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I have been kicking this idea around for a while, I thought I'd run it past these boards and see what those here thought of it. Isn't it a bit weird that only races that are core PC races have subraces? Especially given that those races are particularly long-lived, peaceful and highly civilized? It seems like they are the ones least likely to give rise to new offshoot species. So I was thinking... why not subraces for others?
Orcs - This was done to a fairly nice degree in D&D 3rd Edition in Races of Faerun. But they were still tied to saying that the default PHB Orc was 100% correct-- a problem I understand is true in Pathfinder as well kind of limiting the ability to be particularly creative. Anyway, with some slight changes I think here is what we could do for them.
Deep Orc - These guys hail back to the 1st edition Orcs. They are creatures that live almost exclusively underground-- in fact, they have very good night vision and a sharp sense of smell, but being exposed to open light hurts their eyes. They are shorter than humans, but built in a stocky manner that causes them to weigh considerably more. They have larger, pointer ears than other Orcs and generally have grayish skin. They are a big more technically savy than other Orc types and regularly make use of armor and well-constructed weapons. They tend to be more orderly (lawful) than other Orcs, their society built on rigid obedience to the chief, who is generally the eldest in the tribe since experience and treachery can overcome youth and enthusiasm. In the Underdark they are known as true terrors, a constant plague upon the other races there who take what they want, including slaves which they occasionally eat when times are lean. To surface dwellers, they are known as nightmares that rise out of the darkness and lay siege to a town, looting, pillaging, raping and killing everything before them, leaving the town burning down to ash before disappearing back into the darkness. These tribes are usually devoted to some dark god or another and clerics are common among them as sorcerers.
Mountain Orc - These ones are the most rugged of the three types. They live out in the most horrendous of landscapes-- icy tundras that would sap the life from lesser peoples in mere days, but somehow they are able to survive there from birth. They have grayish-bluish-greenish skin, stand about the same height as a human and are much more heavily built with thick layers of hair, muscle and fat to keep them warm. They are masters of survival, able to survive in a region that has little to no food to speak of. They can and will eat or drink anything without any notable negative effects. They live in small nomadic tribes that allow their members considerable freedom, allowing them to be mostly self-reliant and only show as much loyalty to their tribes as is beneficial to them. They are often led by a shaman who claim to be able to speak to the spirits of the earth and of the dead, though the strongest warrior among them has almost equal say in decisions. Beyond shamans, any spellcasters among them are rare. Combat for Mountain Orcs takes on two forms-- first, they receive a lot of attention and praise for being able to take down the largest prey or the most challenging opponent making this the fastest way to excel in their society. They tend to wear only heavy hides cut from the large animals that their tribe has brought down and use crudely made axes which serve as survival tools as well as weapons. Yet, despite their lack of technology, they somehow have the willpower to bring down the largest of beasts. Second, because they are primarily concerned with their own survival, anyone crosses paths with their tribe is likely to be killed and whatever their carrying taken for the benefit of the tribe members.
Lowland Orc - These Orcs make their homes out in the opens plains and forests. They are the tallest and most athletic of the three. With grayish-green skin, they tower over humans and are generally stronger as well. They also tend to be covered with scars and missing eyes or hands are hardly infrequent among them, though it hardly seems to slow them down. What they have in raw physicality is generally lost in mental capacity. They are raging warriors who love nothing more than combat. They are usually led by a warchief, the strongest, fittest, most skilled warrior among them, although the warchief usually heeds advice from a council of advisers made up of the elders and the shamans. These Orcs seem eager to throw themselves against any worthy competitor and have a weird code of honor that seems to have less to do with loyalty and honesty and more to do with integrity. Orcs are expected to obey unless they think they have the strength to challenge those above them, in which case they may do so at any time. No one rules these tribes for very long at all and the new chiefs hardly feel obligated to continue any agreements the previous ones made. These tribes are often devoted to some dark god, but some instead pay heed to numerous animal and nature totems. Although the tribes might stake out some sort of home, particularly if they have managed to seize something from another race, their eagerness to take on the next challenge usually drives them on a nearly constant campaign of terror and destruction. Although they don't make much in the way of armor or weapons for themselves, they are skilled at constructing boats and wagons to carry them from place to place. In addition, those who have been successful as brigands and raiders have often scrapped together some sort of clothing and armor made up of pieces torn from the corpses of their victims and arm themselves with weapons seized from the hands of those who dared to face them. Although they do loot their enemies, they otherwise tend to show a certain amount of respect for vanquished foes, particularly those that put up a good fight. But this might only be because the better a foe an Orc can claim to have defeated, the better they look to their peers. These Orcs are usually the parents of most Half-Orc and also the one that most humans make alliances and wars with since encounters with the others are far less frequent.
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For Goblins, I think taking some inspiration from WarHammer Fantasy might be good. Although their Goblins have a vastly different origin, I think they have done a good job of dividing them into subraces. So that was my inspiration here.
Forest Goblins - The most "fae"-like of the Goblins, they bear some similarities with Wood Elves. They share an inexplicable kinship with predators of the wilds and can, without any real training or effort, get large, vicious predators to cooperate with them. They are commonly seem on the backs of wolves, bears, giant bats, giant spiders and so forth. They are also able to extract venom from giant poisonous creatures such as spiders and snakes that they use to coat their weapons. They live in semi-nomadic tribes that usually call one forest their home. They have greenish skin, longer noses and larger ears than other goblins. They are wonderful scouts and surprisingly skilled hunters, able to find enough to eat within their homes without any need for farming. They are incredibly stealthy, able to disappear into the wilds without leaving a trace. They use this in their typical combat style of hitting and running-- usually striking a person or group that invades or threatens their territory long enough to slay a few stragglers and poison the others before drawing back and letting their enemy weaken before hitting them again. They primarily make use of shortbows, spears and shields, all fairly crudely made from the materials gathered in their forests. They generally have next to no skill with technology or metal-working and don't really grasp the concept of trade since everything in their society is held collectively. They have only the crudest of writing systems which consists of simple symbols that they might scrawl onto trees to warn others. Although not all Forest Goblins in a single forest necessarily belong to the same tribe, they tend to cooperate with other tribes rather than war with them. Their tribes are usually led by a particularly powerful shaman or druid who is able to shape and bend to the forest to his or her whims and generally have a religion devoted to various animal totems.
Cavern (Night) Goblins - These are particularly nasty little buggers live in caves and passages, emerging only at night. They have slimy, yellowish-greenish-grayish skin and usually have jagged teeth and big yellow eyes. They can see perfectly well in caverns. They tend to be both more savage and more civilized than the other tribes. They are particularly merciless and cut-throat and the only one of the three to regularly enslave or devour other races-- or even their own. As opposed to the others, they tend to really stake out a single location as their "home" and defend it from outsiders, making them quite good with traps and war tactics. They farm food for themselves, generally consisting of various fungus and moss, but they also raise lifestock. They also keep spiders which spin silk and they weave clothing from it and they mine metals with which to make their weapons. They are skilled at brewing up nasty little toxins which they make regular use of against their enemies. Of all the goblin types, they seem to have the least regard for their own personal safety, more than willing to destroy themselves to destroy enemies of the tribe. They are led by the most vicious and cut-throat one among them with no care given to bloodline or background. No one would cross the chief because the chief has ears everywhere and doesn't hesitate to kill others for having doubts, failure or even hesitating on orders. The chief is considered to own everything in the tribe, down to the lives of the members. More than the others, they are masters of stealth and subterfuge, attacking people from the shadows with sword and dagger before disappearing back into them as another attacks the target from another direction. They emerge from their caves at night to sneak into town and cut the throats of people in their sleep before stealing their belongings and children for nefarious reasons. To those who live in the underdark, these goblins are either particularly hated or looked on as mere rats. Dwarfs and Gnomes battle them to their last breath and just about everyone else enslaves them whenever they have a chance-- for at least these Goblins know how to obey. These tribes are usually devoted to some dark, sinister god of the chief's preference and both clerics and mages are relatively common among them.
Hill Goblins - What would become of hill goblins without the presence of other races is a worthy question. They are small, have yellow-brown skin and seem to leech off of other races. In the instances they can avoid being enslaved by some Hobgoblin, Ogre, Orc and just about anyone else larger than them, they tend to make their homes not far from the cities and villages of others. There they live off the trash that other peoples create, able to make working equipment, armor and weapons from seemingly worthless scrap. As soon as they are well armed they tend to become brigands and thieves, stealing and raiding everything they can in order to help their tribes grow. They tend to be extremely sneaky, since the tribes survival depends on the members not being seen or heard and be able to get back home without being tracked. Although they are not strictly speaking nomadic, Hill Goblin camps tend not to last very long before someone larger comes stomping in and crushes them causing the tribe to flee towards a new hiding place. The tribes tend to be led by the biggest among them, somehow size being the determining factor of worth among the tribe. In some ways, they could be said to have more proper civilized traits than the others-- they are more willing to speak in friendly terms than their peers, but usually only do so when they are trying to get someone from another race and are particularly devious, clever and difficult to catch in a lie. They understand trade and will engage in it frequently, including trade of their skills to those who might hire them, although those who make deals with Goblins tend to regret it as often as not. In fact, more open and accepting townships might even turn a Goblin tribe around from being an infestation problem to being citizens who manage to contribute about as much as the problems they cause. However this is the exception rather than the rule.
Hill Goblin tribes usually devote themselves to a religion that is similar to whatever the larger peoples around them are engaged in, although their version of it is usually twisted and misguided. Sometimes they will end up worshiping dark gods, dragons, demons or other powerful beings who promise them a better live and do so with slavish devotion. Because of this, shamans and clerics are not uncommon among them, although mages are extraordinarily rare. However, oddities being born among them is hardly uncommon and both sorcerers and naturally psychics occur once in a thousand births-- which makes them more common than one might at first think.
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The last race I would like to tackle for now is the Hobgoblin. In this case I can't cite any particular inspiration beyond simply how they have been represented in various editions and artwork.
Slate Hobgoblins - These Hobgoblins live entirely underground, although they could very well emerge from there if they wanted to. They stand amount the same height as humans and tend to have gray skin. They have faces that tend to resemble wrinkled toads. They care far less about integrity or loyalty than the other Hobgoblins, respecting one who can be treacherous, underhanded and cruel above all else. They are very civilized, usually taking over abandoned homes of dwarfs or drow who were driven out for various reasons and improving them. They are led by lords or ladies, although the position tends not to be passed on through lineage-- instead, it is quite common for one's rule to end in assassination as another takes over. They have loyalty to their lord or clan only so far as it benefits them and it isn't uncommon for one who thinks they can take over an Orc or Goblin tribe to simply leave without notice. These Hobgoblins regularly make pacts with other evil denizens of the darkness and will, at least, generally keep to any treaties or agreements made so long as they don't become too burdensome. Unlike Orcs and Goblins that live underground, they show very little interest in making their way to the surface to raid those who live there meaning that one tends to only encounter them if one dares to delve into the darkness. But, within their own world, they seek to dominate it by enslaving those around them. They are skilled miners, metal workers and craftsman, able to make the finest armor and weapons for themselves. They make constant war with Dwarfs and Gnomes in order to put them in chains and work them to death in hard labor. They regularly make use of sneaky, underhanded warfare tactics that would make other Hobglbin types balk. Although, as a rule, they do not eat other humanoids, they don't at all shy away from selling people to others to be eaten. These tribes are usually devoted to some dark god, but rarely powerful evil beings as they would rather be treated as equals by anything less than a deity.
Crimson Hobgoblins - These are the biggest of the Hobgoblin races. They are usually around 6'6", although being taller-- sometimes even quite taller, is not unusual. They have large, powerful bodies, regularly rivaling if not surpassing Orcs. They have dusky red skin and blue noses are regularly seen among them. They tend to have thick black hair, yellow or red eyes and faces that resemble those of bulldogs and their bodies that of gorillas. They are a race that prides itself on war and is utterly incapable of keeping peace with anyone for too long. They regularly cooperate with, if not take charge of, Lowland Orcs, Ogres, Hill Goblins and a menagerie of various other races. Although they thrill in battle, their aim is often to force all the world to submit to their will. They fight in a very controlled manner, using formations and facing enemies head-on. They are bigger, tougher and faster than most and delight in making other people admit it, however they aren't above using their brains to overcome bigger or stronger opponents. Although they are capable of craft, their technology tends to be fairly crude and they usually force those who are smaller to create their weapons and armor for them, preferring to focus themselves on being the best warriors they can. Tribes are led by whomever has proven themselves the greatest warrior among their tribe and every Hobgoblin knows their current rank in the pecking order. They know how to intimidate those lesser than them into doing what they want and rarely care for any sort of niceties. They are strictly and fiercely loyal to their tribe and will generally respect those of authority outside of them, but they generally don't feel compelled to be too terribly honest or forthright in their dealings with others. Their tribes are usually devoted to some sort of dark god, although having no religion at all and instead focusing themselves on the physical world is also not uncommon. When they need to, they will work for a greater force than themselves and be entirely loyal to it, but will also seek a high place in the command. Beyond making alliances, they don't care much for trade or production. Instead they just take what they want from whomever is too small, weak and meek to stop them. This means that the lowest ones from the lowest tribes are likely to have nothing more than leather armor and crudely made weapons, but the highest ranking ones among great warlords are likely to wear the heaviest of armors custom made for their frames and be armed with the finest weapons they found find. Although priests and mages are not necessarily uncommon among them, those who would undertake such pursuits usually find they need to still try to compete physically with their peers or face a very short life indeed. In fact, their use of magic tends to be limited narrowly to what is immediately helpful in combat.
Gamboge Hobgoblins - The difference between the height of these Hobgoblins over humans is about the same as humans over elves. They fall somewhere between the size of the Slate and the Crimson kind. They have athletic, lean bodies, large lupine-like ears and mouths filled with sharp tiger-like teeth. They have yellow-orange skin and usually brown or red eyes. They are the most honorable and civilized of the three subraces. They care more than anything about keeping their word and fulfilling their duties, never betraying alliances or masters even when all is lost. They have impressive willpower and their skill in battle is reknowned-- a few hundred of them are worth a thousand men when they are outnumbered with their backs against the wall protecting something they have sworn an oath to defend. They are skilled metal workers, although they don't do much in the way of mining meaning they either have to trade or win metal in wars. They are particularly good at making blades which they are particularly proud of. Their armor skills seem to reach only chain and scale, but the highest ranking ones are known to decorate their armor elaborately. Gamboge Hobgoblins prefer to live out on islands or on plains near rivers. They fish and grow potatoes, rice and other goods for food and as trade goods, although as soon as they have the strength to do so they tend to conquer and enslave other humanoids in their area to do the real work for them. They are masters of battle and while some become scouts, merchants, scholars and other pursuits, spell-casters of any sort are fairly rare among them. They instead focus their intellectual pursuits on battle tactics. Although they are willing to strike up alliances with other races, they do pride themselves on being their abilities to handle battles and usually a clan aims to conquer all around them and appoint themselves as nobles above all others. They tend not to worship any gods, instead having a philosophy of fulfilling one's role in the world and keeping one's honor intact resulting in a good afterlife without naming a deity that particularly promises to fulfill this. The tribes tend to pass on the mantle of lord along a bloodline, but the role of leadership doesn't necessarily go to the oldest and the children of a deceased leader tend to fight viciously among one another until one comes out on top and the others lay dead or have fled. But once the new lord has been chosen, all others are loyal to death to this lord. Because this kind regularly competes with humans over land and because humans tend to have more allies and be more technologically advanced, a lot of Gamboge Hobgoblin fiefdoms tend not to last too long after growing too large too quickly and drawing the ire of their neighbors. Those that survive the destruction of their clans, and don't take their lives from the shame of the failure, tend to become mercenaries who regularly work for the highest bidders without raising many moral objections about the jobs they undertake. And because they will carry out the most wicked of plans and yet be honest and forthright in their dealings with the person who hires them, they are highly sought after by people without the best of intentions. In fact, because these Hobgoblins are seen so much more often as mercenaries than they are as intact tribes, many people think all yellow-skinned Hobgoblins are inherently mercenaries.
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Anyway, I don't know how these would be differentiated in the Pathfinder system without turning them all into higher CR or ECL creatures. I think the versions of these currently in Pathfinder tend to be too much all about the attributes and one big skill to leave me much flexibility in customization.... but... maybe someone could give me some ideas?
Dotting for sheer fantasticalness.
Isn't this concept suggested in the races themselves? For example under kobolds there's an alternate race trait called the Wild Forest Kobold where they lose Crafty and pick up +2 on Perception and Survival plus Stealth and Survival are always class skills.
Under some of the PC races it suggests bundling these alternate traits together to make new subraces. I submit to you: the Briarbile Kobold
Briarbile kobolds are a curiosity among their race. These creatures long ago adapted to life on the surface among the dense thickets of the Mosswood in service to their God-Queen Mylgoriax. These draconic pests have developed a natural tolerance for daylight (Day Raider trait) and honed their skills in their woodland environment (Wild Forest Kobold). While most retain their hardy, armored scales a select few develop thinner skin which, though not as armored as their kin proves resilient to acid (Dragon-Scaled trait). These kobolds, known among the Briarbile as the Transcendent, are thought to be closer to their goddess and thus are inducted into the clergy for some function whether as guards, spies, clerics or prophets.
The Briarbiles generally live by hunting and foraging but they are far from savages. Their lawful tendencies and use of magic promotes a culture of organization, skill and community. There is a rigorous caste system and hierarchy with the clergy at the top. These kobolds like so many others however have resorted to base thievery to gather what few resources they lack on their own. For this, and to satisfy their Mylgoriax' insatiable greed they act as brigands along the forest paths and roads (Briar Bandit [Forest] racial trait). They are highly adept at using the dense trees and thickets in defense of their lair; while some of their number are trained as rangers most learn the basics of "Copi Seg Inghesui". Roughly translated to the common tongue this means "crowds between trees" and reflects the Briarbile tenet that by squeezing among the thickets you use them as your defense as well as any trap (Suck In Your Gut [Any] racial trait).
Fast, light, and stealthy the Briarbile are as deadly as their underground kin. What's worse, they travel by day with the eyesight of the elves. They are highly skilled at sensing their prey and their ambushes are as legendary as the traps laid by fellow cousins in caves. These kobolds are truly frightening and have earned a begrudging respect by the Mosswood Rangers, despite being one of that organization's most hated enemies.
Hmm... well, I suppose that is a decent example for Kobolds. But what would I do with the 9 I have posted here.
How to differentiate the Cavern Orc from the Lowland Orc or the Crimson Hobgoblin from the Gamboge Hobgoblin or the Forest Goblin from the Hill Goblin?
I don't have many skill points to work with for those races and they don't have any feats to switch out like the Kobolds do.
Ok... challenge accepted. Let's see...
Not enough time to work on this right now. I'll pull something together and post it up here. There is a con' in my area this weekend so I might not post anything right away. I think we can mash up something really cool for the 9 you have, and many more besides!
Oh! Now this is interesting. I have tried stuff of this sort, but I much prefer the way you're starting.
I have always thought goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears were already subraces.
dot!
Maybe some Gnolls, Troglodytes, Sahuagin (etc) are in order?
I figure it might help if I lay out some ideas of how they function in different fields.
Deep Orcs
Combat Style: General. Although their understanding of tactics is poor, they aren't above utilizing stealth and cunning as well as raw brutality when dealing with others. They don't shy away from using ranged as well as melee.
Profession & Craft: They have respectable skills in this field, particularly when compared to other Orc types. They mine raw materials, make their own metals and probably produce their own food and raid others primarily as surplus.
Wilderness Survival: They don't really get along by themselves in the middle of no where any better than humans do.
Magic: Mages are not utterly unthinkable among them, but primarily they use divine magic granted my some sort of dark god.
Dealing with Outsiders: They can kind of, sort of get along with other evil cave dwelling races, but otherwise... no. Just... no.
Senses: They are at home in caves and emerge only at night. They can navigate complete darkness as good as anyone, whether they is by seeing or sense of smell. They don't do well in day light.
Alignment Tendancies: Chaotic Evil/Neutral Evil
Likely Classes: Fighter, Cleric, Rogue
Mountain Orcs
Combat Style: They will probably sneak up on a quarry when initiating a battle, but beyond the initial strike it is all straight raw brutality. They try to overpower others and brush off wounds that would cripple anyone else.
Profession & Craft: Extremely poor. They can stitch together some pelts, but that's about it. They get their food from hunting and gathering, they don't make much of anything and they don't engage in mining or metal working.
Wilderness Survival: Extreme. They can get along fine in the worst environments, particularly snowing environments. They can somehow hunt and gather enough to keep both their massive bodies and their children's well nourished.
Magic: Shamans are a big part of their culture but that is literally all the magic one can expect from these big beasty people.
Dealing with Outsiders: Poor. They don't nearly go out of their way to war with other peoples like other Orc kinds do, but they don't interact with outsiders in any positive way either.
Senses: They probably make their homes in caves during their nomadic travels. Between these, the glaring light on the snow and the regular snowstorms they deal with, they probably have poor eyesight but a sense of smell that more than makes up for it, which is probably how they find food.
Alignment Tendancies: Chaotic Evil/Chaotic Neutral
Likely Classes: Barbarian, Ranger, Shaman
Lowland Orcs
Combat Style: Raging, nasty, in-your-face combat with them literally racing at their enemies screaming at the top of their lungs and smashing everything in sight.
Profession & Craft: Relatively poor. They live off of raiding and just about everything they have comes from being raiders. They can make yurts, boats and wagons, they can fit together pieces of armor that they have taken, but otherwise they don't engage in these businesses much at all. Without other peoples to take things from, they would be in poor shape.
Wilderness Survival: Decent. Again, they are in poor shape if they can't raid others, but their small tribes are able to generally "live off the land" even in such circumstances. An Orc cut off by himself in the middle of the woods might be a bit better off than your typical city dweller.
Magic: They have clerics and shamans, but they aren't a big part of their culture like with the Mountain Orcs. Mages, Bards, Sorcerers are rather rare among them to say the least, but maybe not nearly as much so as Mountain Orcs.
Dealing with Outsiders: Hard to say... they seem to be able to get along with other evil peoples bent on destruction and they can generally forge some sort of temporary alliance with even people. When their tribes are broken down, they can be turned into farmers or manual labor in human cities and such, but... really? They don't engage in trade, they don't deal with people peacefully and they probably use their size and strength to merely boss others around.
Senses: The don't spend any time in caves or underground as a rule. They live out in the open and free. Can they get around better at night? Perhaps... maybe like the Mountain Orc, it really has more to do with their sense of smell their ability to see but theirs is just not nearly as fine-tuned.
Alignment Tendancies: Chaotic Evil/Unaligned
Likely Classes: Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue
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Forest Goblin
Combat Style: Ambush style, using poison, nature magic, and animals liberally rather than attack directly except when mounted and using spears.
Profession & Craft: Not a strong suit. They can craft wood to make the tools and weapons they need, they can skin animals and make armor, but that's the extent of it. They can tame animals and extract milk and poison from them, but I'm not sure that counts given it has more to do with their animal kinship.
Wilderness Survival: Quite good. They are at home in the wilds and would have a much better chance of making it there alone than any human would. They can get more than enough food for themselves and others, find shelter and live freely.
Magic: Very strong when it comes to nature magic-- shamans and druids are relatively common among them. But arcane magic? Divine magic? It just isn't something they deal with.
Dealing with Outsiders: No. Okay, maybe they can marginally get along with Forest Gnomes and Spriggans and maybe, MAYBE, certain subraces of Elves... but anyone who doesn't belong in the forest is their enemy and they are extremely territorial. They don't even try to reach out to outsiders peacefully.
Senses: Forests are quite dark, especially at night, and that is exactly when they thrive the most. While they don't travel around underground, they are as at home in the darkness as an owl or bat. But.. maybe that has to do with their big ears.
Alignment Tendancies: Neutral Evil/True Neutral
Likely Classes: Ranger, Druid, Rogue
Night Goblins
Combat Style: Masters of stealth, love to use slicing weapons and poisons to kill people when they are most vulnerable. They use the darkness as their ally and cover.
Profession & Craft: Not terribly good. They can mine well enough to get some materials to make their blades and maybe some basic crude armor, but that's the extent of it. They don't erect structures and while they do farm food and keep livestock, it is things that are easy to grow/keep and no one else would want to eat.
Wilderness Survival: They don't do terribly well on their own. They would probably be in pretty bad shape if left alone in the middle of the wild. They need others.
Magic: They have clerics since they are prone to worshipping things bigger than them. They don't have wizards, primarily because they can't keep books. Maybe some of those born with natural spellcasting abilities could be born among them, though they would be seen as oddities and probably treated badly.
Dealing with Outsiders: Terrible. No one likes them and while they can be enslaved into being good little workers, they don't get along with anyone on their own.
Senses: They are absolute masters of the darkness and excel the darker things become rather than it hampering them any.
Alignment Tendancies: Neutral Evil/Chaotic Evil
Likely Classes: Rogue, Fighter, Cleric
Hill Goblins
Combat Style: Mass numbers and stealth/ambush tactics to bring people down. And even then, combat is not where they excel.
Profession & Craft: They are surprisingly keen in this regard. Even though they don't mine resources for themselves, they can piece together what they need from the meagerest of scraps. Who knows what they could do if they had the strength or peace necessary to truly focus on this natural affinity.
Wilderness Survival: They tend to live under the foot of others and depend on others in their tribe to quite a degree. They might be able to get along when left in the middle of the woods by themselves, but their chances would be marginally better than a humans at best.
Magic: They can have clerics or wizards, but their circumstances tend to mean they don't excel in these regards. However, those who are spontaneously born as spell casters to appear among them.
Dealing with Outsiders: Considerably better than one might think. Although no one respects them, they are killed without regard and they often end up as slaves, they are quite open to outsiders and manage to get along with those who are the most difficult to get along with by being weak, agreeable and malleable. They also excel as trade when given a chance, though they tend to be untrustworthy in their dealings... not that it seems to hamper them much.
Senses: They do well in the darkness. They spend most of their life in hiding anyway. Would they do as well 20' under the ground traveling through an unlit tunnel as a dwarf? I don't know.. somehow I doubt it, but...
Alignment Tendancies: Neutral Evil/Unaligned
Likely Classes: Rogue, Bard, Fighter
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Slate Hobgoblins
Combat Style: Tactical, stealth, trickery and misdirection.
Profession & Craft: Respectable. They can mine, they craft armor and weapons, they can grow food... yes, they would prefer to use slave labor to do most of this, but they are directing it.
Wilderness Survival: Poor. They are very civilized and conniving, being left alone in the middle of the wilds would leave them... wanting to say the least.
Magic: They are considerably better off than other Hobgoblin types in this regard. They actively use arcane magic for more than just direct battle and they make good use of clerics.
Dealing with Outsiders: They are politically savvy enough to deal with Drow and Illithid. But beyond dealing with evil dark-dwelling humanoids they just.. don't. They enslave those who are too wild to be dealt with otherwise and slay outsiders without mercy.
Senses: They get along perfectly fine underground and rarely ever emerge. I don't know if they would receive a penalty for fighting in bright light, but... who knows?
Alignment Tendancies: Lawful Evil/Neutral Evil
Likely Classes: Fighter, Rogue, Wizard
Crimson Hobgoblins
Combat Style: Domination. They will get up close and personal and use their unbreakable wills and bodies to force others to submit. What is worse-- they will cooperate collectively when doing this.
Profession & Craft: Well... not as bad as Orc? They don't make much on their own, they don't need to. They can collect others and command them to make things for them. They make use of structures constructed by others rather than making their own.
Wilderness Survival: Generally poor. Without someone else handling the finer details, they would probably struggle. This isn't to say they might not be marginally better off than a civilized human, but.. they wouldn't be all that much better.
Magic: They have clerics, but... well... the occasional cleric or even wizard just isn't going to excel so much in those areas as those of other races. They are forced to devote too much of themselves towards keeping up with the others athletically.
Dealing with Outsiders: Kind of... blah. They dominate and enslave others. They are more than savvy enough to get dumber and more savage humanoids to obey them and do what they say and they can make alliances with other evil beings in order to destroy a greater good... and they are probably the ones leading any evil horde, but ultimately... so-so.
Senses: Who is to say? I imagine they would get along perfectly well at night and they probably do make their homes underground. So... maybe they can see in complete darkness, but aren't so specialized that light bothers them.
Alignment Tendancies: Lawful Evil/Unaligned
Likely Classes: Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger
Gamboge Hobgoblins
Combat Style: Tactical combat and keeping their moral high as they face their enemies in a direct way, using swiftness, endurance and skill to take down enemies.
Profession & Craft: Probably the best of the three. They create their own structures, they craft their own weapons (excelling) and armor (limited), and farm their own food. They might be marginally worse than humans, but not so much so.
Wilderness Survival: This isn't an area of specialization for them. They'd probably do as badly as humans if abandoned in the middle of the woods alone.
Magic: They don't have specialized spellcasters or priests for various social reasons. Hybrids, sure. In fact, Bards and something akin to Paladins would likely not be unusual at all.
Dealing with Outsiders: Considerably better than the others. While they would prefer to dominate the world and get everyone to submit to their will and become serfs, they can deal with outsiders-- even those who don't match their alignment-- without issue. They can get along with both good and evil and they are known for keeping their word.
Senses: Well, they don't spend any time underground so they aren't at home there. They probably get around at night just fine.
Alignment Tendancies: Lawful Evil/Lawful Neutral
Likely Classes: Fighter, Bard, Paladin
Are we actually talking about the Monstrous Humanoid type, or Humanoids from the bad side of the alignment spectrum here?
I'm wary of introducing many new subtypes because it messes up a Ranger's Favored Enemy choices. But adding more monsters per subtype would actually be a very good thing; if your FE is Humanoid(Orc), then having more than one flavor of orc in the game is cool.
Advanced Race Guide has alternate racial traits for orcs, goblins, and hobgoblins, as well as kobolds and a number of other humanoid races. They're a pretty good place to start with mechanical variations for sub-races, basically swapping out one racial ability for a new replacement based on the character's environment.
The way elven subraces "work" in Pathfinder is that they're just sets of alternate racial traits, swapping standard stuff for the alternates. Each alternate trait specifies which standard trait(s) it replaces.
--Artic elf is a standard elf with the darkvision, desert runner, and elemental resistance alternate racial traits.
--Dusk elf is a standard elf with the arcane focus, darkvision, dreamspeaker, and silent hunter alternate racial traits.
--Savage elf is a standard elf with the eternal grudge and fleet-footed alternate racial traits.
--Tower elf is a standard elf with the arcane focus and urbanite alternate racial traits.
Drow have their own set of alternate racial traits.
Ascalaphus wrote: Are we actually talking about the Monstrous Humanoid type, or Humanoids from the bad side of the alignment spectrum here?
I'm wary of introducing many new subtypes because it messes up a Ranger's Favored Enemy choices. But adding more monsters per subtype would actually be a very good thing; if your FE is Humanoid(Orc), then having more than one flavor of orc in the game is cool.
"Sorry, your FE of Gnomes only works against Rock Gnomes, these are Forest Gnomes."
"Sorry, your FE of Dwarves only works against Shield Dwarves. As you can see, these are Dark Iron Dwarves."
"Sorry, your FE of Elves only works against High Elves. As you can see, these are Wood Elves."
If none of these seem convincing to you, I don't think you'd have to worry about it much.
Wolf Munroe wrote: Advanced Race Guide has alternate racial traits for orcs, goblins, and hobgoblins, as well as kobolds and a number of other humanoid races. They're a pretty good place to start with mechanical variations for sub-races, basically swapping out one racial ability for a new replacement based on the character's environment.
The way elven subraces "work" in Pathfinder is that they're just sets of alternate racial traits, swapping standard stuff for the alternates. Each alternate trait specifies which standard trait(s) it replaces.
--Artic elf is a standard elf with the darkvision, desert runner, and elemental resistance alternate racial traits.
--Dusk elf is a standard elf with the arcane focus, darkvision, dreamspeaker, and silent hunter alternate racial traits.
--Savage elf is a standard elf with the eternal grudge and fleet-footed alternate racial traits.
--Tower elf is a standard elf with the arcane focus and urbanite alternate racial traits.
Drow have their own set of alternate racial traits.
Yeah.. I glanced through them, but none of them look terribly promising since every single Goblin one is both absolutely terribly underpowered in exchange of what is replaces and are all geared towards making them into monkeys while the Hobgoblin ones are universally centered around different specialized job in the same society.
None of them alter the base races enough to really simulate what I am trying to do-- and maybe the base races would need to be replaced if one were to try to do what I am proposing because having races that center around a gigantic bonus to a single attribute and very high bonuses to one or two skills doesn't leave one much to replace or customize.
But, if you can propose mechanics that match the descriptions I have written, I would love to see them.
Hebitsuikaza wrote: Wolf Munroe wrote: Advanced Race Guide has alternate racial traits for orcs, goblins, and hobgoblins, as well as kobolds and a number of other humanoid races. They're a pretty good place to start with mechanical variations for sub-races, basically swapping out one racial ability for a new replacement based on the character's environment.
The way elven subraces "work" in Pathfinder is that they're just sets of alternate racial traits, swapping standard stuff for the alternates. Each alternate trait specifies which standard trait(s) it replaces.
--Artic elf is a standard elf with the darkvision, desert runner, and elemental resistance alternate racial traits.
--Dusk elf is a standard elf with the arcane focus, darkvision, dreamspeaker, and silent hunter alternate racial traits.
--Savage elf is a standard elf with the eternal grudge and fleet-footed alternate racial traits.
--Tower elf is a standard elf with the arcane focus and urbanite alternate racial traits.
Drow have their own set of alternate racial traits.
Yeah.. I glanced through them, but none of them look terribly promising since every single Goblin one is both absolutely terribly underpowered in exchange of what is replaces and are all geared towards making them into monkeys while the Hobgoblin ones are universally centered around different specialized job in the same society.
None of them alter the base races enough to really simulate what I am trying to do-- and maybe the base races would need to be replaced if one were to try to do what I am proposing because having races that center around a gigantic bonus to a single attribute and very high bonuses to one or two skills doesn't leave one much to replace or customize.
But, if you can propose mechanics that match the descriptions I have written, I would love to see them.
I don't really have any suggestions for mechanics based on what you've written, I was just offering the alternate racial traits as a starting point since you didn't seem like you'd seen them, and elves already used them as a way of making sub-races.
I actually like the fact that Pathfinder has just one kind of elven race (not counting drow), instead of the 4+ varieties found in 3.x Forgotten Realms (Sun elves, moon elves, wood elves, wild elves, and star elves come to mind). Even the "elven subraces" in Advanced Race Guide are just suggestions for sets of alternate racial traits, so it's not like how 3.x FR had different ability modifiers for each variant.
So, yeah, not really trying to go that in-depth on your project, I just thought I'd point out the orc/goblin/etc alternate racial traits since I didn't notice them mentioned.
I do also usually think of goblin, hobgoblin, and bugbear (and the monkey goblin from Inner Sea Bestiary) as subraces of goblinoid. I'm pretty sure the reason hobgoblins exist in Pathfinder's Inner Sea setting is because "wizards did it" though, at least from what I remember of Classic Monsters Revisited.
Good luck with your stuff, but I don't have anything else to contribute to it so I'll be quiet now.
Um... All those races you've listed are Humanoids, not Monstrous Humanoids. Monstrous Humanoid are things like Hags and Centaurs and Gargoyles and such. Orcs, Goblins, Hobgoblins, etc. are still Humanoids of the Orc, Goblin, and Hobgoblin subypes just as Humans, Elves, and Dwarves are Humanoids of the Human, Elf, and Dwarf subtypes.
Kazaan wrote: Um... All those races you've listed are Humanoids, not Monstrous Humanoids. To be fair, he did say "monstErous humanoids", though that technically isn't a word...
I like the orcs and goblin variants, but don't think that hobgoblins need variants.
You could consider hobgoblins to be a new, radical variant of goblin. Given time, they'll develop their own evolved variants.
Okay, here is my first attempt with these. Maybe someone else can do better.
Deep Orc
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
+2 Intimidate, +2 Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Healthy - +4 on saves vs. Poison and Diseases
Fearless - +2 on saves vs. Fear
Weapon Familiarity (Battle Axe, Hand Axe, Orcish Weapons)
Dark Vision 120'
Light Blindness
Mountain Orc
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
+2 Intimidate, +2 Survival
Healthy - +4 on saves vs. Poison and Diseases
Cold Resistance 3
Weapon Familiarity (Battle Axe, Hand Axe, Orcish Weapons)
Dark Vision 60'
Lowland Orc
+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha
+2 Athletics, +2 Intimidate
Ferocity
Fearless - +2 on saves vs. Fear
Weapon Familiarity (Battle Axe, Hand Axe, Orcish Weapons)
Low Light Vision
--------------------
Forest Goblin
Small
-2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Int
+2 Handle Animal, +2 Stealth, +2 Ride
Fleet Footed - Movement 30'
Nimble Attacks - Has the Weapon Finesse feat
Animal Friendship - When you try to change an animal's attitude using a Handle Animal check, you increase 2 levels instead of one on a success. In addition, if you fail by 5 or more, you may try again even if 24 hours have not past.
Low Light Vision
Night Goblin
Small
-2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Int
+2 Climb, +2 Knowledge (Dungeoneering), +2 Stealth
Fleet Footed - Movement 30'
Nimble Attacks - Has the Weapon Finesse feat
Poison Use
Dark Vision 120'
Light Blindness
Hill Goblin
Small
-2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Int
+2 Craft (Any), +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth
Fleet Footed - Movement 30'
Nimble Attacks - Has the Weapon Finesse feat
Scavenger - You have a +2 bonus on Appraise and Perception checks to find hidden objects (including traps and secret doors), determine whether food is spoiled, or identify a potion by taste.
Dark Vision 60'
-------------------------
Slate Hobgoblin
+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma
+2 Bluff, +2 Diplomacy, +2 Stealth
Armored Scout - Armor check penalties for armor and shields are reduced by 1 point for you.
Weapon Familiarity (Any Martial)
Resistant - +2 bonus against Poisons and Mind-Affecting effects
Dark Vision 120'
Crimson Hobgoblin
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence
+2 Athletics, +2 Intimidate
Armored Scout - Armor check penalties for armor and shields are reduced by 1 point for you.
Weapon Familiarity (Any Martial)
Fearless - +2 Bonus vs. Fear Effects
Hatred - +1 bonus on attack rolls vs. Dwarfs and Elves
Dark Vision 60'
Gamboge Hobgoblin
+2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma
+2 Athletics, +2 Diplomacy, +2 Stealth
Armored Scout - Armor check penalties for armor and shields are reduced by 1 point for you.
Weapon Familiarity (Any Martial)
Fearless - +2 Bonus vs. Fear Effects
Lucky - +1 bonus on all Saving Throws
Low Light Vision
Actually-- on reexmination... remove the Int penalty from the Goblins. Give Forest Goblins a +2 Wis, give the Night Goblins another +2 Con and give the Hill Goblins a +2 Cha.
That should get them onto more equal footing.
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