Deceptive Monsters, the lure of sex, and humans: What does it mean?

[Cheapy]

I was perusing the bestiaries yesterday when a thought occurred to me: if a monster's schtick is to deceive humanoids by looking like a humanoid, it's almost always going to be a beautiful human female. Sometimes they have Elven features as well, but in general it seems to be a human female.

And I got to thinking. What does that mean? Surely monsters that evolved similar tactics on other planets would reflect the indigenous races there. So why are the vast majority of these types of creatures on Golarion masquerading as a beautiful human female?

Is it just because humans are so populous? Because the standard of beauty (or lust, as many of these monster's ply) holds humans to be the epitome?

Are there any implications of this?

I'm curious what others think on this.

[Cheapy]

Or it could just be that most of the readers of the bestiaries are male humans, so the images are represented as female humans.

But that's boring, so make something interesting up :)

[KahnyaGnorc]

Humans are the most predominant race.

Beautiful females tend to be able to manipulate others, even those not attracted to them, like hetero females, much more easily than attractive males.

How's that?

[Garrett Guillotte]

Worms! Meet my good friend, a can.

I think it's mostly due to so much fantasy, and western/eurocentric fantasy in particular, being rooted in western mythology, which is rich in portrayals of women as tempting, inscrutable, and/or trecherous monsters. See also sirens, harpies, lamia, nymphs, nereids, rusalka, medusa/gorgons, delphyne, echidna, mormo, scylla, the sphinx, witches/hags/changelings, keres, erinyes, graiai, etc. etc.

Basically, if you need deceptive evil, the West gives you tons of examples, almost all of them taking female forms.

[Jeff Erwin]

Garrett Guillotte wrote:

Worms! Meet my good friend, a can.

I think it's mostly due to so much fantasy, and western/eurocentric fantasy in particular, being rooted in western mythology, which is rich in portrayals of women as tempting, inscrutable, and/or trecherous monsters. See also sirens, harpies, lamia, nymphs, nereids, rusalka, medusa/gorgons, delphyne, echidna, mormo, scylla, the sphinx, witches/hags/changelings, keres, erinyes, graiai, etc. etc.

Basically, if you need deceptive evil, the West gives you tons of examples, almost all of them taking female forms.

The incubus and the satyr are the main masculine monstrous seducers depicted in legend I can think of.

[Mikaze]

I have to admit liking the idea of a human-like appearance signifying USB status to almost every other race in the universe.

I mean it was either going to be us or dragons. ;)

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Mikaze wrote:

I have to admit liking the idea of a human-like appearance signifying USB status to almost every other race in the universe.

I mean it was either going to be us or dragons. ;)

With glittering scales and such long, slender... necks. Who wouldn't love those... human females?

[Adam Daigle]

Being a fan of folklore monsters, this was the first category of monsters that I got bored of real fast. I've made the joke that there are really only like a dozen monsters, they just have different accents.

[Jim Groves]

Cheapy wrote:

Is it just because humans are so populous? Because the standard of beauty (or lust, as many of these monster's ply) holds humans to be the epitome?

Are there any implications of this?

I'm curious what others think on this.

I think there is a good discussion to be had here, but if were I to provide a concise answer, it would be that Golarion is (by design) a human-centric world. Or, to use your words, because humans are so populous.

Now, in a way, I think you could argue that the creatures existed from previous editions or were created independently of Golarion. That's because they're rooted in folklore and that folklore is drawn from Earth.

Which is, in a roundabout way, a good argument why it wise for Erik, James, Wes, and Co. to make Golarion a human-centric world—because there would be common themes derived from myth, legend and folklore. There have been settings, particularly in science fiction that have delved in the topic of what it is to be truly divorced from humanity as we know it. Golarion is not such a setting.

Why did Earth folklore focus so much on the female and on sex? Those were cultural issues from those societies that made them.

You raise a good point though, in that here is a place that its possible to make Golarion different than Earth in a more representative way.

EDIT: Somewhat ninja'd by Adam! I'm much more verbose!

[Jim Groves]

Adam Daigle wrote:

Being a fan of folklore monsters, this was the first category of monsters that I got bored of real fast. I've made the joke that there are really only like a dozen monsters, they just have different accents.

Interesting remark! It reminds me of something that Greg Stafford once said about his fictional world, Glorantha.

(A famous old setting that pre-Mongoose Runequest used (and may still use again with RQ6 by Design Mechanism). Stafford invented the world in the late sixties and then adapted it to Runequest at the same time D&D came about. Original Runequest was the precursor to Call of Cthulthu, Elric, and all those d100 percentile systems that Chaosium produced.)

Getting sidetracked...

Anyway, Stafford's world has like hundreds of deities to serve all the various diverse cultures and races. Not too long ago he suggested there are, in fact, far fewer than that but they speak in different accents and wear different masks.

[Mikaze]

There's also a lot of folks that would probably appreciate more handsome/beautiful male seductive types, be they good(along the line of nymphs), neutral(dryads), or evil(fossegrim actually stepped in there recently).

"Male nymph equivalent" seems to be the one I hear called for the most.

[Sissyl]

Which is, at least in some versions of greek mythology, satyrs.

[Mikaze]

Sissyl wrote:

Which is, at least in some versions of greek mythology, satyrs.

I think some of those folks weren't too happy about their implied aggressiveness.(or explicitly predatory if one pulls from the myths)

Fauns seemed to go over better though!

[EM_aka_Elfmeister]

Mr. Tumnus sure does get a lot of love from the ladies.

You could say he really gets their goat.

waggles eyebrows.

I'll excuse myself.

[Ezakim]

That was just baaaaaad.

[Sarcasmancer]

Maybe humans are just unusually sex-crazed and therefore low hanging fruit for the "look like a female to lure males to their doom" terato-ecological niche.

Maybe that's one of the racial stereotypes dwarves, elves, etc have about humans - they're dumb, lazy, and awkward, but with a high sex drive.

[Sarcasmancer]

Given the existence of ifrit, undines, oreads, sylphs, janni, tieflings, aasimar, dhampirs(!), and all the "half" races (in which the half is always understood to be humans), maybe they are right.

[MMCJawa]

Beyond the other points above, most of the "hot female seducer" monsters have a rather elfish quality to them, so I suppose they are targeting elves as well.

It might also just be the seductive approach works better on some races more than others. I don't see a seduction of an ogre or aboleth going that well...

[Berinor]

Maybe you're just letting your biases color which ones you see as deceptive. All devils are to a certain extent. Maybe on a planet circling a distant sun, the glabrezu are the scantily clad sex objects that succubi are to humans.

On a more serious note, many of them have alien enough features that they clearly aren't human and could be stand-ins for most humanoids. They only look really human with disguise self and the like. When I run, a succubus might be able to shift into dwarf or goblin form rather than human form.

[Snorter]

Maybe there are monsters out there who lead different races such as dwarves, to their doom, but those races have the good sense, or embarrassment, to keep it quiet?

"Is that your cousin Snorri, over there?"

"No, it's not, come along. Don't tarry."

"I'm sure it is. Hey, Snorri.... He's not answering."

"Come along, we'll be late. Leave it alone."

"Hey, Snorri whooah! Why is he not wearing pants?"

"I said nothing to see here. Come away."

"And why is he draped over that curiously shaped stalagmite? What's he...Oh. Oh nonono."

"I SAID. NOTHING. TO. SEE. HERE."

[Lamontius]

That adorable squirrel perched on that tree stump would like to have a word with you, Cheapy. Go pet it.

[Cheapy]

K, I'm on it.

[Orfamay Quest]

Cheapy wrote:

So why are the vast majority of these types of creatures on Golarion masquerading as a beautiful human female?

Because Golarion is based in Earth myth, and Earth myth as told by Earth humans, reflecting Earth concerns.

Perhaps dolphins tell stories in their pods about vampiric she-dolphins with shark tails that feast on the souls of young and foolish dolphins they have lured to their doom. But we don't know any of those stories and so Paizo didn't put any of them into the bestiary.

[Jim Groves]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

So why are the vast majority of these types of creatures on Golarion masquerading as a beautiful human female?

Because Golarion is based in Earth myth, and Earth myth as told by Earth humans, reflecting Earth concerns.

Perhaps dolphins tell stories in their pods about vampiric she-dolphins with shark tails that feast on the souls of young and foolish dolphins they have lured to their doom. But we don't know any of those stories and so Paizo didn't put any of them into the bestiary.

This sounds familiar and wise.

[Lamontius]

Cheapy wrote:

K, I'm on it.

okay you took this to a whole tentacle interaction situation that I am no longer comfortable with

[Aaron Bitman]

MMCJawa wrote:

I don't see a seduction of an ogre or aboleth going that well...

Years ago, I ran a campaign in which the party encountered the same succubus in two different adventures, disguised as a different woman each time. On both occasions, she claimed to be the prisoner of a powerful villain. I seriously considered sending the party to an ogre chief's lair where they would encounter, among other monsters, the ogresses of the chief's harem. One such ogress would secretly be the same succubus in disguise.

(I never got around to that, though, before the campaign fizzled out.)

[darkwarriorkarg]

MMCJawa wrote:

I don't see a seduction of an ogre or aboleth going that well...

You don<t NEED to seduce ogres.

[Luthorne]

I'd agree with people saying that it's because humans are the most populous race on Golarion; from what's been said, virtually everywhere on Golarion, humans are the most numerous, dominant race on the whole, with a few areas that are more dominated by a different race, but usually just on a city/country level at most. If these creatures exist on other planets not dominated by humans, they would probably look like whatever the dominant race was, presuming there was one.

This tactic makes sense from a few different angles...first of all, they are statistically most likely to run into humans of the humanoid races to prey on. Thus they can pretend to be another human, whether they can do so well enough to maintain the facade even within a city, or simply from enough of a distance to potentially fool someone.

Second of all, even if they run into a non-human but civilized humanoid, such as a dwarf, an elf, a gnome, etc., humans are still such a known quantity that they're likely to be fooled into thinking that the creature is a human rather than what it really is. Even in an elven or dwarven city, there's likely to be at least a small human population, I would imagine, unless they forbid humans for some reason.

And even if it runs into something like an orc, a goblin, an ogre, or some other creature who might be hostile towards humans, they would still potentially be fooled into thinking the creature in question is less dangerous than it really is, thus letting their guard down, since such creatures are usually significantly more powerful than your average commoner and adept at fooling others, quite likely allowing them an advantage as they pose as a defenseless commoner...aggressive mimicry, in short.

Some creatures have the supernatural ability to appear like almost any humanoid, however, and are just portrayed as a default human-like appearance...a succubus, for example, can as easily turn into a seductive gnome, dwarf, or orc, as appropriate...and of whatever sex is appropriate too. For example, if they were seeking to lure Mikaze to their doom they would presumably turn into an orc and use their high Bluff to claim they were from a good-aligned orc tribe...

[Mikaze]

Luthorne wrote:

For example, if they were seeking to lure Mikaze to their doom they would presumably turn into an orc and use their high Bluff to claim they were from a good-aligned orc tribe...

Don't toy with my feelings so. ;_;

[The NPC]

Cheapy wrote:

I was perusing the bestiaries yesterday when a thought occurred to me: if a monster's schtick is to deceive humanoids by looking like a humanoid, it's almost always going to be a beautiful human female. Sometimes they have Elven features as well, but in general it seems to be a human female.

And I got to thinking. What does that mean? Surely monsters that evolved similar tactics on other planets would reflect the indigenous races there. So why are the vast majority of these types of creatures on Golarion masquerading as a beautiful human female?

Is it just because humans are so populous? Because the standard of beauty (or lust, as many of these monster's ply) holds humans to be the epitome?

Are there any implications of this?

I'm curious what others think on this.

Because Men are easy?

[The NPC]

Mikaze wrote:

Luthorne wrote:

For example, if they were seeking to lure Mikaze to their doom they would presumably turn into an orc and use their high Bluff to claim they were from a good-aligned orc tribe...

Don't toy with my feelings so. ;_;

Just remember "Conceal, Don't Feel"

[Ambrosia Slaad]

My biology is rusty (Todd Stewart could easily explain this, and more, much better), but for the first several weeks (month?) of gestation, all fetal humans are pretty much female until the specific epigenetic switches trigger and tell a male fetus to differentiate itself from a female fetus, although "complications" (not quite the right word choice) occasionally can and do occur. Maybe most of these "female"-appearing non-humanoids just don't have those triggers while gestating... heck, some of them don't even gestate, like the succubi from Abyssal reforging.

Many of these beings also act as some form of predator on humanoids, so evolved Batesian mimicry or camouflage as a non-threat (like stick insects or ant-mimicking spiders), or as a lure (like anglerfish), may also play a role. Even in a more gender egalitarian setting like Golarion, female humanoids at first glance may still be judged as less likely to be threats, or at least less likely to be physically-threatening ones. If male humanoids are more likely to adventure/seek combat/go to war, evolutionarily a female humanoid-mimicking predator would seem to have an statistical advantage of attracting more prey.

It's also possible that some female humanoid-mimicking predator races suffer from a higher incidence of genetic defects or disadvantageous mutations. As humanoids, and especially humans, seem to have a genetic advantage in crossbreeding with many different species, perhaps those humanoid/human genes prove advantageous in stabilizing or reducing congenital disorders/mutations. And since humanoid males produce far greater numbers of gametes and expel them externally (unlike the ovums of viviparous female humanoids), assuming a form that attracts most humanoid males means greater success collecting the needed humanoid DNA.

This has MetaBestiary Spitballing 101 with your TA, Ambrosia Slaad.

[Hograth Graul]

darkwarriorkarg wrote:

MMCJawa wrote:

I don't see a seduction of an ogre or aboleth going that well...

You don<t NEED to seduce ogres.

Yew got a purty mouth, boy.

[John Kretzer]

What got me about Pathfinder is how many races need human men to reproduce...All Hags, Harpy, Medusa, Siren, Jorogumo, Thriae plus others I might have missed.

It is like Mars wants our women...but instead it is...

Golarion Wants Our Men!!!

[Gancanagh]

Jeff Erwin wrote:

The incubus and the satyr are the main masculine monstrous seducers depicted in legend I can think of.

Hahahahahaha they are rather ugly compared to the Fossegrim and Gancanagh tho, especially the Satyr.

While Satyr's and Incubi must be rapists because they are ugly, the Fossegrim and Gancanagh are charmers with their looks, women fall for them.

Gancanagh are so powerful they make women addicted to them, something no female monster can do as far as I know, Succubi (which are very different from incubi) come close tho.

Keres, Medusa, Harpy and many others from that huge greek female monster list aren't suppose to be pretty, D&D made them photo-models, but they aren't suppose to be at all.

[Jeff Erwin]

Actually, incubi are almost always (in non-PF literature and folklore) seducers. And satyrs or fauns are somewhat ambiguous; art and literature depicts them in various ways. Given that fey creatures had considerable overlap with demons and even ghosts, the gancanagh is essentially how the incubus was presented in medieval folklore.

Of course, the principal seducers of women and men in Classical folklore were the gods themselves.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Gancanagh wrote:

Gancanagh are so powerful they make women addicted to them, something no female monster can do as far as I know...

Ah, the dreaded and highly-addictive kavorka.

[The NPC]

I remember in the Denizens of Dread book from Ravenloft they had a monster that preyed primarily on women. I forget what its called. It turned women into trees and the way to kill it permanently was for the woman's love to take the heartwood of the tree and use it to make a weapon that could kill the monster. The downside being that it killed the woman.

[MMCJawa]

John Kretzer wrote:

What got me about Pathfinder is how many races need human men to reproduce...All Hags, Harpy, Medusa, Siren, Jorogumo, Thriae plus others I might have missed.

It is like Mars wants our women...but instead it is...

Golarion Wants Our Men!!!

A lot of these however may be more adaptable. Siren/Harpies (or at least one of those) can breed with Dire Corbies. If we don't see more non human pairings from those guys, it might simply be due to Humans just being so abundant in Golarion, and perhaps relatively easier to seduce.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

So why are the vast majority of these types of creatures on Golarion masquerading as a beautiful human female?

Because Golarion is based in Earth myth, and Earth myth as told by Earth humans, reflecting Earth concerns.

Perhaps dolphins tell stories in their pods about vampiric she-dolphins with shark tails that feast on the souls of young and foolish dolphins they have lured to their doom. But we don't know any of those stories and so Paizo didn't put any of them into the bestiary.

Who could resist the lure of the sexy, sexy FINcubus?

[Sissyl]

Honestly, I can't see a demon like a succubus caring much about the gender of their target, in anything but a practical aspect. If the target happens to be a homosexual woman, the succubus will be all too happy to provide services. Same with most other such monsters, the only exception should be those with a roughly human background.

One idea I found very logical is that if the orc chieftain wants half-orcs because they are smarter, the orcs aren't going to go kidnap human WOMEN. That's worthless, yielding only a very few half-orcs. No, they will be going for a few strong young men.

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

Mikaze wrote:

Luthorne wrote:

For example, if they were seeking to lure Mikaze to their doom they would presumably turn into an orc and use their high Bluff to claim they were from a good-aligned orc tribe...

Don't toy with my feelings so. ;_;

I am also a bit hurt. What? Mikaze is the only one that trick would work on?!..

Wait...
Nevermind, be about your business, nothing to see here.

Sissyl wrote:

Honestly, I can't see a demon like a succubus caring much about the gender of their target, in anything but a practical aspect. If the target happens to be a homosexual woman, the succubus will be all too happy to provide services. Same with most other such monsters, the only exception should be those with a roughly human background.

One idea I found very logical is that if the orc chieftain wants half-orcs because they are smarter, the orcs aren't going to go kidnap human WOMEN. That's worthless, yielding only a very few half-orcs. No, they will be going for a few strong young men.

See! Somebody else gets it!

By the way, thank you for a new level of squick in human/orc relations, Sissyl...

[Garrett Guillotte]

Sissyl wrote:

Honestly, I can't see a demon like a succubus caring much about the gender of their target, in anything but a practical aspect. If the target happens to be a homosexual woman, the succubus will be all too happy to provide services. Same with most other such monsters, the only exception should be those with a roughly human background.

Golarion's succubi can take male forms (really, any form a target finds attractive) for seduction purposes. Nobody's left out; everybody's a target.

The main difference between Pathfinder's succubi and incubi is that succubi are seducers and manipulators, and incubi are sadists, pillagers, and thinly veiled rapists:

Bestiary 3 wrote:

Yet whereas succubi are subtle and methodical about using their charms to cause ruin, the typical incubus is forthright and forceful about his insatiable desires.

[Gancanagh]

That's why the Gancanagh must be in Bestiary 5.

ITs the true male concurrent of the Succubi, not a rapist like the Incubus and not only a charmer like the Fossegrim.

[Lloyd Jackson]

Why human males?

They're plentiful. (Humans are everywhere.)
They're virile. (Humans have a pretty good sex to pregnancy ratio, at least compared to elves.)
They're easy. (Much easier to grab genetic material from a male and gestate yourself, than give to a female and hover around for months.)
They're interested. (Black, white, green, blue, if you're pretty, I'll bang you.)
They're compatible. (As as been mentioned, only outsiders and dragons compare to humans when it comes to half-breeds.)
They're safe. (Ogres will eat you, orcs will beat you, humans just say thank you.)

I apologize for the terrible rhymes. It's the chemistry, it does strange things to my brain.

[John Kretzer]

Sissyl wrote:

One idea I found very logical is that if the orc chieftain wants half-orcs because they are smarter, the orcs aren't going to go kidnap human WOMEN. That's worthless, yielding only a very few half-orcs. No, they will be going for a few strong young men.

While that would be logical I just don't see it in the way orc culture is often depicted. They are just too sexist.

Though it does spark a interesting idea for a tribe of Amazon Orcs....mmmm....

[Sindakka]

John Kretzer wrote:

Sissyl wrote:

One idea I found very logical is that if the orc chieftain wants half-orcs because they are smarter, the orcs aren't going to go kidnap human WOMEN. That's worthless, yielding only a very few half-orcs. No, they will be going for a few strong young men.

While that would be logical I just don't see it in the way orc culture is often depicted. They are just too sexist.

Though it does spark a interesting idea for a tribe of Amazon Orcs....mmmm....

*mental image of female Orc trying to seduce male Human*

...I, just... I just don't see this working out well. Call me racist...

[Mikaze]

Sindakka wrote:

John Kretzer wrote:

Though it does spark a interesting idea for a tribe of Amazon Orcs....mmmm....

*mental image of female Orc trying to seduce male Human*

...I, just... I just don't see this working out well. Call me racist...

I can totally see it working. Especially with a glance at the Internet.

That and it would be wonderful to have some more support for half-orc players that wanted their human/orc parentage to be loving and consensual.

[Cheapy]

Mikaze wrote:

Sindakka wrote:

John Kretzer wrote:

Though it does spark a interesting idea for a tribe of Amazon Orcs....mmmm....

*mental image of female Orc trying to seduce male Human*

...I, just... I just don't see this working out well. Call me racist...

I can totally see it working. Especially with a glance at the Internet.

That and it would be wonderful to have some more support for half-orc players that wanted their human/orc parentage to be loving and consensual.

Raise your hand if you were surprised that Mikaze can see it working.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Mikaze wrote:

Sindakka wrote:

John Kretzer wrote:

Though it does spark a interesting idea for a tribe of Amazon Orcs....mmmm....

*mental image of female Orc trying to seduce male Human*

...I, just... I just don't see this working out well. Call me racist...

I can totally see it working. Especially with a glance at the Internet.

That and it would be wonderful to have some more support for half-orc players that wanted their human/orc parentage to be loving and consensual.

I gotta agree. Also, q.v. this Futurama episode. (Spoilers!)

Cheapy wrote:

Raise your hand if you were surprised that Mikaze can see it working.

Mikaze is understudying as Shelyn's herald, focused on interhumanoid races Love.