Ok limit the defensive use to once per day per level or one per day per level +wis mod or whatever, and unlimited total defense use.
I think this is a happy medium.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It would be nice if the style feats had been designed to be better when used by monks in ways other than easier meeting of the prereqs.
Can you explain, then, in what universe the errata'd Crane Wing is "as attractive" as its alternatives?We were shooting to make it on par with some of the other style feats in Ultimate Combat. Whether or not we were successful I think is the point of this thread. Its pretty clear most folks here feel we fell short of the mark.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Do you think people think it fell short of other style feats, like janni style, or fell short compared to the old crane wing?
Nobody dips into a Master of Many Styles monk just for janni style, but lots of people did just for Crane Wing.
Crane Style is still the most popular feat line in the UC book. I think your balance was pretty much spot on...the whole chain was clearly superior to any other one in the book. They are not complaining because it's been brought down below other feats...they are complaining because it's been brought down from its lofty height, period.
==Aelryinth
|
| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
Crane Style is still the most popular feat line in the UC book. I think your balance was pretty much spot on...the whole chain was clearly superior to any other one in the book. They are not complaining because it's been brought down below other feats...they are complaining because it's been brought down from its lofty height, period.
==Aelryinth
It's fine to tell how you feel about Crane Wing.
It is not cool to tell how other people "really" feel about Crane Wing.
This is just as poisonous to the discussion as the insults and hyperbole. It just ticks people off.
|
|
A feat is a huge price for something very situational and this both breaks up gameplay and makes it hard to use a feat/ability effectively. Part of why the old crane wing was so nice is it automatically was effective with minimal extra work required by players or DM. If you need a degree in mathematics to get good use out of an aspect of the game then that aspect was implemented poorly.
Oh God yes. I've discussed this earlier this week with a friend and neither of us saw it making combat faster or easier to run.
User-friendliness counts for a lot. And it's something the monk desperately needs more of at the moment.
Crane Style is still the most popular feat line in the UC book. I think your balance was pretty much spot on...the whole chain was clearly superior to any other one in the book. They are not complaining because it's been brought down below other feats...they are complaining because it's been brought down from its lofty height, period.
==Aelryinth
It's fine to tell how you feel about Crane Wing.
It is not cool to tell how other people "really" feel about Crane Wing.
This is just as poisonous to the discussion as the insults and hyperbole. It just ticks people off.
Agreed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Crane Style is still the most popular feat line in the UC book. I think your balance was pretty much spot on...the whole chain was clearly superior to any other one in the book. They are not complaining because it's been brought down below other feats...they are complaining because it's been brought down from its lofty height, period.
You are under the assumption that I even thought old crane wing was good. Like the monk needs more penalties to-hit. Snake styles was and always has been better.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Crane Style is still the most popular feat line in the UC book. I think your balance was pretty much spot on...the whole chain was clearly superior to any other one in the book. They are not complaining because it's been brought down below other feats...they are complaining because it's been brought down from its lofty height, period.
==Aelryinth
Not for me. The best way to play a 'duelist' style character, was to play using either Crane or Snake style. Crane for better defense, Snake for better offense. Taking a MoMS dip allowed a character to have both once they reached higher levels.
The best Style feats were Dragon Style (pure offense), Snake Style (balanced offense and defense), and Crane Style (defense with a smattering of offense). Of notable mention is Panther Style, but that feat can be easily defeated by the enemy simply not taking the AoO, or not having Combat Reflexes, however, it's kind of the Come and Get Me, but for Monks.
A defensive character would take either Crane or Snake, with a MoMS dip, they could take both. An offensive build might take Dragon or Panther, both if they dipped MoMS. They might also mix and match to suit their needs, for instance, a Snake + Panther turns the enemies turns against them. A Dragon + Crane allowed an enemy to have a good defense (from Crane Style mostly, but Crane Wing helped) and Dragon Style kept his DPR in decent numbers (for a Monk).
Power attack would still be more useful. Probably Improved Initiative as well. I don't think we need to reduce the effectiveness of feats to place them on par with say Prone Shooter.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Crane Style is still the most popular feat line in the UC book. I think your balance was pretty much spot on...the whole chain was clearly superior to any other one in the book. They are not complaining because it's been brought down below other feats...they are complaining because it's been brought down from its lofty height, period.
==Aelryinth
Not cool.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mikaze, yet again I'm reminded why you are one of my favorite posters :)
Can you explain, then, in what universe the errata'd Crane Wing is "as attractive" as its alternatives?We were shooting to make it on par with some of the other style feats in Ultimate Combat. Whether or not we were successful I think is the point of this thread. Its pretty clear most folks here feel we fell short of the mark.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead DesignerDo you think people think it fell short of other style feats, like janni style, or fell short compared to the old crane wing?
Nobody dips into a Master of Many Styles monk just for janni style, but lots of people did just for Crane Wing.
Because Janni style doesn't have Prereqs needed to skip.
Crane Style is still the most popular feat line in the UC book. I think your balance was pretty much spot on...the whole chain was clearly superior to any other one in the book. They are not complaining because it's been brought down below other feats...they are complaining because it's been brought down from its lofty height, period.
==Aelryinth
We are complaining because other kind of powerful options available to otger classes don't get nerfed, but when monks get something useful, they get shafted. Signature deed + close and deadly, non-save spells, dazing spell feat, etc, are all ok. Shiny monk thibgs are a no-no.
The problem was not tge CW. It was the MOMS dip. Becauase frontloaded classes are wrong. They know that, because they have said so in orher classes.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Lofty height" is one perspective. I'd say it looks more like a combat feat dared to stick its head above the parapet, and got squashed by the nerfhammer as a consequence.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Crane Style is still the most popular feat line in the UC book. I think your balance was pretty much spot on...the whole chain was clearly superior to any other one in the book. They are not complaining because it's been brought down below other feats...they are complaining because it's been brought down from its lofty height, period.
==Aelryinth
This is clearly meant as an insult. Please do not label other people beliefs or actions. Doing so derails the discussion and shows a lack of respect for your fellow posters.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
4 feats and a bab requirement means it should equal a second level spell to me.
It's too bad that Crane Wing's not as good as mirror image, even before the nerf.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's too bad that Crane Wing's not as good as mirror image, even before the nerf.4 feats and a bab requirement means it should equal a second level spell to me.
The incredible array of monsters with alternate senses and true sight gives you a thumbs-up and says around a mouthful of spellcaster, "Keep believing that, please!"
Crane Wing keeps its value at all levels.
Mirror Image shines up until about 10th level, then rapidly starts tapering off into uselessness against all but the most simple opponents.
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's too bad that Crane Wing's not as good as mirror image, even before the nerf.4 feats and a bab requirement means it should equal a second level spell to me.
The incredible array of monsters with alternate senses and true sight gives you a thumbs-up and says around a mouthful of spellcaster, "Keep believing that, please!"
Crane Wing keeps its value at all levels.
Mirror Image shines up until about 10th level, then rapidly starts tapering off into uselessness against all but the most simple opponents.
==Aelryinth
And then you get Mind Blank to neutralize their True Seeing.
The football fans of the winning side generally enjoy games they win 45-14 over those they win 20-0 as much as the losing fans prefer the 45-14.
Since this popped back up (and apologies is credited wrong), I want to say, as a football fan, I much prefer the shut out.
Do you think people think it fell short of other style feats, like janni style, or fell short compared to the old crane wing?Nobody dips into a Master of Many Styles monk just for janni style, but lots of people did just for Crane Wing.
Lots of people also dipped MoMS for Dragon and Snake Styles too. Because those are the GOOD Styles. Unlike Janni which is, at best, kinda okay for some builds.
It's too bad that Crane Wing's not as good as mirror image, even before the nerf.4 feats and a bab requirement means it should equal a second level spell to me.
The incredible array of monsters with alternate senses and true sight gives you a thumbs-up and says around a mouthful of spellcaster, "Keep believing that, please!"
Yeah but then you have to change every encounter so that every monster has true seeing and that punishes all the characters, not just the guy with mirror image.
And then you get Mind Blank to neutralize their True Seeing.It's too bad that Crane Wing's not as good as mirror image, even before the nerf.4 feats and a bab requirement means it should equal a second level spell to me.
The incredible array of monsters with alternate senses and true sight gives you a thumbs-up and says around a mouthful of spellcaster, "Keep believing that, please!"
Crane Wing keeps its value at all levels.
Mirror Image shines up until about 10th level, then rapidly starts tapering off into uselessness against all but the most simple opponents.
==Aelryinth
Except they even had it featured in an AP that Mind Blank doesn't stop True Seeing, so that doesn't work, either.
And it still doesn't work against a high enough Perception (spellcasting tends to be easy to fixate on), tremorsense, blindsense, blindsight, etc etc etc.
It'll stop Detect Invisible, maybe. But True Seeing isn't targeting a Mind Blank user, it's target is the caster. Not sure how they justified it, but there it was. I've never believed it would cancel out, anyways.
That said, Mind Blank isn't going to help your false images not be illusions, either. We can start warring about invisibility, but Mirror Images are definitely useless against True Seeing.
==Aelryinth
Yeah but then you have to change every encounter so that every monster has true seeing and that punishes all the characters, not just the guy with mirror image.It's too bad that Crane Wing's not as good as mirror image, even before the nerf.4 feats and a bab requirement means it should equal a second level spell to me.
The incredible array of monsters with alternate senses and true sight gives you a thumbs-up and says around a mouthful of spellcaster, "Keep believing that, please!"
There are other alternative senses, and plenty of them.
Magical means of concealment should have neutralizers. True Seeing doesn't hurt ranks in Stealth in the slightest.
==Aelryinth
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah but then you have to change every encounter so that every monster has true seeing and that punishes all the characters, not just the guy with mirror image.It's too bad that Crane Wing's not as good as mirror image, even before the nerf.4 feats and a bab requirement means it should equal a second level spell to me.
The incredible array of monsters with alternate senses and true sight gives you a thumbs-up and says around a mouthful of spellcaster, "Keep believing that, please!"
In the same way Crane Wing had to change every encounter so the enemies weren't all just One Big Hit T-Rexes which... actually makes them all better encounters.
Shame on Crane Wing for forcing GMs to run more fun, flavorful and dynamic encounters. How dare you make the game better for everyone!
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah but then you have to change every encounter so that every monster has true seeing and that punishes all the characters, not just the guy with mirror image.It's too bad that Crane Wing's not as good as mirror image, even before the nerf.4 feats and a bab requirement means it should equal a second level spell to me.
The incredible array of monsters with alternate senses and true sight gives you a thumbs-up and says around a mouthful of spellcaster, "Keep believing that, please!"
There are other alternative senses, and plenty of them.
Magical means of concealment should have neutralizers. True Seeing doesn't hurt ranks in Stealth in the slightest.
==Aelryinth
And nothign beats CW, right? It's not like GMs can use multiple enemies, multiple attacks, spells, ranged attacks, maneuvers or simply attack the more squishy friends... Nope. Not at all.
Monsters with super senses? We see that all the time! Even at low levels, apparently. Characters being attacked more than once or with ranged attacks? Ah, that's a corner case...
Yeah but then you have to change every encounter so that every monster has true seeing and that punishes all the characters, not just the guy with mirror image.It's too bad that Crane Wing's not as good as mirror image, even before the nerf.4 feats and a bab requirement means it should equal a second level spell to me.
The incredible array of monsters with alternate senses and true sight gives you a thumbs-up and says around a mouthful of spellcaster, "Keep believing that, please!"
In the same way Crane Wing had to change every encounter so the enemies weren't all just One Big Hit T-Rexes which... actually makes them all better encounters.
Shame on Crane Wing for forcing GMs to run more fun, flavorful and dynamic encounters. How dare you make the game better for everyone!
Now, now, that's not a good comparison.
Crane Wing's real power comes from the power it puts in a player's hands. Melee has this incredibly lousy circumstance that if you move and attack you only get a single strike. Likewise, if you're limited to a standard action, you only get one swing.
There's very few monsters that get around that restriction. Hydras and pouncers, basically.
Thus, if the player can manage things to minimize the number of attacks directed at him, either by tactical movement, party cooperation, or condition infliction (dazed, etc), it doesn't matter how many attacks the monster NORMALLY gets, it only gets the one, and it's useless. These options actually expand with levels.
It's pretty hard for a mage to remove scent, blindsight, tremorsense, lifesense, mindsight, blindsense, true seeing, see in darkness and what have you from monsters.
And yes, monsters with Scent start the process at very low levels, indeed.
==Aelryinth
Except they even had it featured in an AP that Mind Blank doesn't stop True Seeing, so that doesn't work, either.APs have gotten things wrong before. Mind blank stops true seeing:
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible).
School: divination
Mind blank blocks true seeing. It's not even remotely ambiguous.
But True Seeing isn't targeting a Mind Blank user, it's target is the caster.
See invisibility also targets the caster and it is explicitly mentioned as blocked by mind blank.
Except they even had it featured in an AP that Mind Blank doesn't stop True Seeing, so that doesn't work, either.APs have gotten things wrong before. Mind blank stops true seeing:The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible).School: divinationMind blank blocks true seeing. It's not even remotely ambiguous.
But True Seeing isn't targeting a Mind Blank user, it's target is the caster.See invisibility also targets the caster and it is explicitly mentioned as blocked by mind blank.
Like I said, you can argue with invisibility.
But your mirror Images? They aren't shielded, and are useless.
==Aelryinth
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's one attack. If the player moves away, he provokes an AoO and is limited to 1 attack himself. He's not invulnerable or even particularly resilient.
He ignores ONE attack.
He invested 2~4 feats and/or delayed his caster level, BAB and class features by 2 levels just so he could have a good defense. What is the problem with a character having good defenses instead of putting all his resources in DPR for a change?
Except they even had it featured in an AP that Mind Blank doesn't stop True Seeing, so that doesn't work, either.
"The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible). This spell also grants a +8 resistance bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting spells and effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to gain information about the target. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn't detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all."
"TRUE SEEING
School divination; Level cleric 5, druid 7, sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (an eye ointment that costs 250 gp)
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.
True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance."
Looks like you are wrong. At least outside of mcguffin AP specific scenarios.
Like I said, you can argue with invisibility.
But your mirror Images? They aren't shielded, and are useless.
==Aelryinth
The images from mirror image aren't separate creatures in Pathfinder. That's why you can't use magic missile or Cleave to target the images. If you think true seeing overcame mirror image, you'd have to also think true seeing overcomes other personal figments such as disguise self. That's dumb.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
.
.
.
.
´´´´´´¶¶¶¶
´´´´´¶´´´´¶¶
´´´´´¶´´´´´¶
´´´´´´¶´´´´¶
´´´´´´¶´´´¶
´´´´¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶
´´´¶´´´´´´´´´´´´¶
´´¶´´´´´´´´´´´´¶
´¶¶´´´¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶
´¶´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´¶
´¶´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´¶
´´¶´´´¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶
´´´¶´´´´´´´´´´´¶
´´´´¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶
Mirror Images are protected by the same spells the caster is, hence why you can have invisible mirror images.
[Edit] Ninja'd while I was editing.
It's one attack, and he's limiting the enemy to one attack is the problem, Lemmy.
What if you could ignore the first spell thrown your way every round? It's just one spell! You can just have multiple casters, use non-spell attacks, there's plenty of ways around it. You're only invulnerable to one spell per round!
A good CW player tries to limit his foe's attacks, and if his party is along for the ride, it's not all that hard. Functional invulnerability follows.
And both Spring Attack and a high Tumble modifier can get him out of that range without an AoO. I believe there's a feat which lets you withdraw without provoking, and Low Templars have it as a class ability, I believe. (shrugs)
What you're trying to do is specifically try and get multiple attacks off against someone who is trying to limit the number of attacks the monster can get (wisely).
It's still a good feat. It's just no longer an auto-win feat. It should have had qualifiers like Arrow Deflect did, and now you have to pick the attack instead of it automatically working. An extra +4 Dodge bonus is a good thing, and it synergizes tactically with Riposte much better...you can either try to avoid the best attack and maybe get the Riposte to work, or you can avoid a lesser attack and always get the Riposte to work.
I realize you like the old feat, and I can totally understand why. I just see it as extremely powerful, and your argument seems to be "If I change the whole game to compensate for it, it's not that bad," which isn't very convincing to me.
==Aelryinth
^^^ Failed lol
EDIT: Damn you for editting lol
I realize you like the old feat, and I can totally understand why. I just see it as extremely powerful, and your argument seems to be "If I change the whole game to compensate for it, it's not that bad," which isn't very convincing to me.
==Aelryinth
If you think the old Crane Wing is extremely powerful, I can't imagine what you think of some other things that exist in this game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's one attack. If the player moves away, he provokes an AoO and is limited to 1 attack himself. He's not invulnerable or even particularly resilient.
He ignores ONE attack.
He invested 2~4 feats and/or delayed his caster level, BAB and class features by 2 levels just so he could have a good defense. What is the problem with a character having good defenses instead of putting all his resources in DPR for a change?
Because they are suppose to do DPR and only DPR. Anything else is bad.
Also some GM's really like throwing fighters who only use vital strike at the party and only attack the player with crane wing. HOW IS THE GM SUPPOSE TO WIN!?!?!?!?!?
The images from mirror image aren't separate creatures in Pathfinder. That's why you can't use magic missile or Cleave to target the images. If you think true seeing overcame mirror image, you'd have to also think true seeing overcomes other personal figments such as disguise self. That's dumb.Like I said, you can argue with invisibility.
But your mirror Images? They aren't shielded, and are useless.
==Aelryinth
Mirror Images are not part of the caster...they are 'around' the caster.
Saying Mind Blank wards them is akin to saying Mind Blank wards the Permanent Illusion of a fire you're standing in the middle of. They may well be centered on you, but they aren't ON you.
And yes, they'd go invisible if you did, since they reflect the reality of the caster.
So, Tels, the images get the benefit of a Barkskin? :) Just wondering...
==Aelryinth
^^^ Failed lol
EDIT: Damn you for editting lol
I always forget about the Avatar taking up space in the post.
Mirror Images are not part of the caster...they are 'around' the caster.
Sure, and the figment from disguise self isn't part of the caster, it's "around" the caster. But both are personal range figments. If true seeing overcomes one, it must also overcome the other.
This is not the same situation as standing in the middle of a figment of a fire.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The images from mirror image aren't separate creatures in Pathfinder. That's why you can't use magic missile or Cleave to target the images. If you think true seeing overcame mirror image, you'd have to also think true seeing overcomes other personal figments such as disguise self. That's dumb.Like I said, you can argue with invisibility.
But your mirror Images? They aren't shielded, and are useless.
==Aelryinth
Mirror Images are not part of the caster...they are 'around' the caster.
Saying Mind Blank wards them is akin to saying Mind Blank wards the Permanent Illusion of a fire you're standing in the middle of. They may well be centered on you, but they aren't ON you.
And yes, they'd go invisible if you did, since they reflect the reality of the caster.
==Aelryinth
So when a character gets hit by a Fireball, you deal fireball damage to all the items he's carrying right? Because they aren't part of the character, they are simply around him.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you think the old Crane Wing is extremely powerful, I can't imagine what you think of some other things that exist in this game.I realize you like the old feat, and I can totally understand why. I just see it as extremely powerful, and your argument seems to be "If I change the whole game to compensate for it, it's not that bad," which isn't very convincing to me.
==Aelryinth
I wonder if there was an amulet of anti martial field*, that people wouldn't think feats were so OP.
*Inside an anti martial field, feats do not work and all BAB and CMBs are reduced to 0.
So when a character gets hit by a Fireball, you deal fireball damage to all the items he's carrying right? Because they aren't part of the character, they are simply around him.The images from mirror image aren't separate creatures in Pathfinder. That's why you can't use magic missile or Cleave to target the images. If you think true seeing overcame mirror image, you'd have to also think true seeing overcomes other personal figments such as disguise self. That's dumb.Like I said, you can argue with invisibility.
But your mirror Images? They aren't shielded, and are useless.
==Aelryinth
Mirror Images are not part of the caster...they are 'around' the caster.
Saying Mind Blank wards them is akin to saying Mind Blank wards the Permanent Illusion of a fire you're standing in the middle of. They may well be centered on you, but they aren't ON you.
And yes, they'd go invisible if you did, since they reflect the reality of the caster.
==Aelryinth
Now, now, around him and on his person are two very different things. That's just really bad hyperbole, Tels.
==Aelryinth