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I got my hands recently on AP #77 and after reading the article and the background concerning this demon lord I found perhaps the impression he did escaped from Asmodeus labyrinth is in fact misinformation.
Asmodeus most certainly has manipulated the Lord of Minotaurs for turn him from a brute into a force of political and social destabilization so people feel the need of order deliver by an iron hand in a silk glove. Let me elaborate this, Baphomet could think he did escaped but in fact was let to escape by Asmodeus when the Prince of Darkness find the demon lord has changed his mindset to the point he became less demonic and more devilish (this explains also why his head changed into that of a goat).
This also would explain why Nocticula is so eager to murder him, she knows Baphomet is just a pawn of Asmodeus cosmic political chess for total multiversal domination.
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My take would be "no", based on James Jacobs's answers, but that doesn't mean that Asmodeus isn't trying to make the most of the situation. Certainly, he benefits from the persistent presence of the Worldwound distracting from his schemes in Cheliax. He may thus view Baphomet's escape as something of a blessing in disguise: an unplanned and undesired setback in deific politics, but an exploitable opportunity in mortal machinations.
Of course, Big A would tell everyone he planned it all along, and his worshipers would sing his praises for it. But though he gains power from the lie, it is still an unsettling revelation to the Prince of Darkness that he may be bested by a demigod.
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Of course, Asmodeus is the king of the Xanatos Gambit, whether or not it's actually true is much less important.
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Being the unrepentant devil-fan that I am, I personally much prefer this interpretation.
Asmodeus is an ancient god, one of the major players in the deific politics all over the great beyond, whose origin can be traced back to (if not beyond) the creation of reality. Frankly, Baphomet, Cheliax and Worldwound are nothing more an after-dinner card play for him. It is of course possible that he made a mistake(no god in Golarion is omniscient), but would he really care that much?
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Folks are free to do what they wish in their games... but the official Golarion canon is that Asmodeus significantly underestimated Baphomet (after, of course, Baphomet overestimated his own abilities).
It's far more interesting, in my opinion, for a deity as powerful and self-confident as Asmodeus to now and then make mistakes. He's not eager to force a new confrontation with Baphomet anytime soon, and isn't manipulating him... mostly because he doesn't see any advantage to doing so, but partially because he doesn't want to risk the chance, however small, that Baphomet might trick him again.
Baphomet's escape, in the grand scheme of things, is not much more than a minor annoyance and bit of shame to Asmodeus... but some day it could well come back to bite him!
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Folks are free to do what they wish in their games... but the official Golarion canon is that Asmodeus significantly underestimated Baphomet (after, of course, Baphomet overestimated his own abilities).
It's far more interesting, in my opinion, for a deity as powerful and self-confident as Asmodeus to now and then make mistakes. He's not eager to force a new confrontation with Baphomet anytime soon, and isn't manipulating him... mostly because he doesn't see any advantage to doing so, but partially because he doesn't want to risk the chance, however small, that Baphomet might trick him again.
Baphomet's escape, in the grand scheme of things, is not much more than a minor annoyance and bit of shame to Asmodeus... but some day it could well come back to bite him!
I like this idea very much. It is more dramatic and powerful that from these kinds of “trifling“ issues beneath his notice, a god as powerful as Asmodeus shall fell.
I doubt it's much talked about, chances are anyone who mentions it disappears soon after.
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Even though Baphomet's goal of invading Hell and overtaking Asmodeus seems hubristic and ridiculous, one wonders what would become of the multiverse if the demon lord managed to take his place and bring Hell under his reign...
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Hell would rebel.
Even though Baphomet's goal of invading Hell and overtaking Asmodeus seems hubristic and ridiculous, one wonders what would become of the multiverse if the demon lord managed to take his place and bring Hell under his reign...
If Baphomet is moronic enough for do such thing as try to invade the domains of Asmodeus, this sure will be a casus belli which would unleash a conflict between Chaos and Law trough the Great Beyond as ancient pacts would be broken. There is a tense balance between the forces of Law and Chaos since the assassination of Churcanus and Aroden which hasn't break because Pharasma holds a Sword of Damocles above everyone, Groetus.
In a worst case scenario and Baphomet success into his mad scheme, the conflagration will be such Pharasma would cease to use atheist essence for halt the advance of Greotus and let said deity do a "cosmic format C".There is the chance that scenario doesn't happen if the Baphomet instead of murder Asmodeus and steal his essence he does something different, like merge with him, creating a new entity in which the personality of Baphomet would be the predominant one, this of course would create a NE deity with enough power to merge Hell with Abyss. In case the new "Baphodeus"is ambitious enough, assault Abaddon and try to merge with the Fifth Horsemen so he can claim that other plane.
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Yeah, don't worry. Baphomet ain't going to plan anything for much longer.
Given he's got access to scrolls, can summon critters, and the like, why not just summon a half-dozen balor and some of the more powerful minotaur, use Projected Image or the like, and attack them that way? He's not stupid. He knows he's on his last life. So why chance it? (Indeed, Mythic Time Stop, cast the pertinent spells and summons, walk away into the maze so he's out of range of the PCs, cancel the Timestop, and have at it from safety.)
Because chaotic and bad decisions due to rage attack. The latter is pretty much how it's called out in the module.
And a Wisdom of 29. He's not stupid, and he's wise enough to not risk his own life just because the PCs worked through his varied traps.
Of course, it's up to the individual GM. If the GM wants Baphomet to survive and plot for another day, he will find a way to ensure it. But we've already heard cases where Baphomet was curb-stomped quickly and easily. So really, why make it easy for the party? And even an encounter against Projected Image or a related spell would likely be a Mythic Trial. I'd not reward full experience as Baphomet wasn't entirely there, but it'd be an interesting encounter for the group.
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Baphomet is nothing more than a bug in front of Asmodeus. To be sure, a bug can has its own trick and sometimes gets upper hand, but it's still a bug. They are simply not on the same scale in terms of power. The fall of Asmodeus should be something that foundamentally change the multiverse forever. This is far beyond the pathetic machenasm of Baphomet's tricks. That said, it will be very dramatic that Baphomet plays his part in that.
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Baphomet is nothing more than a bug in front of Asmodeus. To be sure, a bug can has its own trick and sometimes gets upper hand, but it's still a bug. They are simply not on the same scale in terms of power. The fall of Asmodeus should be something that foundamentally change the multiverse forever. This is far beyond the pathetic machenasm of Baphomet's tricks. That said, it will be very dramatic that Baphomet plays his part in that.
I beleive that's what the big C said about Lamashtu...
That and Asmodeus is evil and a devil, and thus naturally - and rightfully - somewhat paranoid and distrusting. He won't be fooled again, or at the very least not anytime soon, and within the timeframe of deity, "soon" is a lot longer than ... well, anything we mortals can probably comprehend.
And a Wisdom of 29. He's not stupid, and he's wise enough to not risk his own life just because the PCs worked through his varied traps.
Look, man, it's called out specifically in the module that Baphomet becomes so enraged after losing the herald that he comes running immediately. It's not just me with an opinion. Could he do all the stuff you say before coming to the PC's? Yeah, of course. But anger management issues seem to be par-de-course for demons, see Korramzadeh and Deskari.
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You can absolutely make Baphomet more deadly—his stats are intentionally built to give him options to prepare for a battle against the PCs... but remember, the point isn't to TPK the party. The adventure actually kind of assumes the PCs do NOT fight Baphomet but that they get out of the Abyss quickly after their mission... but if you know your players are not gonna want to do that and you know your players want to face him and think they can take him on... then his stats are there so your group can fight them.
We built him so that he's a CR 27 foe right out of the book, and as such should be a VERY tough encounter for the PCs, but your group might be less accomplished or more accomplishied in their strengths and numbers and gameplay experience than the average group we expect for ALL of our encounters. If you know your group is going to want to fight him, and you know from seeing how they fight and what they're capable of... then Baphomet would know as well. He's smarter than any of us posting on these boards (or anywhere on the Internet, for that matter), so it's fine to use metagame knowledge in that case to let him bolster himself up to be a more deadly and dangerous foe against the PCs. You as the GM need to resist the temptation to make him unbeatable though. You know what your players are capable of. Boost up Baphomet with scrolls and help and whatnot so that the PCs will need to do their best to win against him. That could STILL end in a TPK of course... but you want your PCs to have a chance... however small... to win if they choose to stay and fight.
It's not the end of the AP after all. There's still a book to go!
And a Wisdom of 29. He's not stupid, and he's wise enough to not risk his own life just because the PCs worked through his varied traps.Look, man, it's called out specifically in the module that Baphomet becomes so enraged after losing the herald that he comes running immediately. It's not just me with an opinion. Could he do all the stuff you say before coming to the PC's? Yeah, of course. But anger management issues seem to be par-de-course for demons, see Korramzadeh and Deskari.
Hey Magnuskn, just to diverge a little bit...
How would you as GM roleplay taking hundreds of points of damage per round from your optimized players? Something like, "IMPOSSIBLE! WHAT ARE YOU!?"
The funny thing is that the module makes it look like Baphomet is this terrifying death sentence that the players are advised to avoid at all costs. It has this tone of, "Oh @#$%, Baphomet's coming!" whereas in actuality a lot of people have said that he's not that much of a challenge.
I can see a PC seeing him appear with all his balors and saying, "You kept your guests waiting. That wasn't very polite of you. I suppose you need a lesson in manners, Horned Lord."
Hey Magnuskn, just to diverge a little bit...
How would you as GM roleplay taking hundreds of points of damage per round from your optimized players? Something like, "IMPOSSIBLE! WHAT ARE YOU!?"
The funny thing is that the module makes it look like Baphomet is this terrifying death sentence that the players are advised to avoid at all costs. It has this tone of, "Oh @#$%, Baphomet's coming!" whereas in actuality a lot of people have said that he's not that much of a challenge.
I can see a PC seeing him appear with all his balors and saying, "You kept your guests waiting. That wasn't very polite of you. I suppose you need a lesson in manners, Horned Lord."
Well, I'd say that monsters in-game are kinda ignorant about how outclassed they are in regards to player characters. Otherwise, it's kinda difficult to explain the horrible tactics they are often supposed to use, when they should know how fast and deadly combat is at their power-level.
So you'd have him just show general disbelief and denial at being suddenly maimed?
Pretty much that, yes. He's a being which is thousand of years old, after all and pretty much expects to be invulnerable to "mere mortals".
Again, I see no problem with him having a preexisting Contingency or Miracle set up that would whisk him away from any potential harm should his hit point level drop to under 300. He's not stupid. It seems that the primary way people defeat him is pounding him into mint cream pie while he can't act. Thus providing him with a method to bail when he's badly hurt despite it not being his action sounds more than reasonable.
The players would still get the Mythic Trial and XPs for defeating him in that situation, after all. It's not like they didn't face him.
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Yeah, if the PC's can down him, I don't see the need to rob them of their glory. I'll make it more difficult than the adventure presents it, but I'm not one of the GM's who yanks the rug out from under the players like that.
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I posed this question to James Jacobs the other day, myself, in the thread dedicated to asking him stuff; he gave the answer stated above.
Myself, Asmodeus is my absolute favorite deity in D&D/Pathfinder. While I'm not opposed to him having his failures and hickups every now and then, having him so blatantly outsmarted by a third rate demon lord like Baphomet doesn't sit well with me. If it was someone like Charon or Pazuzu, I wouldn't be so irked, I suppose. But Baphomet? No. Or maybe if it was Baphomet but it played out differently, with Baphomet temporarily outsmarting Asmodeus, much to the archdevil's surprise, only for Asmodeus to rectify the mistake immediately instead of having Baphomet flaunt the victory for another few thousand years.
I personally think it's his own bias towards demons coloring his judgment, but considering it's my bias towards devils coloring mine that leaves me in a pot/kettle situation. Oh well; we're all entitled to our own preferences and opinions; just some of us get to have our opinions published.
As it stands, as far as my home game canon is concerned, Baphomet is's Asmodeus's puppet in the Abyss(along with Graz'zt, but that's another story).
Whether or not this will actually come into play in my WotR game remains to be seen; we're just getting started with Worldwound Incursion so it's a ways off yet. I imagine my party is going to want to stay and fight Baphomet; if they do, I'm toying with the idea of Asmodeus asserting control to prevent Baphomet from fleeing and denying the PC's victory.
I was actually kind of disappointed by a development with my party; initially one player wanted to play a LN cold iron warden inquisitor of Asmodeus, going into Heirophant with the touched by divinity trait; I felt that would have made this particular encounter all the sweeter. But three different players wanted to go into heirophant without being able to agree on a deity - one wanted Iomedae, the other wanted Pharasma. I didn't want to spoil the personal quest or this encounter and eventually the Pharasmean(Pharasmite?) won out, with the Iomedite/dean going into marshal and the Asmodean instead going for a CN fighter going into champion.
Ah well.
Yea, I'm getting that- I certainly don't expect Paizo to use Graz'zt in any of there material, knowing he isn't ogc. I keep him for my home games because, hey, they can't stop me, but that doesn't mean I think that should be any kind of canon as far as Paizo publishing is concerned. Still, I felt Baphomet an odd choice to assume his traditional role. I suppose I'm still clinging to my thoughts of Baphomet in his WotC incarnation.
I do admit that I actually would like this version of Baphomet better(except maybe in terms of appearance). The only thing keeping me from liking him is how he got one over on Asmodeus. That's tainted him in my eyes, though again, this is all one man's opinion.
Former, I would love to see what you have in Graz'zt.
Yep, the Judge, who was supposed to be immortal to mortal weapons. I guess they didn't have a shoulder-mounted rocket launcher in the middle ages.
Former, I would love to see what you have in Graz'zt.
The way I use Graz'zt is combining and rectifying his 4e lore with that of previous editions; like in 4e, he is a former Archdevil who invaded the Abyss on Asmodeus' order and went native. The reason for this is because, like in previous editions, he is actually the child of the demon(originally obyrith/qlippoth) lord Pale Night, sired by Asmodeus himself; invading the Abyss stirred his inherent chaotic nature, helped along by some seduction from Nocitula.
He still serves Asmodeus' purposes, though; he contributes almost nothing to the Blood War(which is very much alive and well in my game) while the forces he throws at Orcus and Demogorgon distract them from focusing enough on the blood war that they might tip the balance. Whether or not he is a willful double agent or a full on rebelling prince is more ambiguous.
In my opining, Baphomet is an underling of Asmodeus in the sense that his prime, youthful existance has been utterly crushed, eroded from him, and shifted throught torture in a calculating, devil-like mind. That brand he has (and that have not removed, for some reason) is also his power because i get what makes devils different and more efficient to demons
Baphomet is now more devil that he would like, and this makes him way more deadly that many other abyssal lords in their quest to expansion. If he was able to free himself while outsmarting Asmodeus, this does not mean that Asmodeus cannot make cash from that loss as well.
In my campaign, for example, Asmodeus has done worse: he has removed and used the youth aspect of Baphomet (called Muar) to create a Nemesis devil to incarnate that prime fury. Said devil has later created a scism in the minotaurs community, building a barbaric, warlike cult (guided by himself) and the true baphomet templars. Funny part is that, while said nemesis devil is on a material plane, Baphomet cannot shift there because he (a part of him) is already there! Throught this scheme, Asmodeus has banished baphomet from his original mortal plane (golarion) while also gainging part of his followers without them knowing. If baphomet gains influence, so does Asmodeus for that influence is splitted with this nemesis devil