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Can't fine a satisfactory answer online so we try here:
(and I would assume some parts are under GM discretion as most things are but whatever...)
I have a lvl 2 sorcerer with +9 acrobatics and shocking grasp and I want to use this combo:
Shocking grasp + acrobatics combo:
In theory I would like to use my SA to cast SG and hold the charge, then use acrobatics to move through an enemy square (w/o AOO) and release the charge while doing so (eg if they were to leapfrog over, or a step jump, or slide between a larger characters legs and push off of one of them.... etc)
would this be possible?
Since the touch is a free action (should be?)
(
Normally I could just run up to an enemy and use acrobatics to avoid an AOO when I enter the threatened square, and then use my SA to cast and release SG.
The reason why I want to pass through the square is because:
If i fail the acro check, I should still be holding the charge for SG.
SG would be released if i touched something even unintentionally
If i get struck in the face or just plow into the enemy when I'm trying to do some fancy wushuu stunt flip around/over them, at least they would get zapped at the same time.
It would go something like this:
SG and hold the charge
Move and make the check to see if i can avoid the AOO with my acro and move through the enemy square
Roll for a touch attack
If I make the acro and touch check, then I would leapfrog over the enemy and zap them with SG in the process
If I make the acros but fail the touch, then I would jump too high and just sail over the enemy without using my SG (could I land and touch them as a free action? or do I have to wait till the next round to use the touch attack as a regular SA?)
If I fail the acro, fail the touch then I wipe out on my face in front of the enemy and they get an AOO
If I fail the acro and make the touch, then I would have tripped and opened myself up to an AOO but managed to brush or touch the enemy zapping them at the same time.
from my GM "There are feats and abilities for attacks you can make during a move action, which I think is the main issue, because you're attacking during your move (even if it's a free action, it's effectively interrupting your move action). Also, you're not just trying to avoid the enemy, but avoid and attack at the same time, which makes it more complex."
from another GM "If I were GMing the game then I would likely not allow an acrobatics check to serve dual purpose of maneuvering through a threatened space and deliver touch attack. The idea sounds really good. So much so that if this were in the middle of a game and the idea flashed up I might give it a one time allowance, but would frown on its continued usage.
Acro is a skill check, but but in the game world how it works is cosmetics. There is nothing to say that you are leapfrogging or cartwheeling or limboing or even doing the worm to avoid being hit."
I want to do the worm while zapping people all through combat; I'd call it the horizontal electric eel...
Can anyone help clarify how this would/could work?
You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.
In your example you want to cast a spell, move, attack and move again. That isnt a valid option by RAW.
Even if you cast the spell in round 1 and then do your combo (move, attack, move) in round 2 is not possible.
You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge.
Touching with a holded charge is at least a standard action and not a free action.
Addtionally: SG is not a shield or some kind of protection. If an enemy hits you while holding the charge the charge dont discharge. It only discharges if you hit someone or something. This requires an attack roll (in case of an enemy who dont want to be hit).
You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
So nothing of your ideas work by RAW. You need at least a feat like 'Spring attack' for attacking in round 2.
Sure... just pick up Spring Attack and you're golden. Otherwise, I agree with the two GMs you quoted as well as Eridan. You'd be getting extra actions for free.
Did you mean it like this?
Standard action to cast the spell (the spell itself gives you a free action with which to touch an enemy to discharge the spell) then move to do acrobatics?So you want to use the normal rules for free action that says you may take a free actoin anytime on your turn to cast the standard and then use the free, freeaction attack to touch during an acrobatics check?
This. You would touch after making the acrobatics check.
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This. You would touch after making the acrobatics check.Did you mean it like this?
Standard action to cast the spell (the spell itself gives you a free action with which to touch an enemy to discharge the spell) then move to do acrobatics?So you want to use the normal rules for free action that says you may take a free actoin anytime on your turn to cast the standard and then use the free, freeaction attack to touch during an acrobatics check?
I agree with Zwordsman and Robert: what you want to do is CAST + ACROBATICS/MOVE + MELEE TOUCH to deliver
Notes:
1. Acrobatics: When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You also have to beat the enemy's CMD. Make sure your acrobatics modifier is HIGH.
2. Invest in high Dexterity, which helps acrobatics, and coincidentally, if you take Weapon Finesse, will also help with your melee touch to deliver your spells.
3. I play a bard in a local campaign, and if you're really serious about touch spells, you'll want Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack.
I don't think you're able to use Spring Attack with Shocking Grasp as the Feat is a Full-Round Action that specifically allows for a single melee attack.
The only way you MAY be able to pull this off is if Shocking Grasp is Quickened. You'd use the Spring Attack Full-Round Action to run in, attack, and run out, sneaking in the Quickened (non-provoking Swift Action) Shocking Grasp while threatening the opponent, either before or after the melee attack.
It's fairly Feat-heavy, and does not utilize the Acrobatics Skill.
:Byronus
I don't think you're able to use Spring Attack with Shocking Grasp as the Feat is a Full-Round Action that specifically allows for a single melee attack.
The only way you MAY be able to pull this off is if Shocking Grasp is Quickened. You'd use the Spring Attack Full-Round Action to run in, attack, and run out, sneaking in the Quickened (non-provoking Swift Action) Shocking Grasp while threatening the opponent, either before or after the melee attack.
It's fairly Feat-heavy, and does not utilize the Acrobatics Skill.
:Byronus
A melee touch attack to deliver a held charge is still a melee attack. You could use Acrobatics while moving during a Spring Attack, because you can make an Acrobatics check as part of any movement other than a charge (and even there you'll find table variation). However, there's not really any reason to: with Spring Attack you don't provoke an AoO from the target of your melee attack anyway.
But since Spring Attack is a full round action, you'd have to cast the spell, hold the charge, then Spring Attack to deliver the charge on the next round. It would cost you two rounds this way, and the only thing that that you'd gain is not ending your turn next to the target of the spell.
And it's still a 3-feat investment. (Maybe start with Spire Defender Magus, since you get Dodge for free?)
You can definitely full attack with touches. Chill touch is used in this way. A touch holding a spell is considered an armed attack. Nothing limits you to the attack action when making touch attacks. I would even allow you to discharge a touch spell with grapple and bull rush.
Thanks for all the replies ^^
This. You would touch after making the acrobatics check.Did you mean it like this?
Standard action to cast the spell (the spell itself gives you a free action with which to touch an enemy to discharge the spell) then move to do acrobaticsSo you want to use the normal rules for free action that says you may take a free actoin anytime on your turn to cast the standard and then use the free, freeaction attack to touch during an acrobatics check?
I agree with Zwordsman and Robert: what you want to do is CAST + ACROBATICS/MOVE + MELEE TOUCH to deliver
Notes:
1. Acrobatics: When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You also have to beat the enemy's CMD. Make sure your acrobatics modifier is HIGH.
2. Invest in high Dexterity, which helps acrobatics, and coincidentally, if you take Weapon Finesse, will also help with your melee touch to deliver your spells.
3. I play a bard in a local campaign, and if you're really serious about touch spells, you'll want Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack.
This is kinda of the culmination of things that I was looking for, thanks everyone ^^
I'm only a lvl 2 sorcerer so Spring attack is pretty far away (since BAB +4 is required...)
I have a +9 for acro, and adaptable luck gives another +2= +11 total
so beating the CMD might be okay? (i guess just to avoid the AOO would be fine, but I was actually saving this combo for if I get cornered, or if it provides an easy flank.... or just to look cool)
A free action can be made during another action (example: reloading as part of a full attack action), so I see no problem on releasing your spell while you move.
All I see is without a buff for your move speed and a real investment in acrobatics, it's just fun and don't provide real benefices. It even add risks, as a fail in your acrobatics can be devastating for you.
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I don't think you're able to use Spring Attack with Shocking Grasp as the Feat is a Full-Round Action that specifically allows for a single melee attack.
The only way you MAY be able to pull this off is if Shocking Grasp is Quickened. You'd use the Spring Attack Full-Round Action to run in, attack, and run out, sneaking in the Quickened (non-provoking Swift Action) Shocking Grasp while threatening the opponent, either before or after the melee attack.
It's fairly Feat-heavy, and does not utilize the Acrobatics Skill.
:Byronus
yes you need rod of lesser quicken or the quicken feat; otherwise you have to wait until next round (i.e. start round 2 while holding the charge)
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... from my GM "There are feats and abilities for attacks you can make during a move action, which I think is the main issue, because you're attacking during your move (even if it's a free action, it's effectively interrupting your move action). Also, you're not just trying to avoid the enemy, but avoid and attack at the same time, which makes it more complex."...
We'll try this out over the weekend and report back. I'd love to get this to work out, not just because Soe made an effort to go beyond simple attacks, but because it would work in the real world (imagine vaulting over someone).
I would put weapon finesse in there. It´s another feat, but makes hitting and AC a bit easier.
I don't understand all this talk about "holding the charge." Shocking Grasp [SG] takes 1 Standard Action to cast, has an "Instantaneous" Duration, and a Range of "Touch."
School evocation [electricity]; Level magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range touch
Target creature or object touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
Your successful melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 5d6). When delivering the jolt, you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or is carrying a metal weapon or is made of metal).
As far as I understand it, you use 1 Standard Action to cast SG and, if successful, you get a Free Touch Attack out of it to determine whether you zap your enemy. It appears to only work if you're threatening your target, which probably means you'll provoke an AoO while casting, unless you're casting defensively. Perhaps Kazaan is correct in saying you can have your 1 Standard Action to cast, then the Move, THEN the Free Action Touch Attack, but I don't think that's RAW, or RAI.
You CAN'T cast the spell, or Chill Touch for that matter, in the middle of the Spring Attack because it only grants you 1 Melee Attack, NOT 1 Standard Action in the middle of your movement. Spring Attack itself is a Full-Round Action.
You CAN'T see it working with Acrobatics at all, at least not all in the same Round.
The only way I see it working is if the spell is Quickened, where the Spring Attack is used first (Personally, I'd Trip), then the Quickened SG is cast as a Swift action (which doesn't provoke), you get your free Touch Attack, and move away.
"Holding the charge" isn't possible. If it were, it would have a Duration like "Call Lightning", with text specifically saying the charge to be held:
School evocation [electricity]; Level druid 3; Domain catastrophe 3, weather 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect one or more 30-ft.-long vertical lines of lightning
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Reflex half; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
Immediately upon completion of the spell, and once per round thereafter, you may call down a 5-foot-wide, 30-foot-long, vertical bolt of lightning that deals 3d6 points of electricity damage. The bolt of lightning flashes down in a vertical stroke at whatever target point you choose within the spell's range (measured from your position at the time). Any creature in the target square or in the path of the bolt is affected.
You need not call a bolt of lightning immediately; other actions, even spellcasting, can be performed first. Each round after the first you may use a standard action (concentrating on the spell) to call a bolt. You may call a total number of bolts equal to your caster level (maximum 10 bolts).
If you are outdoors and in a stormy area - a rain shower, clouds and wind, hot and cloudy conditions, or even a tornado (including a whirlwind formed by a djinni or an air elemental of at least Large size) - each bolt deals 3d10 points of electricity damage instead of 3d6.
This spell functions indoors or underground but not underwater.
:Byronus
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.
and
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round.
Also the FAQ for Chill Touch (a touch spell with an instantaneous duration) says that you are considered to be holding the charge. It is pretty clear how it works.
FAQ
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.and
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round.Also the FAQ for Chill Touch (a touch spell with an instantaneous duration) says that you are considered to be holding the charge. It is pretty clear how it works.
FAQ
I stand corrected. Thanks for the link. ;)
It's odd that the "holding the charge" property would be lumped in with a Range parameter. Wouldn't it make more sense to catalogue it under "Duration: Instantaneous; Held Charge?" :P
In that case, you CAN discharge the SG during a Spring Attack, if SG is cast during the previous round, but you still have the 1 Melee Attack as well.
:Byronus
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Byronus, Holding the Charge is in the rules for melee touch attack spells.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Hmm, just did a little digging and found that there actually is a restriction on the free touch to deliver on the turn you cast a touch spell.
I'll quote for you, well found:
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
@Byronus: Spring attack is discussed in a "2 rounds" perspective. Round 1 to cast and hold the charge, round 2 to deliver.
On that topic, I'm still curious: there is no indication on what kind of action is needed to deliver a spell by a touch attack in round 2 and more. Is it an attack action ? A standard action ? Anyone have something on this ?
If you were planning on ending your turn adjacent to the enemy after you tumble through his square, but want the flavor of delivering the spell as you leap over him, instead of after you land, there really ins't any mechanical difference between the two, and saying you deliver it while you are jumping, rather than after you land, is really just fluff.
It would definitely still require a touch attack roll, as well as the acrobatics roll, but that otherwise that describing it that way would be perfectly fine.
If though, you wanted to leap over him, make a touch attack, land and then move away so you were not in the enemies threatened area that would be a whole different thing, requiring spring attack and dealing with the proper actions as others have mentioned.
Spring attack does require two feats; Dodge & mobility. So if you were looking for a way to do this without spending three feats, you can't.
Although if someone's looking to do a "move around in melee" character, Dodge and Mobility are going to be on the "to get" list, anyway.
Since Mobility gives you +4 AC vs. AoOs when you move through a threatened area, this build would probably want it.
Although it would only be once a day, you might be able to use a quick runners shirt to get an extra move action after you've landed the touch attack. Effectively:
(i) Standard to Cast the Spell
(ii) Move Action with Acrobatics to prevent the AoO
(iii)Free Action touch attack (It's after your move action so it satisfies that rule)
(iv) Swift Action to trigger quick runners shirt
(v) Move action granted from the shirt to move away from target with further acrobatic rolls as necessary
