This is for Sorc and Bard;
"Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which she spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies her mind to cast her daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh herself, the character does not regain the spell slots she used up the day before."
Bold mine again. The RAW and the RAI seem pretty solid here. I really don't think you can regain spells/abilities more than once per day, no matter how much rest you get.
I'd imagine all the things that say they are 'per day', are actually 'per day' too. I'm not sure what sort of argument could be made for them to be used more than "per day" unless you wander into some weird time flow dimension.
"Daily spells" is basically just a label. With divine spells they clearly state that a full day has to pass before preparing again - this would not be needed if calling them "daily spells" would already incorporate this. In contrast, arcane preparation makes no such mention at all, ever - they just refer to them as "daily spells". You can see a similar thing with the barbarian rage wording.
Note also that if we want to get pedantic in that it mentions the word "day" and from there come to the conclusion that it's limited by day, note that nowhere in the quote you said does it even say it limits them. It says that they have to rest each day - but not that they can only rest once per day. Compare that to the very specific wording on not being able to cast prepare spells in slots used within 8 hours.
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2) Casting times of long range teleportations are 5 minutes, or however long the longest-lasting buff spell is. Prevents characters from scry-buff-teleport, and from using teleportation as a panic button.
Another option to reduce the possibility of scry-buff-teleport (which I've seen mentioned *a lot* on messageboards, but never actually encountered in a game), would be to have teleport stun the arriving party for an amount of time, leaving them effectively helpless on appearing (similar to how dimension door eats up any remaining action you might have, even if quickened, but even more severely).
I'd imagine all the things that say they are 'per day', are actually 'per day' too. I'm not sure what sort of argument could be made for them to be used more than "per day" unless you wander into some weird time flow dimension."Daily spells" is basically just a label. With divine spells they clearly state that a full day has to pass before preparing again - this would not be needed if calling them "daily spells" would already incorporate this. In contrast, arcane preparation makes no such mention at all, ever - they just refer to them as "daily spells". You can see a similar thing with the barbarian rage wording.
Note also that if we want to get pedantic in that it mentions the word "day" and from there come to the conclusion that it's limited by day, note that nowhere in the quote you said does it even say it limits them. It says that they have to rest each day - but not that they can only rest once per day. Compare that to the very specific wording on not being able to cast prepare spells in slots used within 8 hours.
I think you are purposefully reading it in the lawyerliest way imaginable... and are still wrong. I'll explain.
"Daily spells" isn't just a label... it tells us that these spells are used, per day, with a limit to them that is daily. It is descriptive.
Divine spells don't tell us that a full day needs to pass. You are misremembering it. Divine spellcasters need to prepare their spells at a specific time during the day, or as soon after this time as is possible. If they miss this window, they cannot prepare spells until the next day. But they don't require any sort of rest whatsoever to do this.
So... "daily spells" doesn't tell us that. Which is why they describe and explain it.
They pick a time at character creation (or when they gain a spellcaster level), say, dawn/noon/midnight etc. And then thereafter, whenever they prepare their spells, it has to be at this pre-established time. That is how the divine casters do it.
So, for them, daily spells are daily.
Now let's look a bit closer at arcanists.
"her daily allotment of spells"
"Each day, sorcerers and bards"
"regain the spell slots she used up the day before."
"To prepare his daily spells"
"A wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day."
These bits all seem to very clearly show us that the spells are, in fact, daily. They have spells per day. They are even called 'spells per day'. There is a chart next to the class entries... which clearly shows how many 'spells per day' the character has.
I'm not sure how it is really all that ambiguous?
Their spells per day, are... per day. The limit to the number of spells they may cast... is a daily limit. They cannot exceed this default limit, unless some power or ability specifically says they can.
Taking a nap doesn't cut it. Nor does drinking water, or eating, or whatever else might restore mana/mp in other games. No fountains, or fairies, or mystic vortexes. They just have a daily limit.
To regain that limit, they do need rest, that is true. That is one of the requirements to regain their spells. But... the other limiting factor is that they’re a daily limited asset. So, regaining your spells can only be done the one time, per day.
I think you are purposefully reading it in the lawyerliest way imaginable...
Nope, that would be saying you can cast them completely unlimited during the night ;)
But seriously, if it's limited "per day", doesn't that mean that you want to start adventuring at about 22:50 on the evening, to nova everything during the first 10 minutes, and then just take an hour to reprepare them, since it's a new day? After all, it only states that they need to have rested prior to preparing, not that they need to rest immediately before.Also, it should be noted that it's a practice that's been around (and very very common) since at least 3.0, and hasn't been clarified not to work ever so far, neither from WotC nor paizo. You may be right of course, but I've seen no indication of it from the publishers during the at least 10 years I've seen this done, and with your ruling it leads to other metagaming issues (unless we want to read even more into the rules).
I also somewhat find it breaking my verisimillitude. Since they're not fueled by inner power or getting ritualized aid from the outside, but rather are just applying a method to affect their surroundings, it just seems... weird, if they are limited by such a very arbitrary clock. Kind of like if Cleave or Knowledge (Local) could only be used once every full hour.
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Um, guys, the point is not that you use rope trick to regain spells more than once a day. That's crazy; no one is suggesting that (except you two, apparently), it's never been considered legal, and it's certainly not the source of rope trick's brokenness.
The reason the spell is broken is because you regain spells, go out and nova things for 15 minutes, and then spend the rest of the day just hanging out. And then when it comes time to sleep, or if anything threatening comes your way, you climb into the rope trick and sleep / relax in there.
To go back to my previous Ravenloft example, one of the things that are supposed to make that adventure scary is that spending the night in the castle is anywhere from spooky to terrifying; all manner of things roam the halls of Ravenloft at night, and they will come upon you while you sleep, quietly subdue whoever's on watch, and feast on your delicious blood / life energy / etc.
But if you've got rope trick, then all of that is moot. Anytime you feel like not exploring anymore, you just plop yourself down wherever you are and hang out, and when it's time to sleep, you all climb into the extradimensional space and sleep soundly, knowing that you're immune to anything and everything that might walk by. Heck, you can prepare three rope tricks (or make some scrolls) and have 24 hours of coverage at level 8! You are exposed to the dangers of the scary world of adventuring for exactly as many minutes in a day as you choose to be, and not one second more.
This whole business with regaining spells twice a day or what have you is one colossal red herring.
Um, guys, the point is not that you use rope trick to regain spells more than once a day. That's crazy; no one is suggesting that (except you two, apparently), it's never been considered legal, and it's certainly not the source of rope trick's brokenness.
The reason the spell is broken is because you regain spells, go out and nova things for 15 minutes, and then spend the rest of the day just hanging out. And then when it comes time to sleep, or if anything threatening comes your way, you climb into the rope trick and sleep / relax in there.
To go back to my previous Ravenloft example, one of the things that are supposed to make that adventure scary is that spending the night in the castle is anywhere from spooky to terrifying; all manner of things roam the halls of Ravenloft at night, and they will come upon you while you sleep, quietly subdue whoever's on watch, and feast on your delicious blood / life energy / etc.
But if you've got rope trick, then all of that is moot. Anytime you feel like not exploring anymore, you just plop yourself down wherever you are and hang out, and when it's time to sleep, you all climb into the extradimensional space and sleep soundly, knowing that you're immune to anything and everything that might walk by. Heck, you can prepare three rope tricks (or make some scrolls) and have 24 hours of coverage at level 8! You are exposed to the dangers of the scary world of adventuring for exactly as many minutes in a day as you choose to be, and not one second more.
This whole business with regaining spells twice a day or what have you is one colossal red herring.
Ah, well... that isn't broken at all then.
That is exactly what the spell does, creates a little extra dimensional hiding spot.
You are saying that the spell is problematic for doing exactly what it is supposed to do? I just don't see it.
Exactly how much do people get done in 5 minutes? And how fun is it to spend, literally the entire day, sitting in an empty void with nothing to do? And who in their right mind would ever do that all the time? Or... like, ever?
Every minute you spend sitting on your butt doing absolutely nothing is a minute the world continues to tick on by, stuff happens while PCs waste time. Usually it is 'bad stuff'.
And... the rope trick can be spotted, too. "The rope cannot be removed or hidden." So it isn't exactly the best possible way to hide. It is useful, certainly... but hardly problematic.
Bad guys can just crawl on up into your rope trick while the party is all fast asleep. And then more 'bad stuff' happens.
Exactly how much do people get done in 5 minutes?
Quite a bit, considering that 5-15 minutes is enough to cast all of your short-duration buffs and have several big fights, if you can get to them quickly enough. (Which, past a certain level, is trivial. Especially in a dungeon.)
My Kingmaker group cleared a small dungeon in less than 10 minutes recently. It was maybe 3-5 fights, of which a couple were large-ish.
And how fun is it to spend, literally the entire day, sitting in an empty void with nothing to do?
Who cares?
"How much fun (for the characters) is it to do this overpowered thing" is not any kind of a good argument. If the overpowered thing provides a massive advantage, then the players will do it. It's not like they're the ones who have to sit there the whole day; the characters are sitting there the whole day, while in real life, only as much time passes as it takes to say "we sit in the rope trick the whole day".
Besides, maybe they play cards. Maybe the bard entertains them all with songs. Maybe they get real creative with the munchkinry and the wizard scribes some scrolls while the archer fletches some arrows. Sky's the limit!
And who in their right mind would ever do that all the time? Or... like, ever?
Many people, much of the time. This is a thing people do.
Every minute you spend sitting on your butt doing absolutely nothing is a minute the world continues to tick on by, stuff happens while PCs waste time. Usually it is 'bad stuff'.
Usually irrelevant if it's a dungeon. (Most dungeons aren't very reactive.) And in general, not all adventures are that time-constrained.
And even if you are time-constrained, the constraint often is: how many big, buffed boss fights can you get done in a day? Continuing to adventure and generally walk around after you've expended your daily resources doesn't help you get more big fights done in a single day (in fact it increases the probability that you'll get into a fight and lose due to lack of resources, and death really cuts into your schedule) so you lose nothing, time-wise, by safely hiding in a rope trick.
And... the rope trick can be spotted, too. "The rope cannot be removed or hidden." So it isn't exactly the best possible way to hide. It is useful, certainly... but hardly problematic.
Well, keep in mind this wasn't true in 3.5. So yes, Pathfinder nerfed it a bit. (Although see my comments earlier in the thread about cutting the rope and so forth.)
Bad guys can just crawl on up into your rope trick while the party is all fast asleep. And then more 'bad stuff' happens.
Obviously you put someone on watch. Come on.
And since only one person can climb the rope at a time, and they can't even see the extradimensional window (and you CAN see them coming), it's almost trivially easy to surprise them with a nice gang-up the moment they poke their head into the space. After the first orc pokes his head up into nowhere, is promptly murdered, and falls off the rope, his face and head mangled nearly to unrecognizability with a combination of blades and spell blasts... how eager will the other orcs be to proceed? (And even if they are, you can go ahead and keep murdering them, too.)
Climbing up into a rope trick with the intent of assaulting the occupants is pretty much the worst idea, in short. Now, if you'd said: "A cleric comes by and dispels the rope trick" — ok, then we have a more interesting scenario. Still not spell-nerfingly catastrophic — but interesting.
Oh, and:
That is exactly what the spell does, creates a little extra dimensional hiding spot.
You are saying that the spell is problematic for doing exactly what it is supposed to do? I just don't see it.
The point isn't that the spell is problematic for doing exactly what it's supposed to do (like, uh, almost all spells...), the point is that what the spell does is inherently problematic.
Oh, and:
The point isn't that the spell is problematic for doing exactly what it's supposed to do (like, uh, almost all spells...), the point is that what the spell does is inherently problematic.That is exactly what the spell does, creates a little extra dimensional hiding spot.
You are saying that the spell is problematic for doing exactly what it is supposed to do? I just don't see it.
See also earlier in the thread, where we discussed what RT was originally intended for, and how unproblematic it was. (Arguably even UP.) Nowadays, its best and one OP use is short-circuiting the 4-encounters-per-day paradigm that the game is nominally balanced upon.
And as a side note, I just love how this thread has become a RT debate rather than a 'Let's fix broken spells' discussion. Let's partay like it's 2000!
And as a side note, I just love how this thread has become a RT debate rather than a 'Let's fix broken spells' discussion. Let's partay like it's 2000!
Right you are. Let us waste no more breath on rope trick. Instead:
Other things that need fixed.
I think that spells that grant immunity to things should go. Pretty much all of them. (I am open to individual exceptions, but can't think of any offhand.)
I refer to spells such as:
freedom of movement
death ward
mind blank
In 3.5, these made you outright immune to grappling, death effects and energy drain, and mind-affecting effects and most divinations, respectively.
Pathfinder did a bit of nerfing. Death ward now makes you immune only to negative energy, not death effects (against which it only provides a save); mind blank gives a bonus to saves against mind-affecting. Freedom of movement still makes you immune to grappling.
I say all these spells should be nerfed; they should grant immunity to nothing. Spells, especially if they last a minute per level, 10 minutes per level, or 24 hours, should not just make you immune to things. Immunities are uninteresting; they just eliminate a whole swath of possible tactics. They disregard the relative power levels of opponents; they contribute to the annoying issue of fights with casters always, tediously, opening with dispels.
At a certain level, you are of course going to go into every major battle with freedom of movement, which means that grappling is entirely eliminated as a category of threat; many mid-to-high level creatures have grapple-based powers, which are all rendered entirely moot by this spell. You don't have to adjust your tactics to compensate; you don't have to plan with them in mind; you just cast this one buff, as part of your standard buff routine, and put it out of your mind. Mind blank? Of course you have it on; put it on your martials, and now an entire massive category of threats (all mind-affecting spells, of which there are lots and lots and lots) is eliminated from consideration. Expect any chance at all of facing undead? Death ward yourself, just in case. Why not? Now a whole swath of creatures can't harm you, at all, with their primary, defining powers.
Instead, these spells should function as either bonuses to saves, or buffers, or some combination thereof. Freedom of movement might give a +8 bonus to CMD and EA vs. grapples, for instance. Death ward, rather than granting immunity to negative energy, might function more like 3.0 negative energy protection, where the warded creature may roll a check against the attack, which, if successful, negates it (and deals positive energy damage to the attacker). Or it could be a buffer, similar to protection from energy, being discharged after some number of negative energy attacks. And so forth. I don't know, I'm just throwing out ideas. The point is, outright immunities: no.
...Other things that need fixed.
I think that spells that grant immunity to things should go. Pretty much all of them. (I am open to individual exceptions, but can't think of any offhand.)...
I agree, but I think you may not be thinking far enough. I think there should be no (or at lest as few as possible) absolutes with magic, everything should give a save or an opposed roll.
For instance the Invisibility spell, why does this need to make you perfectly see through? In many video games and movies there is a blur where the invisible thing is. This would be better represented by a big bonus to your stealth skill, maybe caster stat+bonus based on level of the spell. True sight would be a bonus to perception. Magic missile would do higher dice damage but would need a roll to hit, maybe using your caster level in place of BAB. Fear spells would give a bonus to a intimidation skill check.
I think intimidation needs to be slightly reworked for the last one to work fully. I remember once trying to look up rules on how to handle players trying to intimidate each other. I only found the ToB rules, but they don't help those without intimidate from what I remember. Combining all the rules is the best bet in my book. Everyone adds their level to intimidate or what they are using to defend against it. Defender may choose to use either their will save or intimidate as standard, feats ect may add other things. For every X points the loser fails against intimidate (not will) they progress one step farther into fear (shaken -> frightened -> panicked). If the defender was using intimidate and won then things might get interesting for him, I put loser there for a reason. every Y rounds (based on level of winner maybe?) the fear level drops by one step until its gone, or maybe a will save to drop it by one step. IDK. These are just some Ideas I've had floating in my head for a while.