To my dismay, one of my players has found a way to exploit a game mechanic that I thought had been fixed years ago. He multiclassed between fighter and inquisitor and in doing so stacked the good fort saves that both classes provide. According to the CRB this is legal.
I remember back in 3.x this was not the case, and you were only supposed to take the fractional progression based off how many levels of each progression you had. That is, if I have 11 levels, regardless of how many of them are fighter, inquisitor, ranger, or anyone else with a good fort save, my base fort save should be the same as if I had stayed single classed.
According to the CRB however this is not the case, and multiclassing in such a way actually will stack your base saves, essentially giving you the feat Great Fortitude for free.
Has anyone else had this issue come up in game?
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As a player, I've seen it a few times and it really didn't do much for saving them. If they stack classes just for better saves, they'll suffer in other ways. It's not that fantastic of a tradeoff without the right synergy. If it were a Monk/Druid... they'd have 4 Fort, 2 Reflex, and 4 Will. With a 25 point buy, they could easily be 5 Fort, 6 Reflex, and 8 Will at level 2. It could certainly be worse : P
It personally doesn't bother me. If it does bother you, you should set a cap on the classes allowed in a character. I'd say 2 or 3 at the most.
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I've seen it, but I don't find it particularly distressing; players make sacrifices if they're multi-classing, even if they are just dipping. Characters with one insanely high save are just that guy everyone talks about being able to knock back the whole keg in the party, or a Rasputin (stab him, poison him, shoot him, still ticking).
You can challenge them on their weak saves, use spells that bypass saves, and/or just let them shine every now and then.
Don't see any problem with it...More often than not, delaying your main class features in order to get a small boost to saves is not a great deal.
It's not a concern. Every time a character takes a new class, she gets a one-time save boost at the cost of future progression in an existing class. Yes, you can get ridiculous saves if you take a single level in twenty classes, but you'll likely have a more or less terrible combatant with no relevant class abilities. Besides, this system works against the character with regards to base attack bonus.
Basically, the character didn't get anything "for free".
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I remember back in 3.x this was not the case, and you were only supposed to take the fractional progression based off how many levels of each progression you had. That is, if I have 11 levels, regardless of how many of them are fighter, inquisitor, ranger, or anyone else with a good fort save, my base fort save should be the same as if I had stayed single classed.
Fractional saves was an OPTIONAL rule back in 3.5 along with Fractional BAB.
For what it is worth while a Clerc 1/Inquisitor 1/Druid 1/Monk 1 might get good saves by not using fractional rules, he also has a BAB of 0 instead of 3 that he would have using fractional BAB. HE is also casting as a first level character and basically useless to a group.... but he has good saves :) And just think of the Wisdom Synergy....
A character could end up pretty strong if he does his level dips right.
Fighter, Ranger, Divine Hunter, all of them give out bonus feats that could end up buying in almost the entire archery feat chain.
Not that I'm too concerned, but I just remember doing things differently back in the day.
I just use fractional BAB/saves. You get the +2 only once per save. Meaning, if you start off fighter and multiclass rogue, you'd get both the +2 Fort (from fighter) and +2 Ref (from rogue); from there, you'd add up the fractions to get your total bonus.
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Heh, I remember a friend and I back in the day plotted out a character in 3.0 that had about a +16-20 base save for all three saves at 11th level due to having 10 character classes, 5 of which were prestige classes. He also added his Dex, Int, Wis, and Cha modifiers to AC. Most defensive character ever!
Had a terrible BAB though, and 1st level spells. He couldn't actually do anything besides not die.
I remember back in 3.x this was not the case,
Yes, it was.
He will get 2 bonus from multi classing somthing like a figther in but he will lose somthing from reflex unless he do it at 3, 6, 9 or 12 and so on. i think he is loosing more than he is gaining. i always saw the fractional save and bab rules as somthing that gave more power to multiclassing.
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A multiclassed Inquisitor misses out on spell progression, which is a real blow to their hslf-caster status already, and delayed access to Bane and Greater Bane.
A multiclassed Fighter misses out on having a full BAB, delayed access to Weapon/Armor Training, and qualifying for feats with Fighter level prerequisites.
I'm probably biased, because I'm more of a purist, but the loss of abilities in exchange for saves that you could just boost with equipment anyways isn't a strong choice.
It's not a concern. Every time a character takes a new class, she gets a one-time save boost at the cost of future progression in an existing class. Yes, you can get ridiculous saves if you take a single level in twenty classes, but you'll likely have a more or less terrible combatant with no relevant class abilities. Besides, this system works against the character with regards to base attack bonus.
Basically, the character didn't get anything "for free".
Challenge accepted. I will post a L15 (15 classes) build in the builds thread later.
The exploit that Pathfinder removed re: saves was to change Prestige Classes to not give +2 bumps to good saves at first level. I still like Prestige Classes and multiclassing in Pathfinder, but save stacking PrC dips was very powerful in 3.5
I have a friend whose a super optimizer and he got challenged to build a character with no mote than one class in any level. He was level 8 or 9 last time I played with his character and he was a beast. His fort and will saves are ridiculous (like +16 or so) but his reflex was only a +4. Anyeay, he made a nearly unkillable pc, though hes hurting a little in the attack/damage department, but not terribly so.
I like monk (sohei/moms) dips!
To my dismay, one of my players has found a way to exploit a game mechanic that I thought had been fixed years ago. He multiclassed between fighter and inquisitor and in doing so stacked the good fort saves that both classes provide. According to the CRB this is legal.
I remember back in 3.x this was not the case, and you were only supposed to take the fractional progression based off how many levels of each progression you had. That is, if I have 11 levels, regardless of how many of them are fighter, inquisitor, ranger, or anyone else with a good fort save, my base fort save should be the same as if I had stayed single classed.
According to the CRB however this is not the case, and multiclassing in such a way actually will stack your base saves, essentially giving you the feat Great Fortitude for free.
Has anyone else had this issue come up in game?
The fractional BAB and saves were house rules presented in Unearth Arcana. By the normal rules they stack, but the weak saves also stack, and multiclassing in Pathfinder generally leaves to a weaker character all around. The fighter will lose BAB, and the inquisitor will lose spells and skills, along with other class features. If all he is getting is saves then don't worry about it. He could have good saves without even multiclassing.
a Fighter 2/ Cavalier 2/ Ranger 2/ Paladin 2/ Monk 2 (just for example, and arguably more effective than what your player is doing), while fairly nifty and very survivable, is far from problematic.
In 3.5 this build tactic actually worked better, since you didn't have to worry about losing capstone abilities etc.
The exploit that Pathfinder removed re: saves was to change Prestige Classes to not give +2 bumps to good saves at first level. I still like Prestige Classes and multiclassing in Pathfinder, but save stacking PrC dips was very powerful in 3.5
Of course, there are more than enough base classes to get really high saves--if you don't mind having a plethora of mediocre abilities.
I am not even sure what is the problem.
