Chaos vs order, barbarian vs paladin.

[Claxon]

Ilja wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

An Archerdin Smiting a barbarian at range can kill him before he even gets close.

Maybe if the barbarian is chaotic evil. But it's a big maybe and depends heavily on level. Getting up a good speed is quite easy, and charge barbarians can deal an awful lot of damage, even after the nerfs. You know, BATTY BAT etc.

What nerfs? Did I miss something?

[Laif]

The black raven wrote:

The Paladin's role is to stay behind and fight the BBEG while the rest of the party escapes.

The Barbarian can do this too, but he will very likely die.

The Paladin just might live long enough to escape too.

I disagree, the role of the barb is to stay behind because he wants to smash the BBEG and he will do it. The little paladin just stall for time.

Ninjaedit: tha barbs are usually C/N so... smite that

[Grishnackh]

Aelryinth wrote:

The only game changer will be come and get me. No paladin can keep up with that level of Attacks of Opportunity.

Otherwise, making the weapon brilliant will mean every single one of the paladin's attacks is probably going to hit. Not missing ANY iteratives is extremely strong.

If the barb is Chaotic and evil, this gets even worse.

And the paladin can Smite with ranged attacks. An Archerdin Smiting a barbarian at range can kill him before he even gets close.

are we still talking high level?

in this case: my favorite non-mythic barbarian build doesn't have any AC to begin with so the paladin will hit with or without a brilliant weapon 76% of the time (cloak for 20% concealment + 95% chance to hit). he has a movementspeed of 70 feet with boots of haste, thats 140 feet charge range or -14 on perception checks for the paladin if he is ranged while nothing really stops a barbarian from having decent stealth checks. if the paladin is ranged, he'll propably go first, now lets assume he has spottet the barbarian at maximum charge range regardless of -14 perception. now what would be an average damage for high level archers? 12 (eadly shot) + 1d8 + 3d6 elemental damage from various enchants (actually he has 4 but the barbarian has elemental resistance against one) + 5 from enhancement bonus + lets say 8 from strength, thats 40 damage per arrow and he shoots 7 arrows total for 280 damage or 224 if you count in concealment (i dont count natural 1 because i dont count criticals, lets keep it simple) 300+ HP is no hard task for a barbarian (theres an item that lets you rage as an imediate action)
now its the barbarians turn... charge! lets say all in all 70% hitchance (this is conservative unless the barbarian is evil and was smited)
18 (PA) + 3d6 (large greatsword) + 24 or something from strength + 15 or something from raging brutality + 6 from enhancement bonus
thats 73,5
he makes attacks 367,5
70% chance to hit 257,25 damage
thats not as easy for a paladin to survive

now on the next turn the paladin can only make 1 attack for 40 damage that still doesnt kill the barbarian or he can try to fullattack in melee range and dies from the attack of opportunity

[Deadmanwalking]

Claxon wrote:

What nerfs? Did I miss something?

Iterative attacks with a lance, after the first, don't deal double damage. This was not always clear, so the errata/FAQ constitutes a nerf if you were thinking they did. That's the only one I know of, though.

[Aelryinth]

IF the barb is evil, you have to add Smite damage on there, and you're ignoring the probability of a crit. The number of attacks for the Paladin will likely be 7 (4 iterative, Rapid shot, Many Shot, Haste), and she probably has True Seeing or a variant going.

Without being evil, might not be enough to kill the barb.

If the barb is CE? At level 20? D8 +6d6 holy/lawful/merciful +12 Deadly Aim +5 Enhancement +20 Smite +5 Str, 19-20/x3 auto confirm crits. 7-44+ 42 x7? Ouch.

Just be glad he's not an undead, dragon, or evil outsider for double damage that first round.

The barb is probably going to miss his iteratives, because at the end of the round the paladin will drop bow and quickdraw shield, summon his sword to his hand, and be rocking that +10 Deflection bonus on top of things. He's going to take MUCH less damage then the barbarian.

If smite is active, he'll be dealing the barb more damage then the barb deals him, AND will be healing 80 HP or something as a swift action as he does so. Heck, he can shield bash and likely still hit the barb for smite damage!

i.e. Smite changes everything.

==Aelryinth

[rorek55]

Also let's not forget the spell that allows immediate use of LoH If health drops below 0. At 20 with fey foundling that's 10d6(60 HP) +20 from fey foundling.

At 20 paladin heals 80 a round. More if he took greater mercy. Also DR/10 evil. (Still find it odd that the stuff he is supposed to kill easily hurts him easily. Lol. Ah well.

You also forgot to add in divine favor. Also if barb is evil litany of righteousness for DOUBLE DAMAGE. If not evil. Eh. Harder fight.

[Laif]

you keep forgetting barb dr...
you keep the paladin making the on who atacks first
you keep making the paladin go in favorable position
and you keep forgetting that a barbarian first will sunder your weapon, then your armor and when you are stark naked he will sunder your face.
ME DON'T LIKE YOUR STINGY BLADE ME BREAK
ME DON'T LIKE YOUR SHINY ARMOR ME BREAK
ME DON'T LIKE YOU ME BREAK

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

Laif wrote:

The black raven wrote:

The Paladin's role is to stay behind and fight the BBEG while the rest of the party escapes.

The Barbarian can do this too, but he will very likely die.

The Paladin just might live long enough to escape too.

I disagree, the role of the barb is to stay behind because he wants to smash the BBEG and he will do it. The little paladin just stall for time.

Ninjaedit: tha barbs are usually C/N so... smite that

It's not smiting, but making his weapon Axiomatic and Flaming will add 3d6 damage every attack, so that will help.

[Zhayne]

I'd rather have a Barbarian in the party because they're easier to get along with.

[Imbicatus]

Barbarians tend hit people with giant sticks; Paladins tend to have giant sticks up their behinds.

[Zhayne]

Imbicatus wrote:

Barbarians tend hit people with giant sticks; Paladins tend to have giant sticks up their behinds.

Now I want to see a barbarian hit someone with a paladin.

[ShadowcatX]

Laif wrote:

you keep forgetting barb dr...

This is just fairly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

Quote:

you keep the paladin making the on who atacks first

The best paladin builds are archer builds. The best barbarian builds are melee. I think you can figure out for yourself why it is likely the paladin gets at least one full round attack before the barbarian.

[Aelryinth]

The Litany spells have to be cast on a target, and I didn't figure a paladin was going to be able to get past Superstitious saves.

If the paladin has his smite bonus going, getting past that to sunder his stuff is going to be nigh impossible. And remember, any weapon is usable for a smite. The paladin isn't bound to anything in particular.

Smite also bypasses DR, as does a Weapon with Bless Weapon on it.

==Aelryinth

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

Aelryinth wrote:

Smite also bypasses DR, as does a Weapon with Bless Weapon on it.

Bless Weapon only acts as +1 for purposes of bypassing DR, so the DR x/- that Barbarians have won't be overcome.

Honestly, my scimitar wielding, improved critical having, Paladin uses Bless Weapon to confirm crits more than anything.

Gone are the days when a blessed crossbow bolt were death to rakshasha, ahhh well.

[Claxon]

I think if the barbarian is evil the paladin is going to win easily.

If the barbarian is CN or NN I think it swings hard in the favor of the barbarian. Not being able to utilize smite will make a big difference in damage. If the barbarian is an invulnerable rager he may be able to negate much of an archer paladins damage unless they possess clustered shot. If the paladin and barbarian both are in melee Come and Get Me will be a huge boon to the barbarian.

At high levels, combat is very swingy. In a 1 v 1 like this whoever goes first and is in range will likely win.

[Serious Frog]

ShadowcatX wrote:

Laif wrote:

you keep forgetting barb dr...

This is just fairly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

Quote:

you keep the paladin making the on who atacks first

The best paladin builds are archer builds. The best barbarian builds are melee. I think you can figure out for yourself why it is likely the paladin gets at least one full round attack before the barbarian.

I detest the fact that a Paladin of Iomadae would cast his honor in the dirt to use a bow. I have not yet met a barbarian I cannot best evil or good. If I cannot lead said savage to the light of my faith by sweet litany, then I may pummel said savage to the light.

[Imbicatus]

Serious Frog wrote:

ShadowcatX wrote:

Laif wrote:

you keep forgetting barb dr...

This is just fairly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

Quote:

you keep the paladin making the on who atacks first

The best paladin builds are archer builds. The best barbarian builds are melee. I think you can figure out for yourself why it is likely the paladin gets at least one full round attack before the barbarian.

I detest the fact that a Paladin of Iomadae would cast his honor in the dirt to use a bow. I have not yet met a barbarian I cannot best evil or good. If I cannot lead said savage to the light of my faith by sweet litany, then I may pummel said savage to the light.

If the bow is good enough for Ol' Deadeye, it's good enough for me. I may not be in some high falutin kightly order. But when the orcs are coming to your home, you put them down before they get a chance to hurt your kinfolk.

[Zhayne]

Serious Frog wrote:

I detest the fact that a Paladin of Iomadae would cast his honor in the dirt to use a bow.

Lolwut?

[Aelryinth]

Aye, I mean, like, the Queen of Mendev is casting her honor in the dirt? Probably the most famous paladin of Iomadae in the game, leader of the nation leading the fight against the worldwound for the past century?

Not to mention every paladin taking the holy archer archetype...

==Aelryinth

[Laif]

ShadowcatX wrote:

Laif wrote:

you keep forgetting barb dr...

This is just fairly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

Quote:

you keep the paladin making the on who atacks first

The best paladin builds are archer builds. The best barbarian builds are melee. I think you can figure out for yourself why it is likely the paladin gets at least one full round attack before the barbarian.

THA MIGHT' PALADIN DONT FIGHT? HE COWARD AND TRECHORUS

Well, seriously we are talking about paladins and barbarians in general, don't go with especific builds, the paladin will probably win if the barb is X/E but if it's X/N the paladin is pretty much....screwed.
If we start to mix archetypes... well this will be a mess.

[AM OTHER BARBARIAN]

Laif wrote:

AM DON'T LIKE YOUR POKEY STICK. AM BREAK.

AM DON'T LIKE YOUR SHINY TIN CAN. AM BREAK.
AM DON'T LIKE YOU CASTY. AM SMASH.
AM DON'T LIKE YOU AT ALL. AM SMASH.

AM FIX WHAT BARBARIAN AM "SUH-POHSD" TO TALK LIKE. OTHER TALK AM TALK OF NOT-BARBARIAN, AND WHEN AM NOT-BARBARIAN, AM NOT GOOD SMASH. BUT AM FORGIVE YOU, AS YOU AM NOT-BARBARIAN, BUT AM WANT BE BARBARIAN.

BUT AM NOT CARE, AS AM BARBARIAN, AND BARBARIAN AM SMASH ALL "PALLYDINS," AS "PALLYDINS" AM CASTIES, AND BARBARIAN AM SMASH ALL CASTIES. AM NOT CARE IF IN PRETTY CLOTHES OR SHINY TIN CAN, AM STILL SMASH, AS AM BARBARIAN.

AM ALSO KNOW "PALLYDINS" ONLY AM GOOD AT SMASH BADDIES. "PALLYDINS" AM NOT SO GOOD AT SMASH NOT-BADDIES, AS "PALLYDINS" AM NOT BARBARIAN. AM ALSO KNOW "PALLYDIN" AS CASTY AM MAKE BARBARIAN SMASH "PALLYDIN" BETTER THAN NOT-CASTY FIGHTY.

AM BARBARIAN KNOW "BARBARIAN SKIN" ONLY AM NOT AS GOOD AGAINST NOT-BARBARIAN FIGHTY THAT AM TAKE FIGHTY-ONLY FEAT, BUT WHEN AM TAKE FIGHTY-ONLY FEAT, AM NOT GET RID OF ALL BARBARIAN SKIN.

AM ALSO KNOW BARBARIAN AM DUMB IF AM BADDY, AS BARBARIAN AM BETTER WHEN NOT BADDY. BARBARIAN AM BEST WHEN AM NOT GOODY TWO-SHOES OR BADDY. BARBARIAN AM ONLY CARE ABOUT SMASH. WHY AM GOOD OR BAD IF AM ONLY CARE ABOUT NOT-GOOD AND NOT-BAD THING?

AM ALSO KNOW "PALLYDINS" AM NO MATCH AGAINST BARBARIAN LIKE "AM BARBARIAN," SO AM LAUGH AT "PALLYDINS" SHOOTING AT BARBARIAN WITH POINTY STICKS.