Hey guys, I'm looking at making some changes to the Paladin class. The first thing I want to do is make it a Prestige Class, because to me Paladin has always seemed to be way too narrow a concept to really fall into core class territory.
The second change I'm looking to make is that I would like to remove spellcasting. The difficult part is that I don't know what to use to replace the spellcasting, and I'm concerned about how to properly compress the class into 10 levels to be a PrC.
Here's what I've got so far...
Prereqs:
Alignment: Lawful Good
Skills: Knowledge: Religion 3 Ranks, Ride 3 Ranks, Diplomacy 3 Ranks, Sense Motive 3 Ranks
Base Attack Bonus: +3
Class Skills
The paladin's class skills are Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis),Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive(Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and all armor and shields (besides tower shield).
Full Base Attack Bonus, Good Fort and Will Save.
Level 1: Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day
Level 2: Divine grace, lay on hands, Aura of Courage
Level 3: divine health, mercy, channel positive energy
Level 4: Smite evil 2/day, Divine Bond
Level 5: Aura of Resolve
Level 6: Aura of Justice, Mercy
Level 7: Aura of Faith, Smite Evil 3/Day
Level 8: Aura of Righteousness, Smite Evil 4/Day
Level 9: Mercy
Level 10: Smite Evil 5/Day, Holy Champion
All of the abilities are exactly like their Paladin Namesake at present, viewable here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/paladin.html#_paladin
The idea is that it is a class that can potentially be taken as early as 3rd Level, though given skill points I guess that's not entirely likely. I haven't playtested it and on paper I worry that it might get too strong too fast. I know the Prestige Paladin in Unearthed Arcana was a 15 level PrC and I thought I might try to do that.
Anyway, any feedback or advice would be good.
You could:
- ...return their radiation of a constant Protection from Evil, which the AD&D paladin possessed. It'd be quite a formidable power, but ... considering their loss of spells, entirely reasonable
- ...consider making their DR, assuming you give them one, effective against evil alone, instead of everything but evil
- ...grant immunity to energy drain at higher level
- ...allow their divine mount to be a creature other than a horse or other low powered being. Leave it in the hands of the DM: If they like the idea of a 10th level paladin mounted on, say, a silver dragon, such should be possible
Really depends on how bad-ass you want them to be.
I like a lot of those ideas, except for the Dragon Mount thing. I tend to run Dragons as super big entities so I don't want anything or anyone riding them without it being a mythic thing.
I want Paladins to be bad-ass enough to justify there being a prerequisite to being one. More powerful, at least circumstantially, than Fighters but not supremely so.
DetectiveKatana wrote: I like a lot of those ideas, except for the Dragon Mount thing. I tend to run Dragons as super big entities so I don't want anything or anyone riding them without it being a mythic thing. Your vision should prevail. It's your game.
You could easily employ a smaller mount, though, along the same lines/principles. Dragon horses, griffins/hippogriffs, kirin, pegasi and unicorns (though I've always preferred requiring a virgin paladin for such a steed, rather than the easy-out 'purity of heart') are all possibilities. One could even customize an outsider in steed form; this would allow the DM to create a creature/being whose powers complement those of the paladin.
Other ideas to consider (though some are in my opinion a stretch): - Some sort of gradually more discerning senses that peel through lies, illusion and other forms of deception
- An internalized force that can eventually purge a curse, poison, and other impurities, and eventually results in immunity to same
- An ability to somehow divinely intercede for an evil creature who genuinely wishes to repent, allowing them to offer battle on their behalf that they might receive a "fresh start" (perhaps at risk to their own purity/soul)
- An angelic companion (along the lines of, say, Jiminy Cricket), allowing the DM (in his guise as God/the gods) to assist the paladin in keeping on the straight and narrow and even provide minor boons and advice on occasion
One could use one, some, all or none of these. I just thought they sounded interesting.
I myself love the class, and think a high-level paladin should strike fear into the hearts of demons, devils, evil casters and even malevolent godlings.
(Ironically enough, playing one when I'm DMing isn't easy. I demand a great deal from them.)
3.5 had an alternate class feature where the Paladin got a bonus feat at every level they normally reached a new level of spells.
So, 1st one at 4th level and so on..
I think the feat had to be a combat feat, or maybe combat or some other type.
It is a pretty simple fix
Pretty boring, too, if it's intended as the sole change.
One thing I want to add to them is an ability called "Smite Evil's Servant." Basically it would allow smite to effect non-evil creatures that were following the evil orders, but all of the damage would be nonlethal.
That's an interesting thought.
One could also rule that anyone serving a great evil has its mantle overshadow it and allow a paladin's smite evil to work on them for the duration of the association.
I've done a quick "feat equivalent" analysis of all of the core classes. Interestingly, if you don't count Spell Casting, a 20th level Paladin has 244 Feat-equivalent abilities, which is almost exactly the same as a Barbarian, Monk or Wizard. So I'm all for removing it - they can take a few cleric levels if they want to cast spells so badly ;-)
* Counting +1 BAB = 3F, D10 HP = 4F, 3 Skill Points = 1F, and similar.
Out of curiosity PD, where do Fighters fall on the Feat-Equivalent analysis?
DetectiveKatana wrote: Out of curiosity PD, where do Fighters fall on the Feat-Equivalent analysis? Where do you think? hehehe
Ok, I'll be serious. Here are all the core classes, at 1st, 10th & 20th level:
Barbarian: 24/127/246
Bard: 32/133/261
Cleric: 27/129/270
Druid: 28/142/297 (Domain, not Animal Companion)
Fighter: 21/110/208
Monk: 24/125/237
Paladin: 22/129/244 (275 w. Spell casting)
Ranger: 25/123/231 (262 w. Spell Casting)
Rogue: 23/106/201
Sorcerer: 20/102/249 (Arcane bloodline w. Bonded Object)
Wizard: 17/94/245 (Specialist, w. Bonded Object)
Bards, Clerics & Druids get 33% reduction on Spell Cost to reflect fact that they're less blastery than arcane magic
Sorcerers get 20% reduction on Spell Cost to reflect limited Known spells.
Big caveat: I'm quite happy with this analysis as a starting point for review because it seems to produce largely sensible results. With a few exceptions. However, it is a clumsy and rather blunt tool. Bards have a lot of abilities but sometimes the total is less than the sum of the parts. Similarly, Monks get loads of Feat equivalents, but with a lot of "utility" feats (immunity to disease, slow fall, etc.) that maybe don't balance out their weaknesses. And spell-casting is a difficult one: I decided +1 Caster Level was worth a Feat (it improves the power of every single spell), +1 Spell Level was worth a Feat and then each spell was worth Spell Level/2 in Feats. I think it might under-value high level spells, but its a decent starting point for comparison.
Of course, there are lots of judgement calls in these numbers. E.g. I considered Weapon Training to be worth 3 Feats, making it roughly 3x better than Weapon Focus. Similarly with Rage, which gives 5 positive things (Str x2, Con x2, Will) and 2 negative (AC, Fatigue). Paladin's Aura of Courage I treated as 2 Feats: the bit that helps the Paladin and the bit that helps the party. I also treated Class Skills as being worth 0.5 Feat per skill: +3 contingent on 1 SP being spent on it felt like it was roughly half a Skill Focus. This subjectivity means the analysis is pretty much worthless in any scientific sense!
Small caveat: It's not just about the total, it's also the spread. Fighters are quite optimised at 1st level: their feats all help them in melee, and being good in melee is critical at that level.
I appreciate that you acknowledge that this is an oversimplified tool, capable of making monks seem way more powerful than they've seemed to be in play testing.
So I guess my next question is, would Paladins be powerful enough just not having spells?
DetectiveKatana wrote: I appreciate that you acknowledge that this is an oversimplified tool, capable of making monks seem way more powerful than they've seemed to be in play testing.
So I guess my next question is, would Paladins be powerful enough just not having spells?
In my view, yes.
I think needing 5 levels before a PrC is about right on. Not too early, not too late. Maybe make the KnowReligion prereq at 5 ranks, but leave the BAB at 3.
EDIT: oh forgot. I don't see anything wrong with Paladin advancing another divine spellcasting class. Maybe 2 levels advance, then skip a level.
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