I've tried multiple times to revise counterspells for my home setting and failed miserably; I'd like to see it far more frequently, but as many of my players and folks online comment, "The best counterspell is damage."
I was looking through my SWSE books, and noticed a particular force power (negate energy & rebuke, for those familiar with the system) which allowed you to counter another. The following is derived from this particular idea, as well as block/deflect and defenses from SWSE and the way attacks of opportunity and CMD/CMB work in Pathfinder.
Basics
Improved Counterspell This feat allows multiple attempts (like combat reflexes) to counterspell. You can attempt 1 per round without it.
Counterspell check 1d20 + ½ caster level + primary casting stat + misc
Counterspell Defense 10 + ½ caster level + primary casting stat + misc
Order of Operations
1. Opponent casts spell.
2. Attempt to identify spell as normal. If successful, move on to 3.
3. The would-be counterspeller rolls a Counterspell check vs Counterspell Defense. If successful, move on to 4.
4. The counterspeller expends appropriate spell as normal or dispel check as normal with dispel magic and variations of.
So far, this is the most basic framework I could come up with for it. I'd appreciate honest criticism or comments.
I did a quick search on what might need changed to function with these rules. I wasn't very surprised to find there is very little in the way of material related to counterspells.
Associated School: Abjuration.
Replacement Powers: The following school powers replace the protective ward power and the energy absorption power of the abjuration school.
Disruption (Su): At 1st level, you gain the ability to disrupt spellcasting with a touch. As a melee touch attack, you can place a disruptive field around the target. While the field is in place, the target must make a concentration check to cast any spell or to use a spell-like ability in addition to any other required concentration checks. The DC of this check is equal to 15 + twice the spell’s level. If the check is failed, the target’s spell is wasted. This field lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum 1). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
Counterspell Mastery (Su): At 6th level, you gain Improved Counterspell as a bonus feat. You may attempt to counterspell an opponent’s spell once per day by expending a spell of your choice at least one level higher than the spell being countered. You can use this ability once per day at 6th level, plus one additional time per day for every 4 levels beyond 6th.
Mythic
- Improved Counterspell (Mythic) Unchanged.
- Flexible Counterspell (Su) Action remains immediate; Improved Counterspell modifies this.
- Spellbane Counterstrike (Su) Unchanged.
- Spell Sieve (Sp) Unchanged.
I was originally going to work solely within the parameters established by the counterspell mechanics already present in 3.x-Pathfinder. However, they rather suck (in my opinion). I'm giving serious consideration to the following new parameters:
New Parameters (Under Consideration)
1 You can counter a spell with the spell as normal using the CS check & Defense automatically if using the same spell and the check is successful.
2 You can counter a spell with the spell using dispel magic/greater dispel magic with a successful CS check at a -4 penalty. Ignore current counterspell mechanics in the spells. Penalty subject to change, i.e. WIP.
3 Nat 20 on CS check: spell energy isn't expended. Consider confirmation roll.
4 Normal: You may make 1 CS attempt per round and may not make a counterspell attempt while flat-footed.
5 Improved Counterspell feat: You may make a number of additional counterspell attempts per round equal to 1 + 1 for every 5 caster levels beyond 1st (functions as a sort of magical BAB). You can also make CS attempts while flat-footed.
6 New Spells: I'm considering the addition of three new spells. counterspell, lesser (3rd), counterspell (5th), and counterspell, greater (7th). Lesser would allow countering of up to 5th level, 5th level counterspell of levels up to 7th level, greater of levels up to 9th level. Unlike dispel magic you would not suffer the -4 penalty for not knowing the spell in question.
Questions, comments, and so on are, as always, welcome.
I went ahead and gave some more thought to the system, as well as put it into a google.doc, which can be found below.
I'm trying to use as much existing material as possible, adding things to pre-existing feats instead of contributing to feat bloat.
Right now it's pretty bare-bones.
Wouldn't it be easier to just draw counterspell attempts from the pool of available attacks of opportunity? I think that's actually a really elegant way of making counterspelling available.
Hey, thanks for the response.
I'm giving some consideration to doing that, but I don't want to "overload" the amount of counterspells available per round. Right now, I'm thinking you're right, it should draw from the pool of available attacks of opportunity, I'm just not sure how to handle a "hard limit" per round of if a hard limit is even needed. Unlike standard AoO, a caster would be giving up a limited resource (in the form of spells), while melee and ranged give up nothing (which I'm good with).
Thoughts?
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Most casters don't take Combat Reflexes, although if that means multiple counterspells, some will start thinking about it. Shutting down a BBEG is pretty interesting. OTOH, he can do it to you as well.
Thematically, casting a spell to counter takes a bit of time; so does an AoO. Therefore, drawing from the same pool of opportunities makes sense to me.
Of course, you can also still ready an action to counterspell. Which may be necessary when facing multiple spellcasters or one that's using Quicken.
As for the Improved Counterspell feat: leave it as-is, if you can counter as an AoO it's suddenly a good feat.
I like this; it's a simple change but I think it'll make a BIG difference. It makes Bonded Object-wizards a lot more powerful; the chances of having the right spell available for counterspelling are much higher than any other caster.
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Dotted.
When I saw the thread title, I thought of this method:
1. 5th or 10th level wizard discovery. Gain a number of "counterspell actions" equal to half your intelligence modifier per turn. When counterspelling using these "charges" you automatically identify the spell being cast as long as it's a spell you have prepared, and the enemy spellcaster gets +5 to the spell's counterspell dc. When you counter a spell this way, you lose the prepared spell that matches it. (Syntax is horrible, I know.)
I'll also add to this, since I remember a few sessions ago my GM was debating on using something like this.
Keep in mind that you're not considering how the different types of spells would interact. If I was an Arcane spellcaster trying to create an item or use something that involves Divine magic, I would have very great difficulties if I too didn't understand Divine spellcasting. If you're having a Divine caster fight an Arcane caster, you're going to have worlds of difference between countering.
To that end, I suggest that a caster trying to counter an enemy spellcaster who is not casting a spell of the same type of spellcasting (divine or arcane) suffers a -5 penalty to the counter check. It makes fighting fire with fire a good theme in this game, and not to mention it gives a little more power and strategy to those who dabble in both.
Some exceptions to that would be using a Dispel Magic spell, since that universally affects any type of magic equally, though if I was trying to counter a Flamestrike spell with a Fireball spell, it wouldn't go over too well, even if they are both Evocation (Fire) spells.
In addition, I'd rather it be an Immediate Action to counter a spell in that fashion, so as to not turn it into nothing but a "Counter eachother" game. It also makes the gimmick seem more of a strategy game, something which it should emulate: Do I play defensive and make him waste his Quickened spell slots on me, or should I just go full board and blast him down?
Another concept is you're making the ability to burn spells too easy, meaning it just boils down to whoever has the most spell slots/spells per day, and afterward it goes to whoever has the remaining slots/spells, if not an at-best tie where they start flailing their arms at eachother like little wimps in school. The game is designed to be casting 2 Spells in one round, tops. Casting more than that would not only break the game for the martials (as if the disparity isn't big enough), but defeat the purpose of having action restrictions, since you could technically blow everything and not have to worry about anything bad happening. And again, it requires the spellcaster to play strategy, their only real limiting factor in this game.
Because of this, it's better to rule that those who have an Extra Counterspell feat would allow them to make one extra counter per round as a Free Action that can be used outside their turn, though at a -5 to the counter check (sort of like an iterative penalty). Those who have a Counterspell Mastery effect should treat it like a Multiattack feat, reducing that penalty to -2. Being able to counter while flat-footed is very powerful, almost too good. Remove that, and you have a solid feat.
Changing Improved Counter and Greater Counter to grant the +2 to Counter and against Counter attempts would be best, instead of applying them to feats they may or may not otherwise take. (It does put on the importance and value of Bonus Feats, though.)
A Critical Counter should only allow an automatic success. The reverse should also be true, a Critical Failure should be an automatic failed attempt.
As far as the Backlash spell is concerned, it's pretty cool. I'd rather it go down to 1D4 per caster level, especially considering it would be Force damage, and its main intent is to serve as counterspelling. You also run into whether it should be an Immediate or Standard Action. (Probably Immediate Action for convenience and more applicable usage.) 4th level spell seems appropriate, since Dispel is 3rd, and the 1D4 per level is no different than a Burning Hands or M&Ms, which is 1st; combining the 2 effects into a 4th is equal power-wise.
Been a busy week and weekend for me, so haven't had much chance to get online. I just got done reading ya'lls posts and like some of the suggestions. One point made was being cautious with how many counterspell a could be made, as it is a disposable resource, and a caster could quickly deplete it (ie spells per day).
One suggestion is to limit the number of times to a per round based on Dex or Int; another was to limit it to 1 per round. I'm really leaning toward a range of 1-3 maximum, which means it couldn't be based off a stat. Perhaps improved counterspell grants +1 per round and the counterspell school grants +1 with other benefits (as a class feature).
Thoughts?
I'd have to say 3 tops; that includes the 1 Standard Action they make take, the 1 Immediate Action they may take, and the Extra Counterspell feat, which allows them to do so as a Free Action outside their turn, although they get a -5 penalty to the check for it being so spontaneous. (They can only take it once a round, which resets at the start of their next turn.) Have Improved and Greater Counterspell feats which increase both their CSB and CSD (Counterspell Bonus and Counterspell Defense, respectively) by 2 a piece, and stack. Requirements, I'm guessing caster class whom has a CL 4 and CL 12, respectively, similar to that of Weapon Specialization.
As a capstone feat, you could have Counterspell Specialization, requirement CL 15, Improved Counterspell, and Extra Counterspell, which lets you ignore any penalties caused from opposite spellcasting types (Arcane/Divine) and from the Extra Counterspell feat.
From a strategic standpoint, when the battle first starts, you're throwing out the highest/strongest spells first, meaning when you blow them right away, you're either getting the benefit you really need to shut somebody or someone down, or you're throwing out way too good of spells to get shot down like that. This does make a Heighten spell more valuable if you need a certain spell effect, but need it to be of a stronger spell level to prevent counterspelling. One could simply pop a measly 1st level spell to bait out a counterspell. (Of course, a successful Spellcraft check would void that.)
One big thing I will note is that if you're having somebody cast a Silence spell, it would refute any possibility of counterspelling making both Initiative and the Still Spell feat much more worthwhile to take, especially if said caster is being boxed in, or is the actual target and fails the saving throw. Keep in mind there are still ways to shut down counterspelling with a properly applied spell or tactic.
Line of Sight/Effect issues is another important thing you gotta watch with it; if you can't see them cast the spell, or be able to target them with a counterspell, the spells are still going to go off. Finding methods to cast on them without them casting on you are going to be your bread and butter when it comes to trading out in these kinds of combats.
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Da'ath: just use AoO-uses per round. That means normally only 1 per round unless you have Combat Reflexes. And you can't counterspell if you would be unable to make an AoO - like when you're flat-footed.
Thematically it makes sense to me. Counterspelling takes time. AoOs take time. Having two entirely separate time budgets for out of turn actions would be weird.
Da'ath: just use AoO-uses per round. That means normally only 1 per round unless you have Combat Reflexes. And you can't counterspell if you would be unable to make an AoO - like when you're flat-footed.
Thematically it makes sense to me. Counterspelling takes time. AoOs take time. Having two entirely separate time budgets for out of turn actions would be weird.
You then run into the problem I mention above. Combat Reflexes has no Dex requirement; it's not hard for a focused Spellcaster to have a super-high Dexterity and counter everything enemy spellcasters do in a round. When you're comparing 1 on 1, it's just a matter of time before spells run out and it turns into nerds flailing their arms at eachother, or in an uneven massed combat (or level disparity), one loses, with the other severely drained.
Don't get me wrong, if you could do more than 2 Spells/Round, then it would make sense, but it defeats the purpose of having multiple rounds, regardless of scenario since it leads to either unused "AoO's," or it leads to you running out of slots in 2-3 rounds while your party members are either getting shoved off by other martials, or the casters themselves, in which case it becomes Game Over for the PCs due to the outstripping of resources.
Of course, a solid strategy could tip those balances, but it's not like you won't come across spellcasters who aren't prepared to face those strategies.
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I don't think the odds of successfully countering every spell are close to 100%.
1) you need to succeed at the Spellcraft check. If you took Combat Casting to counter let's assume you maxed that.
2) you need to use the right spell, either
a) Dispel Magic, with a caster level check of 11+enemy caster level, which is <= 50% if you're fighting someone that's an actual threat to you, or:
b) The same spell; this is actually exciting. If you're a sorcerer and he's a wizard, maybe he knows spells you don't. If he's a sorcerer and you're a wizard, how many times did you prepare his favorite spell? If you're both wizards, did the other guy prepare suboptimal spells just to surprise you? A bonded object's ability to cast any spell in your spellbook is suddenly really valuable.
c) A higher-level spell of the same school, using Improved Counterspell. Which means you'll probably run out before he does, and if he's just as powerful as you, there'll be some spells you can't counter.
3) It seems that the person you want to counterspell must actually be in range of the spell you're using as a counterspell. It's not easy countering touch spells and self-buffs.
All in all, I think counterspelling isn't such a sure thing. The main function may be to buy time for your team's martials to close in on the enemy or to block specific spells you absolutely hate, like escape and domination spells.
Dotting for later.