Is it evil to change a monsters stat block?


Advice

Lantern Lodge

My APL is currently 9. I generate encounter tables before every session and give it a certain percent chance that the party runs into a baddie (or a good or neutral RP encounter). I feel the party has loot beyond their level, which while my fault, challenges me to keep the game interesting for them.

So I am changing a White Dragon's stat block around a bit...

Weapon Focus -> Toughness for that 23 more HP thank you very much
Charm Monster -> Black Tentacles
Lightning bolt -> Haste
Fly (not kidding.. :-/) -> Stinking Cloud
Web -> Invisibility
(lots of worthless level 1 spells) -> Prot from Good, Mage Armor, Silent Image, Shield, Grease, Color Spray

Ability Focus -> Combat Reflexes

Escape button: Dimension door back to the lair.

Before combat I am planning to have him notified by his Alarm spell. He then casts resist energy fire on himself, bull's strength, mage armor, shield and prot from good. He goes invisible and has a silent image of himself sleeping in a fake lair. Once the party takes the bait, he nails them with ice breath and starts trying to drop the NPC soldiers they hired one-by-one to taunt them.

Is this being too evil to my players?


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Not at all!

I was running an encounter with a bunch of cultists (rogue/priests) and in the statblock they all had selective channeling, but had a CHA of 9... umm... ???

So I gave them all weapon finesse instead.

Very Respectfully,
--Bacon

Liberty's Edge

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I second the not at all. It's good sometimes to change up a stat block so your players never really know what to expect. It adds verisimilitude to the game.


Variety is the spice of life. If every encountered follow the stat blocks verbatim, then combat could get boring very quickly. Just like how not every Orc needs to be wielding a falchion, not every dragon needs to know the same spells.

In fact, you don't even really need to give the dragon Toughness to give it that extra 23hp. There's easily enough room in the dragon's existing 21HD to afford it that much leeway. After all, monster HP is calculated using averages. If you were to roll all of its HD yourself, you'd probably come close to what's in the stat block, but you could just as easily end up a fair bit lower or higher.


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Mine shall be the third "not at all".

In fact, I congratulate you on your first step as a game designer. Tweaking other people's work is how they all get started, I imagine.


You will lose all your Paladin abillities instantly now!

Liberty's Edge

While adding variety is a good thing and should be a common practice for any significant encounter, just be careful not to change feats that are important to the creature's core abilities... don't want to switch a thing or two and then realize that the changes have seriously weakened your BBEG.

Changing the spell list is almost a given, they are very generic and vanilla anyway, and mixing things up can be fun. Though some of them may be there for specific flavor or environmental reasons.

That said, the first white dragon that I see that matches most of the spells you list is an CR 15 Ancient, but not all the feats or spells are the same. If that is the one you are using, remember that it has spells like lightning bolt as an alternate energy type for damage... since it's breath is cold and it is vulnerable to fire... and really, if played intelligently, it should be more than a handful for the party even without vast changes. Heck, his Blizzard ability coupled with his Snow Vision can seriously ruin someone's day.


One thing I would add is that if any changes are visible to characters when they see an enemy, then it's only fair to let them make a knowledge check to realise.
In most cases the knowledge check should include something like 'that's what most of these are like but nothing is fixed or guaranteed.'

Lantern Lodge

Why use lightning bolts when he can silence and invisibility himself while the party is distracted with a Silent Image, and start dropping NPCs to their bloody deaths 200 feet below? :p

The way I figure it a highly intelligent ancient dragon is going to do what he can to toy with his prey before killing them. Using illusions to figure out what they would do, waste their resources and ultimately move in and just pick people off one by one. Why fight fair on the ground when he can just fly by and drop people after he CC's with Black Tentacles, Color Spray and persistent grease. Made your saves? Great, have fun dealing with your greased weapon and firing arrows in 30mph winds. Or mass reduce person on the flying members in the air. Have fun getting blown away by that Gust of Wind.

I agree about knowledge telling archetypal things. But no amount of knowledge is going to tell you what spells the dragon prepared that morning. On border-line rolls for Knowledge DC, instead of telling players "You don't know" I like telling them deliberately false information, to simulate the unreliable nature of second-hand information. Then again I am sort of an evil DM... muhahahaha


Nope. It might be a bit chaotic, though ;)

Liberty's Edge

One big change I always implement is maximizing hit points for 'boss monster.' This keeps the fight going for a few rounds and keeps the encounter memorable. If the big bad drops in the first or second round, they're not very memorable. However, if the fight lasts six or seven rounds, that's much more fun.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Another vote for the not at all. Sometimes as a GM you look at something, and feel it doesn't fit; whether it's an encounter as a whole, a creature's odd choice of spells, feats, or abilities. As long as what you change doesn't put the PCs at a HUGE disadvantage, you'll be golden.

Sovereign Court

It's fine to change stats, to make things less predictable, or to create cool situation because you know just the right power for the adventure. And if the monster's stats are plain buggy (Selective Channel with Cha 9 was mentioned), they ought to be changed as well.

However, you should also make sure to look carefully if you're not making the encounter harder. Most of the monsters have a fairly tame feat selection, and with some engineering, can be much more dangerous without changing the amount of feats. For example, you could substitute a T-Rex's Skill Focus with Vital Strike, increasing his bite damage by 4d6.

Not saying that's bad, but keep in mind that the monster might become more powerful than advertised on the tin.


That would be an ecumenical matter.

Scarab Sages

Changing things up is great.
I once ran a campaign (In 3.5)that was a cut-off Prime, sort of like Ravenloft. Since, the Outsiders trapped there were not connected directly to the Abyss, Olympus, whatever, I ruled that they could shift a step, Alignment-wise. A CN Succubus Bard became one of my favorite DMPC/Party foils, both for me, as well as them. She also became a romabntic interest for one of them, who invested in magical protection, just so that he could tryst with her... Ahem.

Likewise, shifting a Bronze Dragon from LG to LN provided an interesting twist, as this dragon became obsessed with 'The Rules' of commerce, and proper respect. When a particular city failed to pay tribute for passing through his territory, he began waylaying (And sometimes) sinking their ships, the loot coming off of what they owed him.

Just a couple of examples from my games.

-Uriel


Changing the stat block: Not evil unless you're massively powering it up and keeping the CR (monsters tend to be very poorly "optimized") or changing it but not informing the players of notable changes if they roll a good knowledge check on it.


Changing the spell list seems legitimate. Changing the feats is kind of tricky due to the issues Ascalaphus mentioned. I like adding templates , class levels, or hit dice since it provides some guidelines to measure the increase in CR.

Changing or augmenting a monster's skill selections to include UMD can also help the creature be more effective. An enemy NPC who buffs with a wand of Shield or Mirror Image before attacking the PCs will be a much tougher foe.


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No. What's evil is bratty little players attempting to memorize stat blocks and gain an advantage they shouldn't have. Those types richly deserve a nasty little surprise ... and if it gets their characters killed, well ... maybe they'll learn something.


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Jaelithe wrote:
No. What's evil is bratty little players attempting to memorize stat blocks and gain an advantage they shouldn't have. Those types richly deserve a nasty little surprise ... and if it gets their characters killed, well ... maybe they'll learn something.

The irony that you call the players bratty as you crow over killing them to teach them a lesson is utterly staggering.


I3igAl wrote:

You will lose all your Paladin abillities instantly now!

Glad I wasn't the only one who thought this. Can this become a thread about paladins falling now?

Seriously, count me in the "you're doing it right" camp.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:
No. What's evil is bratty little players attempting to memorize stat blocks and gain an advantage they shouldn't have. Those types richly deserve a nasty little surprise ... and if it gets their characters killed, well ... maybe they'll learn something.
The irony that you call the players bratty as you crow over killing them to teach them a lesson is utterly staggering.

Especially since that wouldn't teach them anything. If players are the problem, deal with the players, not their characters.


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Zhayne wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:
No. What's evil is bratty little players attempting to memorize stat blocks and gain an advantage they shouldn't have. Those types richly deserve a nasty little surprise ... and if it gets their characters killed, well ... maybe they'll learn something.
The irony that you call the players bratty as you crow over killing them to teach them a lesson is utterly staggering.
Especially since that wouldn't teach them anything. If players are the problem, deal with the players, not their characters.

That should always be the case. Such is self-evident. Going out of your way to kill someone's character is evidence that you shouldn't be DMing.

But, again, there's nothing wrong with changing a stat block, and having little or no sympathy when the players are whining that the monster isn't reacting the way the book says it should.

Adapt. Overcome. Deal with it.


I always assumed (maybe wrongly) that a monsters' spell list (if casting with class levels or as class levels) and feat list was more an example or "quick build" than it was gospel. I usually change it up, personally.

Some notes on it though:

- Don't optimize your monsters any more than the PCs optimize themselves.
- A unique spell list gives your monster a ton of style: keep in mind that you could have two white dragons, and if one of them focuses on spell that aid it in melee while the other relies on battlefield control type spells, you have two very different personalities stored up in there. Customizing monsters will make them tougher or weaker, but more importantly I think is that it gives you the freedom to think "sure, white dragons are X, but MY white dragon is Y, and here's how I want to express that."
- Keep in mind that monsters will have abilities that are not too useful against your team. Monsters are not tailor made to defeat your team any more than your team is tailor made to beat your monsters. That said, you don't seem to be doing this last one at all, and that is hella rad.

What I'm basically saying is you've got this, it's completely fair, and as long as your paladin God is more concerned with good than law, you'll be completely fine.


Perfectly Ok. BUT, be sure to let the PC's who make a good Ks roll know what's going on.

In general, unless it's a super common monster, just tell the PC's "You see a Large dragon type. Make your Ks Arcana.", then tell them facts about it as per the roll. It's perfectly OK for any PC with decent ranks to be able to know all basic facts about dragons in general, so they wouldn't get that as bonus info.

I don't even tell them the name unless it's common or they have fought one before.


I'd rather have the GM give good descriptions of the monsters and insist that the players shouldn't use metagame knowledge when nobody in the party has the appropriate Knowledge skill. If the players can't behave themselves then the GM might have to get tricky.

Anyhow, I have to ask where the OP got the original monster stats from. The white dragons on the PRD and d20pfsrd don't have Fly as a spell known, and the lowest CR white dragon I see with 4th level spells is the ancient white dragon at CR15. If you're putting an APL9 party up against a CR15 dragon that might be at least a little evil.


Not at all.


You should have one of the spells be Dragons Breath, so it can also spout a 30' cone of fire or acid or something. You know, for giggles. That'd really mess with them.

"Um, did ... did that White Dragon just breathe ... fire!?"

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I3igAl wrote:

You will lose all your Paladin abillities instantly now!

But all GM's are secretly blackguards, so he should get a bonus for an especially evil act.

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