Goblin Squad Member
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As long as the chat bubbles COULD appear there is the ability to make a feature based off of it. Which is to say, even if you as an individual turn off the chat bubbles, the server still registers them and registers you in the same area (i think). This means you don't have to actually "hear" the bubbles for the system to say you "heard" (were in the area of) that person speaking.
As long as the chat bubbles COULD appear there is the ability to make a feature based off of it. Which is to say, even if you as an individual turn off the chat bubbles, the server still registers them and registers you in the same area (i think). This means you don't have to actually "hear" the bubbles for the system to say you "heard" (were in the area of) that person speaking.
No you really can't. If the only way I can get in game cues is by having chat bubbles turned on then chat bubbles really are not optional anymore even if I can turn them off. The only way to make any sense of what is going is to have them turned on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have no problem with local chat going into a chat window...timestamped, but without names if I do not know the person. Again, I think this system should come with a client-side ability to Rolodex people...enter whatever information you want, including nicknames/realnames you can toggle on a nameplate. Whatever is in the nameplate, shows in the chat window.
In fact, this entirely removes the need to even name yourself during character creation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Steelwing
What I don't think I made clear is this:
Whether you see the bubbles or not they still appear in the server log. This is shown because it appears in the chat window. You can turn the bubbles off on your end but they still appear for everyone else, and in the server, you just don't see them. To the server you still see them, and thus it can act in that manner, even if they visibly are gone. Is that more clear?
I'm assuming there will be chat bubbles + chat window, as apposed to one over the other.
@Forencith
I do not see how that removes the need to name your character O:
@Steelwing
What I don't think I made clear is this:
Whether you see the bubbles or not they still appear in the server log. This is shown because it appears in the chat window. You can turn the bubbles off on your end but they still appear for everyone else, and in the server, you just don't see them. To the server you still see them, and thus it can act in that manner, even if they visibly are gone. Is that more clear?
I'm assuming there will be chat bubbles + chat window, as apposed to one over the other.
@Forencith
I do not see how that removes the need to name your character O:
Yes I am clear on what you meant.
However that doesnt change the fact that a chat log without names is absolutely no use because you have no idea who said what. Under the proposed system the chat bubbles were how you tied the person to the statement therefore no chat bubbles then chat is basically a waste of time.
Whether it appears in the server log is completely irrelevant chat is rendered basically useless without turning chat bubbles on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Steelwing
Ah I understand your concern.
That said, I'll agree and disagree (I seem to enjoy that statement...). Simply because it makes it difficult doesn't make it useless. I was assuming some form of name will be given (in this case a generic name, like "mage X". or a player chooses an alias). With this assumption in mind I was making the argument just because it isn't the name doesn't mean it is useless. You don't always know the name of the people talking irl.
However if we are assuming no name popped up then yes, it is useless.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"[14:23:18] Someone says 'Hi'"
As long as you can right-click on "Someone" in the chat log, then you have what you need in order to /report them, send a /tell to them, or even /tag them with a nickname like "Bob" so that the next time you see them your chat log shows:
"[14:32:27] (Bob) says 'Hi'"
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Goblin Squad Member
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"[14:23:18] Someone says 'Hi'"
As long as you can right-click on "Someone" in the chat log, then you have what you need in order to /report them, send a /tell to them, or even /tag them with a nickname like "Bob" so that the next time you see them your chat log shows:
"[14:32:27] (Bob) says 'Hi'"
And that is why this removes the need to choose a name at character creation. People will use whatever name they either tag you with (Loud mounth #2, Ganker 16 (3/13/2014), Bob, etc) or whatever name you give them...assuming they tag you with it (Brother Zael the Malevolent King-making Tightrope-walker, KitNyx, Nihimon of T7V, etc.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bows
I see your point now, dear Foreskinth
wait now hold on there Mr. Malevolent. Age rating please.
Ah...but this issue removes that problem too...with no names but that which you document in your "Rolodex". You do not have to worry about people choosing rude/crude names, you only have to worry about you giving them such names.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think we need a local chat which can be for anything, and have the ability to have chat bubbles they are used to represent what our characters are saying. No chat bubles = no roleplaying of my character. Something like what is used in persistent worlds for Neverwinter would be fine by me. Players tend to use tells to individual players and speech excluesively for RP purposes.
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I think we need a local chat which can be for anything, and have the ability to have chat bubbles they are used to represent what our characters are saying. No chat bubles = no roleplaying of my character. Something like what is used in persistent worlds for Neverwinter would be fine by me. Players tend to use tells to individual players and speech excluesively for RP purposes.
I don't mind you having chat bubbles as long as I can turn them off and not be limited as to knowing who said what in say
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Well, without chat bubbles, maybe you can just click on a message in chat window to highlight\target speaker? Or there can be generic nametags associated with people that you don't know ("Human 2", "Trader 17", "Adventurer 142").
After all, characters can be identified by some unique ID number, which is then searched in the client rolodex for a character's name, and the characters that are not currently in the rolodex will receive some generic nametags. Perhaps you can allow players to choose their nametag title from some list. Adoption of a new identity through the spy skills will give you a new temporary ID or, if you are trying to imitate someone, maybe you can even get their ID.
If, players are allowed to edit names in their rolodex, then, yes, you don't even need fixed names from character creation, except for some kind of /introduce command.
People are missing that the chat window becomes useless without unique names which is why someone suggested chat bubbles will solve it.
You are standing in tavern with 9 people you don't know you see
Player 1: Hello there can I speak to you a moment player 2
Player 1: *waits patiently while the other 9 players wonder which of them is player 2*
Without unique ids you will never know from a chat window who is talking and who they are talking too. This is not even something that can be solved with chat bubbles either because those only work in line of sight of people talking. You can absolutely forget any channel other than say being usable.
Nor does the rolodex idea work as in the first example
Player 1: Hello there [Name he has assigned] can I talk to you a minute
Player 1: *waits patiently while the other 8 wonder who [name he has assigned] is*
I suspect if such a system is implemented that a lot of people will just give up on chat other than the guild chat style channels.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When you walk into a bar and know nobody there you can introduce yourself, and if the others are sociable they will reciprocate and you can speak directly to each, or you can speak to the room generally, as when you relate a joke. If they aren't sociable you don't want to know them anyway. I think you are construing a problem where there is none, Steelwing.
Speaking of bars: Shrodinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Well, in real life you can't address some stranger in a crowd with 100% accuracy. But nothing stops you from sending /tell or /whisper or something like that, which will decode generic nametag or alias from rolodex into unique ID and send message to the right character. Or, even, you can add this character to your rolodex with some makeshift name.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why does anyone need to know who said what when they don't know any of the speakers whatsoever anyway? I see no need for names over people's heads unless I'm acquainted with them, and I see no need for chat bubbles either. You want to know who someone is, initiate an introduction. They accept or they do not. If you want to know who said what, first establish the 'who'. Otherwise knowing who said what is no more meaningful, but much more complicated.
Why does anyone need to know who said what when they don't know any of the speakers whatsoever anyway? I see no need for names over people's heads unless I'm acquainted with them, and I see no need for chat bubbles either. You want to know who someone is, initiate an introduction. They accept or they do not. If you want to know who said what, first establish the 'who'. Otherwise knowing who said what is no more meaningful, but much more complicated.
I just fail to see any benefit in not showing peoples names. Immersion is not a reason as that his highly subjective frankly everyone being anonymous ciphers is going to be more irritating than immersing for a lot of people.
I am happy for their to be an option for you to turn off player names showing should you prefer it but I don't see why I should have to suffer the irritation. I would point you at the secret world where player names not showing is the default setting and you have to go into interface options to turn it on, Guess what one of the FAQ questions is about, that's right how to do it.
If PfO gives you the option to toggle off floating names why is that not enough for you and you wish to force this anonymity on the rest of us. What do you really think it adds to the game benefit wise because I really do not see anything that I would call a benefit
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is an attempt to counter the Red/Blue designation. It would only partly mitigate the threat of NBSI, but a partial mitigation is better than none whatsoever.
Secondly if bandits have spies observing transactions it should help mitigate sure identification that can be reliably transmitted to the hideout for targeting.
Thirdly it should encourage more meaningful socialization as the player slowly populates their world with characters they have met.
As to the speech thing the reason I wish to follow the conversations in chat windows and address people by name is simple. Conversations in general chat are often about non game things and if someone makes a point and I wish to direct a comment at them I should be able to do so and for that I need a name
example
Somedude : I think x is great because y
Another dude : Say: something on a different topic
Yet another dude : Replies to another dude
Me: Hey some dude that is becsause you havent thought about z
without being specifically addressing my comment to some dude then it is not clear whether my response is to him or on of the other two posters.
If you come back and suggest that name you get allocated in chat for people who don't know you will be consistent from session to session and all people will see you listed as the same name then in fact you now have player names by default just not ones you get to choose yourself at which point we may as well use the one you did pick.
It is an attempt to counter the Red/Blue designation. It would only partly mitigate the threat of NBSI, but a partial mitigation is better than none whatsoever.
There is no reason to counter the red blue designation. You first of all need to show reasons why this is beneficial before proposing solutions to the "problem"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think the appointed name system would work well at all.
You should be able to clarify your meaning by stating the subject rather than addressing your comment to the guy who may already be thinking of something else. /say "I disagree that x is great because it requires w."
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Goblin Squad Member
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One reason it would be beneficial to counter the NBSI system is to promote freedom of travel through lands un-owned. This is besides all the points devotees of NRDS would mention.
It is much easier to blend into a landscape without a neon sign arrow overhead pointing at you.
I wish to play the game and not be imprisoned in my settlement just because I'm not allied to you. I disagree that I should be forced to field an army against your forces just to explore. I do not wish to give you and your outfit the power to force me into war if I have a way around it. I would much rather conduct war for strategic reasons than be coerced into it at your whim. If reducing the benefit of the NBSI strategy helps me obtain my preferences I will promote it.
I do not buy into your proposition that your being able to conveniently whisper to a stranger outweighs these.
I don't think the appointed name system would work well at all.
You should be able to clarify your meaning by stating the subject rather than addressing your comment to the guy who may already be thinking of something else. /say "I disagree that x is great because is require w."
Which is just an unnecessary irritation because instead of typing a short sentence I have to type a longer one which is all well and good if I happen to be idling in a town but not so great if I am up to my armpits in goblins.
Thinking about the sort of chats I have in general a lot of them are often to answer people questions. If I have to type a long winded reply then frankly like most people I will just reply less because I can't be bothered. Names are useful and the problem you state it is to solve frankly isn't a problem in my view.
I suspect it also isn't a problem in most peoples view either because most of the objections I have seen is to the NBSI policy rather than NRDS where the concerns have been more on how to implement NRDS.
Your system as you admit will not limit NBSI usage in fact it actually makes NBSI ridiculously easy because you have now tagged all strangers automatically for us rather than us having to do anything
One reason it would be beneficial to counter the NBSI system is to promote freedom of travel through lands un-owned. This is besides all the points devotees of NRDS would mention.
I wish to play the game and not be imprisoned in my settlement just because I'm not allied to you. I disagree that I should be forced to field an army against your forces just to explore. I do not wish to give you and your outfit the power to force me into war if I have a way around it. I would much rather conduct war for strategic reasons than be coerced into it at your whim. If reducing the benefit of the NBSI strategy helps me obtain my preferences I will promote it.
I do not buy into your proposition that your being able to conveniently whisper to a stranger outweighs these.
Your system does not limit NBSI though it makes NBSI infinitely easier because you are pretagged as not blue. You do make NRDS harder which is the system you want people to use.
Anyway its pointless discussing it because it has a snowballs chance in hell of being implemented. I am sure Goblinworks are more than aware of how many people would be irritated by such a system.
It does limit NBSI unless you have no allies, in which case you are not a concern.
I can better travel unobserved if I do not have a big neon name floating over my head in your client.
Part of forming an alliance would be doing a meetup so everyone can exchange credentials. It really isnt difficult.
I am sure GW is interested in making a good game I am not sure why this is relevant though because this will irritate just as many people that they are hoping to attract. Bottom line people like being able to identify other players this is why few turn off floaty names and why if floaty names are off by default one of the first questions is how do I turn on floaty names.
I would suggest one market they are not particularly aiming at judging by past remarks is in fact the solo wanderer
Plus, Ryan has an added incentive: Steelwing strongly dislikes the idea and Steelwing is quite clever. He will reliably dislike whatever is not in his favor.
As I have pointed out it is easy enough to handle NBSI, just told you how to do it. You however will make NRDS harder to implement so a lot of settlements may just give it up as a bad idea and go NBSI. Was that your intent?
My objections are purely down to the social aspects of this. You are making general chat useless which means there will be many like me who will spend less time answering questions and basically giving the game an alive feel. All that to achieve as a solution for something which it won't even solve
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would work fine if I and my compatriots could turn off our nameplates at will from displaying on your client.
The more common route is to disable name display of others for yourself, and that isn't chosen, a waste, because there is no use for it outside of RP/'immersion'. What is uncommon is for the player to have the choice whether his nameplate is turned off for others.
You propose that stealth will leave the stealthed player's nameplate brightly identifying where he is? Unlikely. The code will be present anyway: no increased development cost to this solution.
Scouting and exploration is encouraged. It works for bandits and scouts. You can meet every one of your ally's characters if you like that will be fine. Your meetings will be quite frequent of course if your organizations are large and actively recruiting.
Meanwhile I get to travel and my liberty is increased.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't mind so much if names/affiliations are not hanging in the air above our heads. I would find it irritating if I can't place my cursor on a toon and at least see their reputation, their name, and their "state" relative to myself. Their reputation and their "state" are the most important to me in situations of possible danger or opportunity.
Unless criminal flags are very long and persistent, going to town and examining a "wanted" board to learn of local flagged is a waste of precious minutes and useless. If the flag is long term, it is perhaps workable. When hunting bounty targets, we are not talking about the hunter spending 16-20 hrs a day to find their target. Limited timer, limited playtime, limited overlap of "online" time intersection.
Those out traveling and harvesting or not generally out to kill anything that they see, should be able to spot an approaching character and see (at a glance) if they are criminal flagged or hostile or neutral. Those hunting specific people for PVP need to be able to see "states" and probably names (at least) at a glance. In real life, we all have unique looks. In an MMO (especially this one) many, many will look the same. The usual visual clues will not be there.
In close proximity or close chat situations, the usual audible clues that direct and attract our attention will not be available as they are in the real world.
It is an interesting idea, and parts of it I could go with, but I would not like having most of it as more than an option.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It shouldn't be an all or nothing proposition.
If you do spot someone, then I see no strong reason why you shouldn't be able to get some info from observation, say if you are a sentry in a watch tower or a guard at the gate or on the wall. After all if you do spot me trying to reach the frontier and that info isn't available you'll send a team out there to get what info you need anyway.
But you should have to actually spot someone to do so. If I'm a member of a core settlement and my settlement falls to the hordes, but every other settlement is out riding NBSI patrols in every hex they cannot rightly own, then it could be very important to blend into the landscape. For refugees to be able to have some chance at navigating to the frontier where he can join up with others to begin anew there should be a way to avoid the NBSI patrols.
I'm thinking every player should be able to turn off the display of his name/info tag in the client of others, unless maybe he is in what could be called a flagged state: outlaw, hostile, etc.. If you are guarding your town you would naturally want to investigate anyone with their info off that you see. But he should have a chance to exfiltrate the area unnoticed.
If he has a neon sign over his head his chances become vanishingly small.
Does convenience outweigh liberty in the River Kingdoms?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Does your convenience outweigh my freedom?
My answer would, in general, be no. There is no reason that a "neon sign" needs to hang over anyone's head against their will. The exception would maybe be if we choose to let it be so for ourselves to aid our group. Another would be a bounty or assassin hot on the trail of a target and with either a skill or some "info vehicle" hoop like a wanted poster or some little bit of leg work.
I don't mind so much if names/affiliations are not hanging in the air above our heads. I would find it irritating if I can't place my cursor on a toon and at least see their reputation, their name, and their "state" relative to myself. Their reputation and their "state" are the most important to me in situations of possible danger or opportunity.
That bolded info would only be available if I can see you already and "mouse over" your toon. I do not think that we are disagreeing much here. ;)
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Plus, Ryan has an added incentive: Steelwing strongly dislikes the idea and Steelwing is quite clever. He will reliably dislike whatever is not in his favor.
There are infinitely many things that are not in Steelwing's favor and also not in the best interest of Goblinworks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I said 'incentive', something that enhances the attractiveness of something. Armaggeddon is in neither of their favor, but that doesn't address whether a Ranger can sneak past an NBSI patrol.
I believe it would be a better game if a Ranger could sneak past an NBSI patrol. Do you disagree?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally if I was going to speak to someone I'd include written emotes in my chat bubble text.
*Looks the man over in green armour, her eyes seeming to linger on his defined muscles and great axe on his back, before flicking to meet his eyes with her own piercing green gaze* "Greetings stranger you may be just the man I need for a delicate mission?" *an amused smile flickers briefly on her heart-shaped face*