So, inspired by the following article:
http://4thmaster.wordpress.com/2014/01/11/fixing-3-x-casters/
I'm working on adapting a few problematic spell effects along the lines proposed in the article. I'm looking for a list of such problematic spells, as well as a good definition WHY their original description is problematic. If anybody has fix ideas, it would be fun too.
For the moment, I want to do 2 things:
-No eliminating spells
-Still keeping modified spells relevant
Spell: Teleport
Problem: Considered to make movement issues negligible, especially into semi-unknown areas.
Adaptation: I plan to modify the familiarity method, and create the following item:
Coordinate scroll: This scroll can be prepared by any spellcaster that has teleport in it's know spells or on it's spell list. For the cost of a 3rd level scroll, you can prepare a coordinate scroll that allows you to teleport to the location the scroll represents in 1 hour, as if it had been "studied carefully".
Very familiar: Does not change; requires a minimum of 1 week spent in the specific area.
Studied carefully: only applies when using coordinate scrolls.
All other types of familiarity do not exist anymore.
Spell: Blood money
Problem: makes material components too easy to obtain, since strength is too easy to obtain.
Adaptation: The strength damage is obtained from your "base" strength score, not including enhancement, inherent, size, profane or sacred bonuses to strength. If you take more than you base strength score in strength damage, you die. For example, a wizard with a base strength score of 10 cannot produce more than 4499 GP of material component.
(thinking of aditional penalties, like being unable to move when under the effect of the spell)
Spell: Paragon surge:
Problem: turns spontaneous spellcasters into prepared spellcasters
Adaptation: you are allowed any feat you qualify for EXCEPT expanded arcana & extra magus arcana (spell blending).
Spell: Dominate person/monster/animal;
Problem: Pretty harsh if used on players, too powerful when used to create an army of slaves.
Adaptation: As the original spell, but every dominated creature gets a save 1/round (in combat) and 1/hour (outside of combat). If forced to do an act against it's nature still gets the +2 bonus to the save.
So, I'm looking for any other pertinent spells that have caused problems to others. I await your input.
Want to chime in, but this cold of mine is killing my brain cells. Will pop in again when I have the chance!
Ok, so charm person might be problematic, as mentioned by atarlost. A few notes:
1) I use the diplomacy rules created by the Rich Burlew, that greatly limits what diplomacy can do.
http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html
So how would I modify charm?
Spell: Charm
Problem: Some people use as mind control
Adaptation: gives a flat +10 to diplomacy (kinda like disguise self).
Holy crap, that article is so bad. A DM instituting a set of suggestions like that would make me really angry. I would definitely not play in a game like that.
The only thing I like is the "ley lines" modification to teleport. Otherwise... UGH.
However, I do agree that there are problematic spells. When I'm not hurrying to catch a bus, I'll see about a list, with some suggestions.
Holy crap, that article is so bad. A DM instituting a set of suggestions like that would make me really angry. I would definitely not play in a game like that.
The only thing I like is the "ley lines" modification to teleport. Otherwise... UGH.
However, I do agree that there are problematic spells. When I'm not hurrying to catch a bus, I'll see about a list, with some suggestions.
Some of the ideas are good, some pathfinder already use, some arent great. It's not the best, but it does make the point that the problem isnt in HOW casters cast but in some of the spells themselves (most of which suck). (Note: I will admit I disregard some of the non-spell related suggestions).
A few that have me worried:
-Simulacrum/Clone/Animate Dead/Planar Binding: never seen them used, know they can be powerful but seem to have few limits. Not sure what to say about them.
What do you think of my proposals? Myself, I tried to turn teleport into more of a "train" (IE, brings you to fixed points you define yourself, or by others) rather than a cannon that may or may not send you where you want.
What do you think of my proposals? [...]
Let's see...
Teleport, coordinate scrolls: I confess I don't understand the mechanic. Could you clarify, maybe provide an example?
My immediate reaction is: this is too complex / too hard to understand a mechanic. I like simple, straightforward solutions.
Blood money: ban it.
Paragon surge: ban it.
There's no need for complex solutions to spells that aren't compelling enough to keep and do nothing interesting but add power to casters.
Charm, Dominate: requires more thought. Rich Burlew's Diplomacy rules may be part of the solution; I sort-of-use them myself.
s an example for coordinate scrolls: You basically create a scroll that marks a spot. It is HARD to be very familiar with a spot (IE, it has to be your home or something) but the coordinate scroll is basically a marker for an area you've been for a shorter period (for example, you wander a lot? Never stay somewhere long enough to become very familiar? well, you need the scroll.)
And I want to avoid banning, if only because I dont like removing variety.
s an example for coordinate scrolls: You basically create a scroll that marks a spot. It is HARD to be very familiar with a spot (IE, it has to be your home or something) but the coordinate scroll is basically a marker for an area you've been for a shorter period (for example, you wander a lot? Never stay somewhere long enough to become very familiar? well, you need the scroll.)
And I want to avoid banning, if only because I dont like removing variety.
Questions:
1. What is required to create the scroll? Where do you have to be? On the spot? How long does it take? Does it cost anything?
2. What do you do with the scroll then? Do you take it with you? Leave it on the spot?
3. How long does the scroll last if unused? Forever? What about if used? Is it expended?
As for banning... I generally agree with not removing variety... but those two spells don't add variety in any meaningful sense. They just add power. They're not interesting. (In my opinion.)
And there's a bigger issue: if you commit to not removing variety, and also allow all Paizo material, then you make yourself a slave to the continual addition of variety (or "variety"). At some point, more variety is too much. Also, there lies power creep.
I think you can say "I will stick to core, and not remove variety", or you can say "I will allow non-core material, but I will be selective about all material I allow, core included"; but saying "I will allow all material, nonselectively" is setting yourself up for trouble.
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Spell: Teleport
Problem: Considered to make movement issues negligible, especially into semi-unknown areas.
Adaptation: I plan to modify the familiarity method, and create the following item:Coordinate scroll: This scroll can be prepared by any spellcaster that has teleport in it's know spells or on it's spell list. For the cost of a 3rd level scroll, you can prepare a coordinate scroll that allows you to teleport to the location the scroll represents in 1 hour, as if it had been "studied carefully".
Very familiar: Does not change; requires a minimum of 1 week spent in the specific area.
Studied carefully: only applies when using coordinate scrolls.
All other types of familiarity do not exist anymore.
I can't put my finger on why, but I don't think I'd care for this one as a DM. Maybe because things requiring money aren't much of a deterrent to high level characters...I dunno. Still, if it works for you I say use it!
A couple of other teleport ideas:
1) Teleportation is blocked by thick wood, metal, and stone. Prevents PCs from teleporting directly into the BBEG's lair to buff-gank him, from using teleportation as a panic button, and explains why castles are still relevant in a world with teleportation.
2) Casting times of long range teleportations are 5 minutes, or however long the longest-lasting buff spell is. Prevents characters from scry-buff-teleport, and from using teleportation as a panic button.
Spell: Blood money
Problem: makes material components too easy to obtain, since strength is too easy to obtain.
Adaptation: The strength damage is obtained from your "base" strength score, not including enhancement, inherent, size, profane or sacred bonuses to strength. If you take more than you base strength score in strength damage, you die. For example, a wizard with a base strength score of 10 cannot produce more than 4499 GP of material component.(thinking of aditional penalties, like being unable to move when under the effect of the spell)
In my ideal game, costly components would never be used to balance spells...but I think this is a reasonable fix for the game we do have.
I wouldn't have a problem with simply banning this one either, but hey, it's all good. :)
Spell: Paragon surge:
Problem: turns spontaneous spellcasters into prepared spellcastersAdaptation: you are allowed any feat you qualify for EXCEPT expanded arcana & extra magus arcana (spell blending).
Not really familiar with this one, but I think it's another case of "Spells that allow players to comb thru the srd are bound to be broken sooner or later." Ideally, spells should never ever do this, but I think simply banning access to the problem feats is a reasonable solution.
Spell: Dominate person/monster/animal;
Problem: Pretty harsh if used on players, too powerful when used to create an army of slaves.
Adaptation: As the original spell, but every dominated creature gets a save 1/round (in combat) and 1/hour (outside of combat). If forced to do an act against it's nature still gets the +2 bonus to the save.
I'd nerf it even harder, but I love it!
Holy crap, that article is so bad. A DM instituting a set of suggestions like that would make me really angry. I would definitely not play in a game like that.
We'll probably never meet, so I won't take your commentary personal-like. As williamoak says, the important part is fixing spells, rather than fixing how casters cast their spells.
A few of my own suggestions:
1. I'm of the opinion that spell durations should be set, rather than scaling with caster level. Scaling duration creates spells that are essentially encounter-length at low levels and day-long as high levels; and this is a big contributor to the Quadratic in LFQW. Also I think scaling duration is a dick-waving fest for casters, to no real purpose. "Mine lasts for 10 minutes!" "Yeah, well mine lasts for 11 minutes!"
2. I see PF edited out the vague reference to 'hazards' in the rope trick spell, which is a step forward. (How many inane debates did we endure during 3.x involving the interpretation of 'hazard'?) Now if only the Paizo team had added a simple stipulation to RT and similar spells, to at least pay lip service to the 4-encounters-per-day paradigm that the game is supposedly balanced around. A simple stipulation like...“Extradimensional spaces are filled with discordant energy. Characters who rest within an extradimensional space do not gain the benefits of doing so.”
A few notes: my original modification for teleportation could VERY easily remove the cost. However, what my modification does is that it's impossible to go somewhere you've never been. Unless another caster prepared the coordinates for you. FOr example, you MIGHT be able to teleport into the BBEGs lair... if you convince someone to betray him and prepare the coordinates.
I still think "teleport" should be usable as a panic button, so I dont feel it's necessary to increase casting time.
As for "rope trick", I'm rather uncertain how to treat it. I dont see it as problematic. If the players use it in a "dangerous" place (like a dungeon), I would consider a rope hanging out in midair pretty easy to spot. They would always have a trap waiting for them if the decided to rest there. Need to think on it
For the moment I wont concern myself with durations much. I'll have to think of it, because rythms of play vary a lot. I've already had 4-5 encounters within an equivalent to one hour, or no encounters at all in a whole day. So timing is iffy.
And for paragon surge, I would probably make it so that it cant be used for any feats that allow extra spells. Might need some work. It's a useful spell, but any player using it would need to have a list of feats first.
In any case, more reflections for me.
A few notes: my original modification for teleportation could VERY easily remove the cost. However, what my modification does is that it's impossible to go somewhere you've never been. Unless another caster prepared the coordinates for you. FOr example, you MIGHT be able to teleport into the BBEGs lair... if you convince someone to betray him and prepare the coordinates.
I see your point. I say try it out in game!
As for "rope trick", I'm rather uncertain how to treat it. I dont see it as problematic. If the players use it in a "dangerous" place (like a dungeon), I would consider a rope hanging out in midair pretty easy to spot. They would always have a trap waiting for them if the decided to rest there. Need to think on it.
Oops, didn't notice the "rope can't be removed or hidden" addition to the PF rope trick. It's an improvement, but still, when it comes to something as fundamental as the 4-encounter-per-day 'balance' paradigm, I don't want any extra-dim spell to create any opening for the hide-and-seek minigame, which I just don't want to deal with as a DM. Sure, if I'm always at the top of my DM game, I can find counters for the illusion the wizard casts to disguise the rope, or when he simply casts RT in an obscure and out-of-view area, or when the ranger gets clever and makes the rope up to look like a vine in the forest the party is traveling thru...or when the wizard gets high enough level to cast an extra-dim spell that doesn't even have a rope. But I don't enjoy that minigame, so I'd rather just say "No. You. Can't. Period."
YMMV, of course.
A couple of other teleport ideas:
1) Teleportation is blocked by thick wood, metal, and stone. Prevents PCs from teleporting directly into the BBEG's lair to buff-gank him, from using teleportation as a panic button, and explains why castles are still relevant in a world with teleportation.
So... you can't teleport out of your house. Or into your friend's house. You can only teleport from outdoors to outdoors. But wait. Isn't there wood, metal, or stone between any two sufficiently distant outdoor locations? Like, trees? Rocks? The ground? Are we handwaving all of that away?
2) Casting times of long range teleportations are 5 minutes, or however long the longest-lasting buff spell is. Prevents characters from scry-buff-teleport, and from using teleportation as a panic button.
This has potential, but I get a "this will surely have issues that I can't think of right now" feeling from it. Bears consideration.
But I don't enjoy that minigame, so I'd rather just say "No. You. Can't. Period."
Can't what? Can't cast the spell?
2. I see PF edited out the vague reference to 'hazards' in the rope trick spell, which is a step forward. (How many inane debates did we endure during 3.x involving the interpretation of 'hazard'?)
To what do you refer, here? I've never seen such a debate in any group I've been in, and I am curious what it could be about. Is it the bit about taking extradimensional spaces into the rope trick?
So... you can't teleport out of your house. Or into your friend's house. You can only teleport from outdoors to outdoors. But wait. Isn't there wood, metal, or stone between any two sufficiently distant outdoor locations? Like, trees? Rocks? The ground? Are we handwaving all of that away?A couple of other teleport ideas:
1) Teleportation is blocked by thick wood, metal, and stone. Prevents PCs from teleporting directly into the BBEG's lair to buff-gank him, from using teleportation as a panic button, and explains why castles are still relevant in a world with teleportation.
You're picking a certain thickness, say 1 meter, and ruling that casters can't teleport into enclosed structures with that thickness of material. So a wizard could teleport over a mountain range, but not into the dwarven stronghold under the mountain.
Can't what? Can't cast the spell?But I don't enjoy that minigame, so I'd rather just say "No. You. Can't. Period."
Gain the benefits of resting while in an extra-dim space. Did you not read my suggestion?
2. I see PF edited out the vague reference to 'hazards' in the rope trick spell, which is a step forward. (How many inane debates did we endure during 3.x involving the interpretation of 'hazard'?)To what do you refer, here? I've never seen such a debate in any group I've been in, and I am curious what it could be about. Is it the bit about taking extradimensional spaces into the rope trick?
That's the one! I remember several lengthy debates about RT before 2008, in which some DMs would say "I can just adjudicate those unspecified hazards if my players get clever with RT," while other gamers would say "Making up house rules on the fly like that is a really dick thing to do! And also, what if your players hide their bag of holding outside of the RT?" There was more to the endless back-and-forth, but that was the gist of it.
You're picking a certain thickness, say 1 meter, and ruling that casters can't teleport into enclosed structures with that thickness of material. So a wizard could teleport over a mountain range, but not into the dwarven stronghold under the mountain.
"Enclosed", you say. How enclosed does "enclosed" have to be? Parapet of a castle: not enclosed? House with open windows: enclosed? Cavern system with no doors, open to the surface in places: enclosed? Interior of a gazebo (with thick walls): not enclosed?
Gain the benefits of resting while in an extra-dim space. Did you not read my suggestion?Can't what? Can't cast the spell?But I don't enjoy that minigame, so I'd rather just say "No. You. Can't. Period."
I read it, I just didn't make the connection to the discussion of hazards and whatnot. I get it now.
That's the one! I remember several lengthy debates about RT before 2008, in which some DMs would say "I can just adjudicate those unspecified hazards if my players get clever with RT," while other gamers would say "Making up house rules on the fly like that is a really dick thing to do! And also, what if your players hide their bag of holding outside of the RT?" There was more to the endless back-and-forth, but that was the gist of it.2. I see PF edited out the vague reference to 'hazards' in the rope trick spell, which is a step forward. (How many inane debates did we endure during 3.x involving the interpretation of 'hazard'?)To what do you refer, here? I've never seen such a debate in any group I've been in, and I am curious what it could be about. Is it the bit about taking extradimensional spaces into the rope trick?
It seems to me that a DM is well within his right to point out the "hazards" phrasing the first time the PCs ever use rope trick; and if they subsequently use it without stowing their bags of holding elsewhere, to hit the party with a planar rift — the closest rule-covered situation, after all, is the bag-hole interaction.
That said, if I were starting a campaign now, I'd ban rope trick outright. I admit there are modifications of it that would make it balanced — yours possibly among them (I haven't thought about it hard enough to make up my mind) — but unless it becomes clear to me what value the spell has other than a place to rest safely, I would simply avoid the work of balancing it, and just toss it.
"Enclosed", you say. How enclosed does "enclosed" have to be? Parapet of a castle: not enclosed? House with open windows: enclosed? Cavern system with no doors, open to the surface in places: enclosed? Interior of a gazebo (with thick walls): not enclosed?
You're picking a certain thickness, say 1 meter, and ruling that casters can't teleport into enclosed structures with that thickness of material. So a wizard could teleport over a mountain range, but not into the dwarven stronghold under the mountain.
Yes, yes, yes, and...er, gazebos are by definition open on all sides, so I don't know how to answer that last one. I'm being imprecise here because I've never actually used this house rule; if you did, presumably you'd be more precise. The point is to create a world where people know how to build fortifications in such a way as to block teleportation. And a campaign in which you, the DM, don't have to worry about the PCs teleporting directly into the BBEG's throne room.
That said, if I were starting a campaign now, I'd ban rope trick outright. I admit there are modifications of it that would make it balanced — yours possibly among them (I haven't thought about it hard enough to make up my mind) — but unless it becomes clear to me what value the spell has other than a place to rest safely, I would simply avoid the work of balancing it, and just toss it.
I personally see nothing wrong with simply banning RT, and similiar spells, but for the purpose of this thread I'm going with williamoak's wishes.
As to what value RT has beyond breaking the game's already shaky balance -- it was originally merely another of the wizard's tricks, which may or may not have proven useful on any given day. It lasted mere minutes, so it could be a temporary escape from threats that didn't know the party's exact location, or as a means to spy on monsters who wandered by the invisible door, or even as a means to reach otherwise unreachable ledges and surfaces.
As to what value RT has beyond breaking the game's already shaky balance -- it was originally merely another of the wizard's tricks, which may or may not have proven useful on any given day. It lasted mere minutes, so it could be a temporary escape from threats that didn't know the party's exact location, or as a means to spy on monsters who wandered by the invisible door, or even as a means to reach otherwise unreachable ledges and surfaces.
Hm, yeah, that all seems pretty situationally useful (and open to creative use, which is good). I think nerfing the duration would be a simple, straightforward, and therefore (imo) desirable fix.
Yes, yes, yes, and...er, gazebos are by definition open on all sides, so I don't know how to answer that last one. I'm being imprecise here because I've never actually used this house rule; if you did, presumably you'd be more precise. The point is to create a world where people know how to build fortifications in such a way as to block teleportation. And a campaign in which you, the DM, don't have to worry about the PCs teleporting directly into the BBEG's throne room.
My point there wasn't so much to ask you to peg specific cases (although just what architectural details demarcate the boundary between "house with large, open windows" and "gazebo" is an obvious remaining question), but to point out that your proposed solution requires the DM to come up with such details. I am not a fan of "finicky" solutions, ones that force me to make such detailed determinations, and to rethink and redesign things as basic as how houses are built; plus, do you really look forward to having your players ask you for the precise architectural descriptions of every location they find themselves in? I sure don't. I far prefer simple, "cut-the-knot" style solutions.
As to what value RT has beyond breaking the game's already shaky balance -- it was originally merely another of the wizard's tricks, which may or may not have proven useful on any given day. It lasted mere minutes, so it could be a temporary escape from threats that didn't know the party's exact location, or as a means to spy on monsters who wandered by the invisible door, or even as a means to reach otherwise unreachable ledges and surfaces.Hm, yeah, that all seems pretty situationally useful (and open to creative use, which is good). I think nerfing the duration would be a simple, straightforward, and therefore (imo) desirable fix.
Others have suggested the same fix; I personally don't, for two reasons. First, I think it makes RT a little too circumstantial -- I mean what are the chances that the party notices a wandering enemy, concocts a hide or spy plan involving RT, the wizard casts it, and then the enemy wanders by before the duration ends, dumping the party directly into the lap of said enemies? Despite the overall balance problems that resulted from 3e, I think the 3e team was right to boost spell durations like RT.
Also, without the 'cannot gainfully rest' stipulation, I'd expect savvy players to look for exploits involving duration-buffs. I don't know if PF does, but 3.5 had a metamagic feat for increasing durations to 24 hours.
Yes, yes, yes, and...er, gazebos are by definition open on all sides, so I don't know how to answer that last one. I'm being imprecise here because I've never actually used this house rule; if you did, presumably you'd be more precise. The point is to create a world where people know how to build fortifications in such a way as to block teleportation. And a campaign in which you, the DM, don't have to worry about the PCs teleporting directly into the BBEG's throne room.My point there wasn't so much to ask you to peg specific cases (although just what architectural details demarcate the boundary between "house with large, open windows" and "gazebo" is an obvious remaining question), but to point out that your proposed solution requires the DM to come up with such details. I am not a fan of "finicky" solutions, ones that force me to make such detailed determinations, and to rethink and redesign things as basic as how houses are built; plus, do you really look forward to having your players ask you for the precise architectural descriptions of every location they find themselves in? I sure don't. I far prefer simple, "cut-the-knot" style solutions.
Ha, that's funny. 'Finicky' is exactly how I think of your RT solution. Anyway, as a definitive answer to your teleport question, I'd personally rule it thus: Any structure covered by material at all angles, give or take a few normal sized windows and doors, blocks teleportation. Basically, if old cell phones might lose bars in it, teleport's got no bars either.
So gazebos and forests are a go, but castles and dwarven strongholds are safe. A wizard might be able to teleport past the first 10-meter-high door of a giant's stronghold, but no further. When in doubt, I'd let the wizard have his teleport trick, because nobody in the game world who wants to block teleportation is going to take any chances with ambiguous architecture; they're going to build walls and ceilings around everywhere of importance!
Wait, banning things is finicky? Or do you mean duration-nerfing? I don't actually think there's a way to boost things to 24hrs in PF, by the way, but if there is, then that's where the actual problem lies — balancing things by making them short-duration should be a thing, and an ability that lets you ignore the duration limitations of a broad spectrum of things is not balanced.
Wait, banning things is finicky? Or do you mean duration-nerfing?
Sorry, I meant your 'I'll just invoke RT's hazard clause if the party takes their bag of holding inside the RT' solution. I think it's finicky because it simply encourages players to get more creative in their effort to break the 4-encounter-day paradigm. (As do all "I'll just come up with various reasons why my PCs shouldn't rest in RT" solutions.)
Apparently it works for other DMs, but it's too finicky for me.
For teleport, make the trajectory require an unbroken line, arched or straight, and that the casting spot and landing spot must be open to the sky if the trajectory is arched (Or have a suitable path in some other way, any completely unbroken curved/arch line).
For Paragon Surge, either remove the feat option from the spell completely, or make it a choice between a small preselected list, like; Improved Initiative, Toughness, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Weapon Proficiency: Longsword or Longbow, Weapon Focus: Longsword or Longbow. Done.
There are waaaaay too many feats to abuse this on, it is just a bad idea, totally fails when implemented as-is.
What is wrong with Rope Trick? I'm not sure I've seen this abused. It can help provide a safer environment to rest? But... why is that bad?
Wait, banning things is finicky? Or do you mean duration-nerfing?Sorry, I meant your 'I'll just invoke RT's hazard clause if the party takes their bag of holding inside the RT' solution. I think it's finicky because it simply encourages players to get more creative in their effort to break the 4-encounter-day paradigm. (As do all "I'll just come up with various reasons why my PCs shouldn't rest in RT" solutions.)
Apparently it works for other DMs, but it's too finicky for me.
Heh. Yeah, I don't actually advocate solving rope trick that way; it's just the simplest way to solve it without house ruling.
My favorite rope trick solution was one I instituted in a Ravenloft (original module, not setting) game I ran. You see,
So when the PCs cast a rope trick and climbed in, I told them they start choking. Turns out (thus I ruled), the mist won't diffuse past the dimensional boundary. There sure was weeping and gnashing of teeth that day, I tell ya what.
Make Blood Money cost 1 Str per 100g.
Charm - Target cannot attack caster. Is treated as helpful per diplomacy. Gives +10 to diplomacy checks to convince to do something/ request aid etc. per diplomacy rules. (Will not do anything a regular Helpful attitude uncharmed NPC wouldn't)
Dominate is supposed to be nasty! The only thing I'd suggest changing is making it only function while the caster is consciously capable of controlling the target. And if they die/get incapacitated/sleep/etc then the effect is suppressed.
What is wrong with Rope Trick? I'm not sure I've seen this abused. It can help provide a safer environment to rest? But... why is that bad?
It's bad when the caster gets to 8th level -- or sooner if he extends the duration -- because it creates yet another opportunity for the 5 minute workday to happen. If the DM is always at the top of his game, there are stopgap solutions to prevent this problem...but it's yet another detail for the DM to keep track of.
Also note that there are other spells which create the same problem; RT is just the poster boy of its kind because it's the lowest-level.
What is wrong with Rope Trick? I'm not sure I've seen this abused. It can help provide a safer environment to rest? But... why is that bad?It's bad when the caster gets to 8th level -- or sooner if he extends the duration -- because it creates yet another opportunity for the 5 minute workday to happen. If the DM is always at the top of his game, there are stopgap solutions to prevent this problem...but it's yet another detail for the DM to keep track of.
Also note that there are other spells which create the same problem; RT is just the poster boy of its kind because it's the lowest-level.
I have no idea what yall mean by 5 minute work day. Or how rope trick helps make one possible.
Do you mean like, people hide in it all day except for 5 minutes?
I'm lost.
If my PCs hid in an extra dimensional space all day, every day... the world would just pass them by, so to speak. Everything keeps going, whether they wanna participate or not. They'd be hermits if they did this too long, and get disconnected from current events, adventures with even a semblance of time sensitivity would fail, rumors of their disappearance would circulate if they had notoriety... seems all bad imo.
For charm person, we've simply made the effect that the target becomes friendly but removed the cha checks and mind control.
I have no idea what yall mean by 5 minute work day. Or how rope trick helps make one possible.
In general, a 5MWD is when the PCs -- for whatever reason -- have just one encounter during one adventuring ('work') day. This allows clever casters to blow their best spells during those brief few moments, steamroll the encounter, rest up to regain their spells, and then do it all over again. Sometimes it happens 'naturally' due to the nature of the adventure; many DMs find it difficult to justify multiple encounters within one day while the party is traveling through, say, an expanse of wilderness.
And sometimes the players get clever, and realize they can create easy 5MWDs with Rope Trick. And again, there are stopgap solutions the DM can use to prevent this, but it requires him to always be at the top of his game. Not every adventure is time-sensitive, after all.
Unlike the it's 3.5 predecessor the rope can not be removed or hidden. So it a great opportunity for the GM to set up an ambush when the PC's emerge or dispel the rope trick to force an encounter.
Also remember abilities like scent which most monsters use to track down their prey.
This requires the would-be ambushers to know enough about magic to know that the rope hanging from nowhere is a rope trick, and not just a rope. Sure, a troll might watch the rope hanging from the air for a few minutes, but would it spend hours watching it?
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This requires the would-be ambushers to know enough about magic to know that the rope hanging from nowhere is a rope trick, and not just a rope. Sure, a troll might watch the rope hanging from the air for a few minutes, but would it spend hours watching it?Unlike the it's 3.5 predecessor the rope can not be removed or hidden. So it a great opportunity for the GM to set up an ambush when the PC's emerge or dispel the rope trick to force an encounter.
Also remember abilities like scent which most monsters use to track down their prey.
Perhaps, if the troll finds his slaughtered brethren and the scent trails leads back to a mysterious rope. If he didn't sit and wait the area would a least be on alert.
Yes, "you can't hide the rope" is a limitation but it's an extremely limited one and one that's more prone to conflict (malicious gm vs player entitlement etc bla bla bla) than other potential limitations.
Rope trick should have had a duration of 10 min/level, but the rope could be hidden. That would make it more powerful for almost all uses except resting.
Night attacks aren't dickery, they are a completely reasonable threat when you're resting in enemy territory.
Meanwhile, the whole "the rope cannot be removed or hidden" stipulation is actually kinda strange, when you think about it*. Ok, so 16,000 pounds of force pulls the rope free. Then what? Does the spell end when that happens? Or what? What if, instead of pulling at the rope, you cut it? It's a regular rope, right? Just take your sword to it, cut it off? Or is the rope invulnerable somehow? If not, how close to the dimensional boundary can you make that cut? Can you just have a millimeter of rope dangling out? That seems like it'd be hard to spot, yeah?
*As is most magic-related rules text that says "you can't X", rather than "if X happens, then Y results".
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And what uses does rope trick have besides resting?
Rope Trick is one of the few things that can give the players some assurance they can get a good night's sleep and taking it away is just going to make them assume you're planning night attack dickery.
Are you kidding...
Off the top of my head
I use it to avoid a avalanche
I use it to hide bodies
I use to set fire to methane clogged sewer to kill enormous carrion crawlers (party actually did this to me.
And what uses does rope trick have besides resting?
- Getting lots of people into a tiny place
- Hiding, whether from dangerous enemies or to spy- Reaching places you cannot reach otherwise
- Temporary protection from nearly any hazard
Yeah, it will no longer be on every caster's list always anymore, but it will still be a decent-to-good 2nd level spell, able to do many things mostly restricted to more niche or higher level spells; it can act as a limited Levitation, or a limited Invisibility Sphere, or as an emergency button for when things go bad.
Rope Trick is one of the few things that can give the players some assurance they can get a good night's sleep and taking it away is just going to make them assume you're planning night attack dickery.
The issue is that rope trick encourages the 5 minute workday, in which the limited-use casters can go full nova and then rest through easily providing a safe environment at any time. It thus helps further diminish the (already limited) benefit of having one's abilities available at any time.
If you play in a group where the party always adventures for a full day, waiting until the night to rest (indicated by "night attack trickery") then this nerf isn't needed, but for many parties the access to rope trick will make the difference between "explore the tomb during the day, rest during the night" and "explore the tomb one room per 8-hour period, taking a rope trick rest before going into the next".
If you play in a group where the party always adventures for a full day, waiting until the night to rest (indicated by "night attack trickery") then this nerf isn't needed, but for many parties the access to rope trick will make the difference between "explore the tomb during the day, rest during the night" and "explore the tomb one room per 8-hour period, taking a rope trick rest before going into the next".
Huh, interesting… maybe I’ve always just been house ruling without ever noticing…
But, people in my games don’t replenish powers/spells from resting more than once in the same day. Their spells are per day, not per rest period. So, unless a day has come and gone, resting is just a waste of time.
Can you even rest more than once per day? I know I can't sleep whenever I want to. Wizards require sleep to prepare spells, and clerics have to choose a specific time of day to pray for new spells.
Seems like 5-minutes workdays are a result of forgotten rules?
And FWIW I think the dangling rope is a big weakness of Rope Trick, it's far from guaranteed safety. Remember, this is a world where magic is abundant and relatively well-known.
You have to be completely and absolutely exhausted to have a second 8 sleep in one day. This would normally only happen if your very ill. Sure you can get an extra 2-4 hours if you have over worked yourself, but you wouldn't get spells for that. Maybe if your using a spell point system you could get a fraction of them back, but not spell slots as its to hard to fraction them. So yeah, I think this is a non problem...
If it is then just rule that if anything happens to the rope the connection is lost... You could just drop them back, prone if not asleep on the ground. Or if you really wanted to be mean, force a save/caster check. Fail and your stuck in where ever the pocket dimension is made, succeed and your prone around whoever messed with the rope.
And remember you don't have to know what it is to mess with a Rope Trick... If you found the rope what would you do? 'Pull it', or even 'climb it' is something I could see allot of people doing. Monsters would 'investigate' it, as in pull/push/climb (climb to follow the scent). And if they found food in one in the past they would be looking for others. And if your in the BBEG base, how high is the roof? 10? 15 ft? The rope maybe 30 ft, but if the roofs only 15ft away I could see a minion climbing it to see how its attached to the roof and if he knows that area why? Its not there normally there. If the minion knows there are intruders he is even more likely to check it out, to try and workout where you went.
Can you even rest more than once per day? I know I can't sleep whenever I want to. Wizards require sleep to prepare spells, and clerics have to choose a specific time of day to pray for new spells.
Wizards just need to sleep at some point for those 8 hours, not 8 hours straight, and refrain from activities - so they can do it (also note that a ring of susteance reduces this to 2 hours, but look at my answer to Remy). I know I have no issues catching a bit of sleep if I'm comfortable at about any time, I don't really need to be exhausted to do that. The same goes for any arcane caster. You are right about divine casters, though - they get it once every 24 hours. However, many parties have no divine casters (or at least no characters relying on divine casting as their main contribution - see ranger). When it comes to non-spell abilities that are stated to be X/day, it's not specified if it's X/day like arcane or X/day like divine; while usually, SLA's and similar seems to refer to arcane before divine, it's not specified and so would be up to GM/group interpretation.
Seems like 5-minutes workdays are a result of forgotten rules?
And FWIW I think the dangling rope is a big weakness of Rope Trick, it's far from guaranteed safety. Remember, this is a world where magic is abundant and relatively well-known.
Agreed; I primarily GM and before we house ruled it I did use that occacionally. However, the wording of the spell is quite obnoxious, in that if you go RAWy-RAW, you cannot hide the rope _in any way_ which is quite a weird statement (if you cast it behind a curtain, is it visible through the curtain? how about blind creatures? etc) or you simply rule that it can't be hidden through magical means, like casting invsibility, and then it's pretty easy to hide. So the wording is bad regardless - I'd much rather have preferred something a little more explicit and nuanced.
Huh, interesting… maybe I’ve always just been house ruling without ever noticing…But, people in my games don’t replenish powers/spells from resting more than once in the same day. Their spells are per day, not per rest period. So, unless a day has come and gone, resting is just a waste of time.
For arcane spellcasters, that's a house rule then, yes. Only spells cast within the last 8 hours are not replenished.
For arcane spellcasters, that's a house rule then, yes. Only spells cast within the last 8 hours are not replenished.
My sarch pulled up this to say about preparing spells (for wizards), and the rest required;
"To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest in order to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells."
Bold mine. Seems their spells are limited, per day. (Ie daily)
I'd imagine all the things that say they are 'per day', are actually 'per day' too. I'm not sure what sort of argument could be made for them to be used more than "per day" unless you wander into some weird time flow dimension.