Gotham

[wicked cool]

loved the episode! I'll be curious to see if we see Victor again. Was pleasantly suprised at the amount of violence. Will be curious to see how Gordons department reacts

[sunbeam]

Aside from Gordon appearing to be indestructible I liked it.

But I have watched every episode so far. I think a problem with this series is the fact that Batman isn't really in it.

Without him and the crew from Arkham kicking it up, this is just a far fetched police show.

The idea is interesting, and the characters are interesting. But I'd say Bruce is about a decade away from being Batman. No way this show lasts that long.

What happens? Do we get Mr. Freeze, Riddler, and the rest going around Gotham committing crimes with the GCPD unable to get a handle on things?

If I were doing this show, I think I would skip five years ahead for season two, then in season three skip five more and have the Dark Knight emerge. They might possibly be able to keep it going for two years without Batman.

Come to think of it, I might just skip ten years for season two, and have that be Batman:Year One.

I really think this would be a cool show with all the personalities, if Batman was actually in the show now. He might be the center of the whole thing (the glue that attracts and holds all the nutcases together), but it would be an interesting take if he were in the show, and we still had a lot of focus on the GCPD characters, and especially the villains.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

No way. I don't want Batman on this show. I'm having way too much fun looking at young penguin manipulate everyone. I love Gordon and his chaotic good sometimes neutral partner. I was hoping he would have decisively won the showdown at the police station against Victor thus emerging as a hero to the other cops but once again the show threw a curved ball and had Gordon crawl on his belly in a parking lot to escape the bad guys.

This show is amazing. I repeat: this show is amazing.

[Hama]

They could make time skips for the show.

Like season 2 is 5 years later, Gordon has grown the moustache, has a baby girl of 4. Is a Captain. Bruce is in training, early crime fighting, fumbles, works things out. Could culminate in a story a-la Arkham:Origins for the season finale.

Season 3, 5 years after season 1, or even 10. Batman is established, so is Robin, then we get Nightwing and second robin, and batgirl.

That would work for me.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

this is not a show about Batman

cue to Agents of SHIELD not being a show about superheroes

[Damon Griffin]

Batman should never appear on the show.

I think someone else may have said this already (it could have been on a different messageboard) but the show should run as long as it runs, with Bruce gradually learning about fighting, forensics, etc. as a B plot; the final scene of the last episode should show a bat flying in through Bruce's window, while Bruce gets a look of "That's it!" on his face.

[thejeff]

Damon Griffin wrote:

Batman should never appear on the show.

I think someone else may have said this already (it could have been on a different messageboard) but the show should run as long as it runs, with Bruce gradually learning about fighting, forensics, etc. as a B plot; the final scene of the last episode should show a bat flying in through Bruce's window, while Bruce gets a look of "That's it!" on his face.

Well, if it wants to follow the standard Batman origin, Bruce should eventually leave town for years and travel the world becoming the best at everything. All of which should be off camera, since the show's called Gotham.

[Damon Griffin]

thejeff wrote:

Well, if it wants to follow the standard Batman origin, Bruce should eventually leave town for years and travel the world becoming the best at everything. All of which should be off camera, since the show's called Gotham.

The background you describe happens to be the one I subscribe to, but it's not the only one, nor explicity spelled out in the original version. Although it certainly makes sense, it isn't vital to Batman's core identity that he leave Gotham and travel the world, only that he train to be excellent in the skills he needs. He's still "absent" from Gotham in the sense that he's a kid, largely sequestered in the Manor, with no power to affect things.

[sunbeam]

If Batman doesn't work in to this show, I don't get the appeal of the whole thing.

The demographic of people that watch Law and Order and these other procedural shows is probably not the demo watching Gotham.

If I am representative of the target audience, we are going to get real bored of this procedural stuff pretty quickly.

What is this show without Batman? Gritty violence and drama with a cartoonish twist? How long is anyone going to follow a Nygma who never riddles? A Penguin without trick umbrellas?

Maybe comics and Batman give different things to different people. But run of the mill crime bosses like we have seen so far (Maroni, Falcone, Mooney) don't pay the rent in Gotham. Nor do the hitmen types we have seen so far (whoever the black guy was, Victor Szasz, any of the others). Those just aren't the kind of antagonists I personally am interested in. When I was a kid I collected Spider-Man, and I hated, just hated issues with nothing but the Kingpin, Hammerhead, or any of the other "mundanes."

Without the villains going over the top, without Batman and his collection of stuff, you've got just another cop show. Maybe the sensibilities are a little more four-color, but in the end it is just guys with badges and guns running around a generic city.

I think the Nerd audience is going to get bored, and the kinds of folks that normally watch that kind of show will never tune in.

Maybe I'm wrong, what keeps me watching right now is seeing what happens with Penguin, what Nygma does, the odd name drop, and seeing who else shows up. I'm quite positive I'm not going to keep that up for four or five years or whatever would satisfy the makers of this show. I kind of doubt I'll keep it up a whole season.

In retrospect this past episode was a little disappointing. For god's sake, we had a "retcon" with Penguin and Falcone.

Then there is the fact that the Mayor now knows Gordon is willing and wants to arrest him. That has to be a little awkward. Even without killing him, there are all kinds of ways to get a guy like Gordon drummed off the force, since as presented every politician in Gotham is owned by someone. Who exactly would stick their neck out, or go out of their way to defend Gordon or pull strings if he was stuck with a sexual harassment charge or something and fired? It might be ludicrous to anyone that knows Gordon, but you can manufacture and spin anything if you want, and the papers and media will eat what is in front of them.

I kind of think this show is overusing Penguin so far. Even with the way they are using him, it would be a stretch if he could get Gordon out of something like that.

[Grey Lensman]

I think an appearance of Batman would work great for the final episode/arc of the series. If done right, it would be a great piece to close out with.

[wicked cool]

I expect Bruce to have a more active role and maybe he starts some training (More of a clark kent in smallville).Hes going to have to leave the mansion at some point.

Going to disagree on Penguin/Victor/Etc. The mob angle right now is what is carrying this show. No doubt the penguin grows and the Riddler is introduced.There are so many cool villians that can be introduced and im hoping Gordon grows into something similiar to the Nolan movies.

[Misroi]

@sunbeam: I think that getting rid of Gordon will be problematic for the crime families. The original plan was that whoever follows up on the Wayne murders finds Mario Pepper, who gets framed for the killings. The press celebrates the quick resolution to the highest-profile murders in Gotham for decades, and the cops responsible get accolades and face time. They didn't count on the One Honest Cop in Gotham to get assigned to the case. So, when the evidence against Pepper suddenly doesn't hold up, he starts digging. Eventually, he gets too close, and they try to kill him. They fail. He goes to the Don, and the Don refuses to kill him as well.

Where do they go from there? He's protected by Falcone. A sexual harassment charge would have to be really strong, and a step backwards from the crime he was recently accused of and found innocent of committing. So, really, what's the next step?

I was almost ready to give up on this show until "Penguin's Umbrella" showed us why Don Falcone was acting so oblivious to Fish's scheming - it was all an act, hatched between himself and Cobblepot. That actor is still the reason to watch the show, but the rest of the cast is slowly winning me over. I've actually done a 180 on Fish's character - when the series started, I was mostly interested in her, as her character was an unknown to the Bat-myth. She was free from destiny, and she could go anywhere. Now, though, I'm tired of listening to Jada deliver her lines so ham-fistedly that it violates kosher law. The sooner she joins Niko in the grave, the better. Bullock is still entertaining to watch, and he always gets the best lines in the show.

Still, it's no Agents of SHIELD.

[Aberzombie]

I wouldn't mind seeing them pull more from the comics - in particular, I'd love to see the Reaper show up. He was a pre-Batman vigilante, just way more violent and murderous. He might make a really good recurring character.

[Set]

Loving this show, so far, and the longer it takes before we see Batman, the better. It's a great look at his surrounding cast and setting and mythos.

[Rynjin]

I want to see Killer Croc (one of my favorite Batman villains mostly because crocodiles are cool and the Arkham games) while he's still "Violent dude with an odd deformity" instead of "HOLY S%#* IT'S A CROCODILE MONSTER AAAAAAAAA".

[Arnwyn]

People expecting to see an actual Batman on TV in the near (or even semi-near) future are going to be disappointed.

[Aberzombie]

Very interesting episode last night...

Spoiler:

I liked the look into the origin of Black Mask. Looks like daddy was a few bricks shy of a load as well. Not sure if I agree with the direction it looks like they are taking with Bruce Wayne - i.e. Alfred teaching him to fight. But if they use that as a segue into "Hey Alfred, thanks for teaching me everything you know, but now I have to travel the world learning from more people", it could be pretty cool.

Donal Logue continues to impress me as Bullock. He and Robin Taylor Lord as Penguin are, for me, the two best parts of the show.

[Tinkergoth]

Totally agree on the Penguin and Bullock Aberzombie, they're the best.

I kind of like the idea of Alfred teaching Bruce to fight while he's young. After all, it's years before he'll be able to go looking for trouble around the world anyway, and I figure he probably knew some basics before he went off.

Loved the introduction of Black Mask, but I wonder, did anyone else notice the sneaky little namedrop intro for another villain?

Villain Cameo:

Took a while for this one to hit me, I'd actually finished watching the episode and was in the middle of doing the dishes when I finally caught up. The kid who bullies Bruce is named Tommy Elliot. Which, unless his parents have saddled him with a nickname as his full name, will be short for Thomas Elliot. In the comics, Bruce and Tommy were childhood friends, and Tommy taught Bruce to think like his opponents when they were playing a boardgame, but after a series of events that led to him resenting the Wayne family and getting remanded into a psychiatric facility, he would show up again years later as a master surgeon and, secretly, the villain Hush.

Obviously it's not going to be a plot point in the series for a long time, if ever, since he has to be an adult first, but I liked the fact that he's obviously around.

Have to say as well, I loved the dialogue after Bruce beat the crap out of Tommy using his father's watch as a makeshift knuckleduster. This may not be 100% accurate, since I watched it last night:

"A point well made Master Bruce"
"He tried to kill me!"
"Yes, he did. Just you remember that the next time you see him. And remember, I let him try." *Hands Bruce a clothe wrap his knuckles after making it look like he's going to offer it to Tommy*
"Now, what would you like for dinner?"
"Pizza"
"Pizza! An excellent choice young master!"

Cold blooded man, cold blooded.

[Misroi]

Tinkergoth:

Yep, I noticed Tommy Elliot as well. Hopefully, they'll show a reconciliation between Bruce and Tommy, leading towards the enmity that will raise its head years later.

I think that the point of the show is to show the father figures Bruce looked up to during this formative time for the Bat. Jim Gordon is the crusader and the detective. Alfred is the dark side, the iron fist in the velvet glove. He doesn't know how to raise a boy to become a man, but he knows how to mold a man into a soldier. Maybe that's why Batman keeps taking on Robins - he remembers all too well what it was like, and he wants to be there for them like Alfred was for him.

[thejeff]

Misroi wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

I think that the point of the show is to show the father figures Bruce looked up to during this formative time for the Bat. Jim Gordon is the crusader and the detective. Alfred is the dark side, the iron fist in the velvet glove. He doesn't know how to raise a boy to become a man, but he knows how to mold a man into a soldier. Maybe that's why Batman keeps taking on Robins - he remembers all too well what it was like, and he wants to be there for them like Alfred was for him.

Which is kind of funny, because that's a complete inversion of the role Alfred plays with the various Robins.

I don't think Alfred in the comics has ever been portrayed as the dark side, the iron fist in the velvet glove, who doesn't know how to raise a boy to become a man, but he knows how to mold a man into a soldier.

He's been the humanity to mellow Batman's coldness.

[Arnwyn]

Last couple of episodes were pretty good.

Barbara is complete idiot, though.

[Misroi]

I totally agree, thejeff, but that seems to be the Alfred we've got here. That might be his arc - he starts by teaching Bruce all the stuff that he learned in the British army (do we know if he's ex-SAS or not?), and at some point he realizes that this was a bad idea. Now he feels responsible for screwing up Bruce even more than he was already.

Only time will tell where we're going with this. And, hey, it's already immeasurably better than Balloon Man.

[Tinkergoth]

Misroi wrote:

I totally agree, thejeff, but that seems to be the Alfred we've got here. That might be his arc - he starts by teaching Bruce all the stuff that he learned in the British army (do we know if he's ex-SAS or not?), and at some point he realizes that this was a bad idea. Now he feels responsible for screwing up Bruce even more than he was already.

Only time will tell where we're going with this. And, hey, it's already immeasurably better than Balloon Man.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they've said he's ex military somewhere (can't remember if it said SAS or not). I like the idea of him as Bruce's mentor, and certainly could see it being a case of him softening as he realises that Bruce doesn't just need to learn how to fight. Honestly I felt like there might have been a little of that in Michael Caine's portrayal of Alfred, mostly from the second film when he was talking about his time as a military man, and telling stories about burning down a jungle to stop one man.

Arnwyn wrote:

Last couple of episodes were pretty good.

Barbara is complete idiot, though.

Agreed, she's a frustrating character.

What the hell Barbara?:

"Okay, I've been told to get out of town because things here are going to hell and I'm the most likely target if they really want to hurt Jim... I know, I'll just go see the mob boss who's hunting him!"

[GentleGiant]

My biggest hang-up is Jim and Barbara. I mean, there's like zero chemistry among them, no matter how much they say they love each other. Zero, zilch, nada, zip.
Penguin is good, although he annoys the hell out of me. As in, Robin Lord Taylor plays the character really good, but I just can't stand his character (not from a Batman "historical" perspective, just the whole sleaze ball thing going on really bugs me). ;-)

[GM Xabulba]

Tinkergoth wrote:

Misroi wrote:

I totally agree, thejeff, but that seems to be the Alfred we've got here. That might be his arc - he starts by teaching Bruce all the stuff that he learned in the British army (do we know if he's ex-SAS or not?), and at some point he realizes that this was a bad idea. Now he feels responsible for screwing up Bruce even more than he was already.

Only time will tell where we're going with this. And, hey, it's already immeasurably better than Balloon Man.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they've said he's ex military somewhere (can't remember if it said SAS or not). I like the idea of him as Bruce's mentor, and certainly could see it being a case of him softening as he realises that Bruce doesn't just need to learn how to fight. Honestly I felt like there might have been a little of that in Michael Caine's portrayal of Alfred, mostly from the second film when he was talking about his time as a military man, and telling stories about burning down a jungle to stop one man.

Arnwyn wrote:

Last couple of episodes were pretty good.

Barbara is complete idiot, though.

Agreed, she's a frustrating character.

** spoiler omitted **

Barbara's entire purpose is to get kidnaped and used to get to Gordon, in that capacity she is doing great.

[Hama]

We all know that the two don't stay married anyway. And it looks that the police captain is beginning to like him, a lot.

[Carl Hanson]

About that precinct captain:

She is this continuity's Sarah Essen, a detective that Gordon has an affair with in Frank Miller's Year One. That affair creates (along with the pressures of his job) the initial conflict in Jim's marriage that eventually culminates in his divorce from Barbara. She then reappears in Miller's The Dark Knight Returns as retired Gordon's current wife. Do not be surprised if Gotham's story arc follows a similar line.

[Tinkergoth]

I get that Jim and Barbara won't be together forever, and that the main purpose her character has been given is to be a weakness for him, but damn it, did they have to write her as a total idiot?

You know what would have still worked, but not made her seem infuriatingly stupid? Putting it in spoilers just in case people still aren't caught up...

Another way of running the same scenario:

Instead of having Barbara go to Falcone in the hopes of pleading for Gordon's life, have some of Falcone's men stop the bus or something and pick her up and take her to him. We're talking about Carmine Falcone, premier crime boss of Gotham City, I figure it's pretty plausible that he'd have enough eyes and ears on the street to get a fair idea of what's going on. Maybe he doesn't hear quick enough to catch Gordon, but he finds out which bus Barbara is on and sends people after it.

Bam. Barbara is still caught, still usable as leverage, but doesn't appear to have the mental capacity of a hamster anymore.

[baron arem heshvaun]

It's about to start, I guess this is the Harvey Dent episode.

[baron arem heshvaun]

And just finished the episode.

I called that last scene weeks ago!

[MMCJawa]

Looking forward to next week. Looks like Bruce Wayne actually gets to be part of the A plot for a change (although they actually did a good job this week with his character as well).

[Rynjin]

I enjoyed all of Bruce's scenes this week, more so than the main plot and Gordon's mopey-ness.

Especially the bit with him and Alfred boxing and having fun.

[Tinkergoth]

I really enjoyed the intro of Dent. I like that they're going with the idea of him being unstable prior to the events that are going to make him into the men he becomes later on.

Nice use of light in his scenes too. Good foreshadowing.

As for that final scene, one of the guys at work is going to be so happy when I see him tomorrow. That's all he's been talking about since the series started.

[baron arem heshvaun]

Awesome opening, probably the best so far for Gotham, the series is definitely getting better.

I love how the scenes were cut.

The dining room scene was great, I love Don Carmine Falcone in this series.

To my surprise I am enjoying the interaction between Bruce and Selina.

And the 'return' of Poison Ivy.

Alfred, like a boss.

All roads continue to lead to Arkham.

Question.

Does Gordon have to have his a$s handed to him every other episode?

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Alfred: +15 to diplomacy, +24 with ladies :)

[Rynjin]

Alfred Liam Neeson-ing his way through this episode was pretty great.

[Tinkergoth]

Argh, I'm going to have to wait until tomorrow to watch this. Thanks to a real estate inspection tomorrow, tonight is going to be taken up with vacuuming, mopping and cleaning the kitchen and bathroom... Still, at least I know that it's apparently an episode worth the wait.

[MMCJawa]

Was the main assassin suppose to be someone from the comics?

[Hama]

Copperhead maybe? She seems...limber.

[Rynjin]

Nameless League of Assassins assassin #2907287 probably.

[JoelF847]

baron arem heshvaun wrote:

Question.

Does Gordon have to have his a$s handed to him every other episode?

I wondered why Alfred was way more bad ass than Gordon. He could have taken down all of the assassins it seemed, while Gordon got his ass kicked.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

JoelF847 wrote:

baron arem heshvaun wrote:

Question.

Does Gordon have to have his a$s handed to him every other episode?

I wondered why Alfred was way more bad ass than Gordon. He could have taken down all of the assassins it seemed, while Gordon got his ass kicked.

Yes, Alfred is more bad ass than Gordon (currently). According to the show's website:

Alfred Pennyworth is a tough-as-nails ex-marine from East London who has loyally served the Waynes. Now, in the wake of their tragic deaths, he’s fiercely protective of the young Bruce Wayne.

So my take on him:

fighter levels with profession: soldier, profession: butler, catch off-guard, exotic weapon proficiency: firearms, (oops forgot that it's a martial proficiency in modern times...) amateur gunslinger (deadeye), weapon focus: pistol, weapon specialization: pistol, improved unarmed strike, skill focus: intimidate, skill focus: diplomacy

traits:
Trustworthy: People find it easy to put their faith in you. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Bluff checks made to fool someone. You also gain a +1 trait bonus on Diplomacy checks, and Diplomacy is always a class skill for you.
Larger Than Life: You wield firearms with truly terrifying menace. When you use the Intimidate skill on a creature while wielding a firearm, you are considered one size category larger than your actual size.

[John Kretzer]

baron arem heshvaun wrote:

Question.

Does Gordon have to have his a$s handed to him every other episode?

Um...yes. That is what the show is about. Sure he might get a few minor victories here and there...but ultimately he is going to fail. If he was successful there would be no need for Batman after all.

[Rynjin]

John Kretzer wrote:

baron arem heshvaun wrote:

Question.

Does Gordon have to have his a$s handed to him every other episode?

Um...yes. That is what the show is about. Sure he might get a few minor victories here and there...but ultimately he is going to fail. If he was successful there would be no need for Batman after all.

This isn't about "ultimately failing" it's about Jim Gordon, ex-soldier and trained cop, being knocked out and beaten up by every thug in Gotham.

You know what strains my disbelief more than anything in this show?

That Jim is still alive, since he seems to be made of papier mache.

[Dal Selpher]

The show is also inconsistent with how they portray Jim as a combatant. He gets his face caved in one episode, then the next he gets abducted, wakes up in an abandoned office building and single-handedly fights off four assailants and then their sword wielding maniac of a boss. Then he gets beat to crap again the following episode. Meh.

[Rosgakori]

I think that assasin chick was definetly Copperhead. Her movements and way of killing or knocking out people was in the vein of Copperhead.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

so did my pvr skip a beat or was there no show tonight?

[Tinkergoth]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

so did my pvr skip a beat or was there no show tonight?

Last week's episode was the mid-season finale. It resumes in January I believe.

[Damon Griffin]

TV Guide (magazine) had listed a new episode for tonight, mentioning Gordon at Arkham, but my DVR's on-screen menu listed "Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer."

Possibly the network changed the schedule after the magazine went to print. Something similar happened with tonight's "Scorpion" on CBS: TV Guide listed a new episode at 9:00 Eastern, but instead there was a rerun at 10:00.

Personally, I think this is evidence of our timeline having been altered by persons from the future. Presumably some major tragedy (present or future) was averted within a few days after the magazine went to print, with the ripple effects causing tonight's TV network schedules to change.

[baron arem heshvaun]

Mid season premier starts tonight.

Episode, "Rogues Gallery."

Arkham.

Debut of Dr. Leslie Thompkins, also known as "Batman's Shrink" (coincidentally the actress I would cast as the Pathfinder Iconic Cleric Kyra).

I am betting its three episodes she appears in before they sleep together in the fourth they both are in.

Hope its a good episode.