided to inexplicably make a not very popular (former or current) love interest of the lead turn..evil/evilish.
Man did a bunch of writers attend a workshop or something? This is sort of weirding me out.
- The execrable Katrina from Sleepy Hollow
- The once somewhat cool, understanding, and supportive Juliette from Grimm
@Mark Hoover That's exactly why I keep watching...its Batman.
In a slightly tangential topic, did everyone see the Batman v Superman trailer. I'm assuming its Batman that says at the end
"Tell me. Do you bleed? You will."
but now I'm thinking it might've been Lex Luthor
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** spoiler omitted **Gotham is the third show I have seen this season that in it's final episodes has decided to inexplicably make a not very popular (former or current) love interest of the lead turn..evil/evilish.
Man did a bunch of writers attend a workshop or something? This is sort of weirding me out.
Exactly! Although the last one on the list...I loved the hell that the character got powers, but hated that they decided those powers = evil.
Well they had established long since that Hexenbiest = Psycho crazy b@*&&.
Exactly! Although the last one on the list...I loved the hell that the character got powers, but hated that they decided those powers = evil.
Me too, me too... she would have been (and maybe might be in the future, if they don't go too gooftastic on us) an awesome, kick-ass member of the team.
/hijack
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Gotham is the third show I have seen this season that in it's final episodes has decided to inexplicably make a not very popular (former or current) love interest of the lead turn..evil/evilish.
Man did a bunch of writers attend a workshop or something? This is sort of weirding me out.
I kind of like the idea of Barbara as a potential villain, since she was doing nothing for me as a supporting character (and the more they veer away from the standard characters I've read about for fifty odd years, the more interesting it is to me). She's *got* to be more interesting as an Ogress-in-training than she was as Gordon's rich ex.
As for the others, if one is Juliette from Grimm, she's just crazy cooler as a possible bad-guy.
Gemma Simmons, from Agents of SHIELD might be a third example of a female supporting character going evil-ish, although she's never been anyone's love interest.
I don't think Simmons is going full villain, at least not yet. Although I thought they were building her up to go with Other Shield during any Civil War event. But her recent reconciliation with Fitz and response to Ward's statement to her make me thing she might be turning a corner back to old Simmons.
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I don't think Simmons is going full villain, at least not yet. Although I thought they were building her up to go with Other Shield during any Civil War event. But her recent reconciliation with Fitz and response to Ward's statement to her make me thing she might be turning a corner back to old Simmons.
Assuming that Agents of SHIELD is going to continue to be a marketing tool for MCU movies, I would expect Simmons to be trending in her current direction so that she can be the voice (on the show) of the upcoming Superhuman Registration Act supporters / faction.
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My thoughts on the season finale....
Not sure I care for the major deviation from comic lore, with Falcone leaving (though they could always bring him back) and Penguin seeming on top of the heap.
I really wish they could have given a more definitive death for Fish. Now there's the chance they could bring her back. Although, I'll admit, I loved it when she put a bullet in Maroni. That dude was starting to get really annoying. But the entire scene was, I thought, well played and well written.
Not sure I care for where they might be going with the whole Thomas Wayne secret. If they make him some kind of secret vigilante, you'll probably be able to hear my scream. Although it was nice to see what I'm guessing is the entrance to The Cave.
I'm torn about the scenes with Nygma. On the one hand, it was cool to see him breakdown and take a further step towards becoming the Riddler. On the other hand, the whole arguing with himself just came off as kind of lame to me - although the bit with him asking himself why he had to leave a clue was a nice touch on Riddler's future pathological relationship with Batman.
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Man I am so glad we got three episodes of the Ogre plotline, and they squeezed all of the gang war into one. Because heaven forbid Gotham make a finale that makes sense...
It's pretty sad how this series took such an abyssal dive in quality on its last 6~8 episodes or so... It's becoming increasingly difficult to go through the bad in order to enjoy the good...
There was also a lot of bad in the original 16 or so episodes. It's just the show got even worse in the latter half.
I am probably done with the show, unless I get bored and my friends tempt me into hate watching it with them.