Tsuto's killing me... and I'm the GM!?!

[Craig1234]

Folks, preparing to run my group through Runelords and, as a new GM, have been trying to figure out where all the stats and things for the NPCs come from (I've found figuring it out is really a great way to understand the rules). Anyway, after spending a couple hours trying to figure out Tsuto's stats in a variety of books, I'm left with one I can't see the math behind (fortunately, I've been able to figure out all the others). His CMD is 20, and every time I try to figure it out I get 18. I'm not sure where the discrepancy is, here's what I see:

10 base
BAB +2
STR +1
DEX +3
WIS +2 (because he's a monk)

That equals 18, where are the other 2 coming from?

Thanks.

[BigNorseWolf]

Monks use their full BAB for cmd ?

[Craig1234]

not seen anything to suggest that they don't.

[Kobold Catgirl]

I'm pretty sure the BAB increase only applies to Flurry.

The PRD wrote:

For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

[Craig1234]

well, in this case his BAB is +2 anyway. What I don't understand is how the author's came up with a CMD of 20? My calculations put it at 18, and if his BAB doesn't count, then it's only 16, which is even further from the published value.

I'm also getting quite confused with Flurry of Blows. Tsuto is monk 2, and according to the table, his attack bonus at level 2 is +0/+0. Presuming that the normal attack bonus math applies and the +0/+0 is a modifier to that, I get BAB+2 plus DEX+3 plus Size +0 plus the modifier +0/+0 = +5; and if the -2 penalty for two handed attack applies, then it would be +3; but the book says +4/+4 - where did that number come from?

I'm starting to think I'm going to cut his HP in half so my PCs can just chew him up, lol.

Unfortunately, one of my players rolled up a monk, so I really do need to understand how the flurry of blows works (as I'm pretty sure I'll have to teach it to him).

Also, the description talks about getting extra attacks at various levels, but the table doesn't bear that out. Instead it adds extra attacks earlier and more and more of them so it looks like by level 20 the monk gets 7 attacks, and with no indication of what they each are...

Please help, I'm getting so confused on this part.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Don't despair! You're doing fine so far. These rules are tricky.

This'd be easier if I had the Pathfinder version of Tsuto. Or any version of Tsuto.

Flurry of Blows is fairly simple: It's basically two-weapon fighting, except your Base Attack Bonus improves. Note the bonus listed in the table for Flurry already includes BAB.

I would recommend against making Tsuto an easy kill. Even if you get his rules wrong, the players won't notice, and they'll still have fun.

What might be confusing you is the fact that the monk gains an increase at sixth and an increase at eighth.

There is a separate reason for each.

The sixth level one is the normal BAB one—in Flurry, your Base Attack Bonus is treated as equal to your level. So, at a +6 BAB, you gain another attack with a -5 penalty.

The eighth level one, on the other hand, is the equivalent of a feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. This feat gives an extra attack at a -5 penalty, but it requires +6 BAB. It is therefore granted at eighth level, because that's when the monk actually gains +6 BAB for real.

As such, while the fighter only gains one extra attack per +6 he's got (so, at 20th level, it's +20/+15/+9/+3), the monk gains that, and also Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. It's a total of 7 attacks.

Does this make sense?

[Kobold Catgirl]

Craig, I looked it up.

Here are Tsuto's stats. As you can see, the CMD is listed as 17 now (in this version, he has a +1 BAB, 17 Dex, 12 Strength, and Dodge). So you did everything right—some designer just did something wrong. ;D

EDIT: Wait...with his +2 Wisdom, that should be an 18. Huh.

[Lone_Wolf]

So I checked in HeroLab to see what it lists for Tsuto to see if I could help you out. Here is what I found:

CMD 20
Base (16) = 10 + 2 (BAB) + 1 (Str) +3 (Dex)
AC Bonuses (4) = 1 (deflection) + 1 (dodge) + 2 (untyped bonus)

So, I think you are calculating it correctly. I'm not sure where that +2 "untyped" bonus comes from; seems to me like thats the way the HeroLab programmers "forced" Tsuto to end up at the published CMD.

But I don't know for sure. Sorry I couldn't be more help.

[Craig1234]

Hmm, in the AP (the anniversary edition one), Tsuto is Monk 2/ Rogue 2, the online reference is Monk 2 / Rogue 1 - would that explain the difference in the CMD?

I was only joking about lowering Tsuto's hit points as I'm reaching the point where I really want to watch him die a horrible death, lol. Maybe I'll turn him into a newt instead, haha.

Anyway, in reference to the explanations on flurry of blows, I'm still totally confused there - I think I'm just not understanding what it is in general, and then drawing bad conclusions around it. Could you explain how flurry of blows works for a monk regardless of other concerns. If we focus the discussion on just that, I think I'll have a better chance of getting it.

Thanks,

[Latrecis]

I think I may have figured it out and it was easier having half the work done for me in posts above.

First let's tackle Tsuto's flurry. I'm not saying the rules are clear this is how it works, but this matches the math. My AE version lists his attacks as: unarmed strike +5 (1d6+1) or flurry of blows +4/+4 (1d6+1)

Unarmed strike: +1 BAB for Monk 2, +1 BAB for Rogue 2, +3 for Dex from Weapon finesse = +5

Flurry of Blows: +2 BAB for Monk 2 (for flurry a Monk's level = BAB,) +1 BAB for Rogue 2, +3 for Dex from Weapons Finess, -2 for two weapon fighting = +4/+4. (The rules are not clear that the rogue BAB stacks with the Monk level = BAB, but it's how multiclassing normally functions and makes the math work.)

And here's a take on the CMD

Base 10 + 1 BAB for Monk 2, +1 BAB for Rogue 2, +1 for Str, +3 for Dex, +1 for Dodge feat, +1 for Deflection (ring of protection), +2 for Monk Wisdom class feature = 20

Here's the quote from p. 199 of the Core Rulebook.
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Great job (I forgot the ring), but one problem: I don't think he's a second level rogue.

As for Flurry: It's basically a bunch of bonus feats. You'd get the exact same benefit from a fighter getting the Two-Weapon Fighting feat chain.

Remember, additional attacks are BAB -5. But you can't have negative BAB. So, when you reach BAB +6, you gain a second attack with BAB +1. That's half the puzzle.

Here's how the fighter would get it. This is basically how the monk is accomplishing his goals, except simpler thanks to it all being feats:

Level One: Two Weapon Fighting (+1 attack, total of 2 attacks)
Level Six: Two Weapon Fighting and +6 BAB (+1 TWF, +1 from BAB, total of 3 attacks)
Level Eight: TWF and +8 BAB, fighter takes Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (+1 TWF, +1 from BAB, +1 from Improved Two-Weapon Fighting)

[Broken Prince]

OP just said he is a Monk 2 Rogue 2 in the Anniversary edition which he is running so I think that explains it.

[Craig1234]

OK, starting to make progress now. I understand Tsuto's CMD, basically, I just missed the sentence about adding the dodge and deflection bonuses to it.

That brings us back to flurry of blows (in general, not necessarily Tsuto's). I think I'm making progress there too, but still haven't got it. I understand that its the result of occasionally adding extra attacks due to increases in BAB and sometimes due to hitting level requirements for flurry of blows itself. However, after writing down what is supposed to happen from each description, and copying over the BAB per level into my own table, my calculations did not match up (nor even when extra attacks get added). For the first 5 levels of the table, I was right on - but I did not add an attack at level 6 because, though the monk level causes his BAB to be +6 in this case, it wasn't a "real" BAB. Once I saw in the table that it was added, the number didn't make sense to me at -1, since if its using the monk level +6 to get the extra attack, why is the -5 taken from the "real" BAB of +4, which isn't high enough to get the extra attack in the first place. Then I started seeing the BAB get listed as multiples. If I understand correctly, the multiples are the result of the "real" BAB hitting the extra attack zones (one number through +5, then +6/+1 when you'd get another attack, then finally +11/+6/+1 when you'd get the third attack from BAB).

I'm still missing something in how this all comes together, I'd love to know what.

Thanks again for all the help.

[Are]

Craig1234 wrote:

For the first 5 levels of the table, I was right on - but I did not add an attack at level 6 because, though the monk level causes his BAB to be +6 in this case, it wasn't a "real" BAB. Once I saw in the table that it was added, the number didn't make sense to me at -1, since if its using the monk level +6 to get the extra attack, why is the -5 taken from the "real" BAB of +4, which isn't high enough to get the extra attack in the first place.

The -5 isn't taken from the "real" BAB. The reason it ends up at -1 rather than +1 (and the two initial attacks end up at +4 instead of +6) is because you also apply the -2 penalty for two-weapon fighting.

When flurrying, you do two things at once:
- you apply the rules for two-weapon fighting (getting an extra attack at full BAB, with additional attacks later on to mimick the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feats, but suffering a -2 penalty to all attacks)
- and you use the Monk level as BAB instead of the normal Monk BAB.

Combined, those two things mean you get a result as given in the flurry of blows column, where all of the maths involved has already been done.

Let me take a few examples:

At level 1, your BAB when flurrying is 1. With the second attack and penalty for TWF, the result is two attacks, both at -1 (BAB +1 -2).

At level 5, your BAB when flurrying is 5. With the second attack and penalty for TWF, the result is two attacks, both at +3 (BAB +5 -2).

At level 6, your BAB when flurrying is 6, which grants an additional attack for having a high BAB. The first two attacks are now at +4 (BAB +6 -2), and the third attack is 5 lower, for a total of -1 (BAB +6 -5 -2).

At level 8, your BAB when flurrying is 8. At this level, the monk also gets another additional attack, representing the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat. The result is a total of four attacks; two at +6 (BAB +8 -2), and two at +1 (BAB +8 -5 -2).

[Edit: For Tsuto's flurry specifically: When flurrying, he has a BAB of +3 (2 for his monk levels, plus 1 for his rogue levels). Since he has Weapon Finesse, he adds DEX to attacks instead of STR. The result is two attacks at +4 (BAB +3 -2 TWF +3 DEX).]

[Craig1234]

Ah, I think I see where I went wrong, I was doing the -2 to attacks, but when adding the new attack, that one I did the -5, but not it's -2. So essentially when calculating 3 attacks i did -2/-2/-5 rather than -2/-2/(-5-2)=-7

I'll have to retry figuring out the table this way - I think it should work out now (or at least be closer, lol).

Also, is flurry based solely on BAB or does it also use the STR(DEX) and size modifiers as any other attack bonus would. In other words, if my monk were a half-orc and large, would I add +1 for size to all the attack bonuses in the chart? Or would it change if the base stat for strength increased enough for the modifier to go up 1 higher? I see that damage changes based on size, but don't see anything about the attack bonus.

[Are]

Craig1234 wrote:

Also, is flurry based solely on BAB or does it also use the STR(DEX) and size modifiers as any other attack bonus would. In other words, if my monk were a half-orc and large, would I add +1 for size to all the attack bonuses in the chart? Or would it change if the base stat for strength increased enough for the modifier to go up 1 higher? I see that damage changes based on size, but don't see anything about the attack bonus.

You add STR/DEX and size bonuses/penalties as normal; the table only provides the base values.

Large size gives a -1 size penalty to attacks, by the way, not a +1 bonus (Small size gives a +1 bonus).

[Craig1234]

oops, been looking at CMD so much I forgot it was reversed from attack, lol.