.... I really wish your sarcasm wasn't actually accurate. I really do. Unfortunately I'd be lying if I tried to dispute the validity.All the time. Martial classes are not allowed to do anything else. In fact, if the martial character you're playing is not a DPR-focused 2-handed/archery character, you're not allowed to be effective.Haha! I beat you to it!
Always makes me sad, how much I'm supposed to full attack.
You and me both, brother... You and me both.
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Some things are just meant to be worse like compare crossbows and bows or fighters and paladins or rogues and most other classes in the game or monks and druid animal companions.
You take that back. My druid's animal companion is way better than the party monk.
I've always argued that the whole chain is super-synergistic and too strong. In fact, most of these threads talk about "Crane Style" being OP and are really talking about all three with an emphasis on Wing. The thing is, you can't use Crane Wing without getting that AC bonus as well, and it's a pre-req in Wing's chain so it's an important factor in all Crane Style-based discussions.That's Crane Style giving the benefit, though, not Crane Wing.Let's not be pedantic please. You automatically get +4 AC while using the style of fighting necessary to activate Crane Wing.So no, Crane Wing is completely to blame.So because crane wing gives you a +4 to AC... oh wait, it doesn't! Worse, you were fighting in one of the most boring moments in gaming history. A bunch of mooks who hit you on a 20.
Which, I suppose is fair if things want to get lumped together... but then the cost of spending 2-3 feats on it should be mentioned too.
There really isn't much that WOULD be OP for the price of 3 feats... Feats are worth their weight in goal.
If the problem with it is the fighters abusing it.. then throw in a line about needing monk levels to use it, but I hate seeing monks get nerfed JUST when they are starting to look usable :P
In which case, we're to a Tower Shield and Crane Wing functioning pretty much the same way most of the time. And if a character fights defensively with a Tower Shield, it's going to end up with an AC of +7 pretty easily. My point is simply that saying Crane Wing gives a +4, something easily replicable with armor or shields, makes it too powerful is rather silly. Armor and shielding doesn't cost a feat. Deflection is nice, but not a game changer.You can always attack a square. If there was an invisible creature following you (which can happen surprisingly a lot), and it was in that square (unlikely), you even have a 50% chance to hit it!Is that a thing? If so, then my DM has been screwing me over pretty hard. I was unaware that I could defensively fight nothing to get bonuses. Seemed pretty silly to me.you can always total defense or attack defensively against an empty square and then advance.Claiming that Crane Wing was broken is akin to claiming using a Tower Shield is broken. Both give you (Essentially) +4 to AC, and until the third feat in the Crane Wing line, they give you identically the same penalty to attack rolls. Of course, you actually have to be in melee combat to use Crane Wing, whereas with that shield, you can use it all the time. I can tell you from experience I've been nailed pretty hard by things just out of my reach, or when I have to eat AoO to get to something with reach.
Also, while a Tower Shield may not deflect attacks, it could give you total cover.
Aha, gotcha. But it's actually the combination of the two that does it. The AC plus the deflection. The strongest build to take advantage of the deflection is one that can hold its ground at a chokepoint and be hit very rarely (deflecting the hit), letting allies attack from behind. Since +4 AC helps with the hit very rarely thing a lot, it's a big boost for the deflection. I would have had to sacrifice significant offense to get that much AC if, say, Crane Style did nothing and Crane Wing worked without fighting defensively, as an example of another way it could have been without the +3 AC, and I completely needed to have both high AC and deflections to be unstoppable against hordes of enemies with many attacks per round each. As someone mentioned in one of these two threads, mirror image, from yourself or from a wand is also a devilishly good combination with old-school Crane Wing. Anything that makes it so that the enemies' hits are not likely to cluster together more than one in the same round.
Some things are just meant to be worse like compare crossbows and bows or fighters and paladins or rogues and most other classes in the game or monks and druid animal companions.You take that back. My druid's animal companion is way better than the party monk.
That's what I meant. Monks can't have a druid cast shapechange on them turn into a huge dragon with 44 strength (bear animal companions). Monks also have worse AC by then. Much worse if the druid AC is fully geared.
Here is a possible alternative to this awful, awful errata:
Crane Wing: When fighting defensively, you can sacrifice your first attack to be get the ability to deflect one melee weapon attack used against you before the start of your next turn.
There! Now if you have 1 attack and the enemy has 1 attack, you can both not hit each other for hours. Both of you lose 1 attack.
It's still a extremely unnecessarily nerf, but at least it doesn't makes the feat complete garbage!
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I have a better alternative
Crane Wing: When you pick this feat, you may respect your character as something with spells or alchemy.
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I have a better alternative
Crane Wing: When you pick this feat, you may respect your character as something with spells or alchemy.
You deflect your character sheet for something better? Works for me! Can I flip the table too?
Might as well nerf deflect arrows too. No rolled required there either.
Some us like the idea that the d20 doesn't have to be our Lord and Master for all actions. You know like spell casters...
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The thing I dislike about the old crane wing is that it where no roll involved.
Quick fix to the new crane wing.
- Increase de dodge bonus to +10
That way opponets will have a hard time hitting you but you are not totally inmune to that first attack- You can decide to use the feat after the attack roll is revealed.
- it have to toally works with crane riposte.
Quick fix to make it work with riposte and buff it a little (since much as the old one was hugely problematic, I agree this new one is pretty weak):
After an announced attack roll beats your AC but before damage is rolled (or if you roll damage at the same time, just don't announce it yet), you can choose to gain +4 AC. If this makes the attack miss, you can riposte.
Might as well nerf deflect arrows too. No rolled required there either.
Some us like the idea that the d20 doesn't have to be our Lord and Master for all actions. You know like spell casters...
Hey, now! The d20 also is our Lord and Master! Sometimes it allows an enemy to take only half of the infinity+3 damage we rolled!
The thing I dislike about the old crane wing is that it where no roll involved.
Quick fix to the new crane wing.
- Increase de dodge bonus to +10
That way opponets will have a hard time hitting you but you are not totally inmune to that first attack- You can decide to use the feat after the attack roll is revealed.
- it have to toally works with crane riposte.
Quick fix to make it work with riposte and buff it a little (since much as the old one was hugely problematic, I agree this new one is pretty weak):
After an announced attack roll beats your AC but before damage is rolled (or if you roll damage at the same time, just don't announce it yet), you can choose to gain +4 AC. If this makes the attack miss, you can riposte.
Yes I think this would be a good way to fix the Crane feats really quickly.
Perhaps also increase the AC bonus to 5 or 6.
What if we rolled something like a d8 or a d10 to see what the AC bonus was instead of a flat number?
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This errata is being thrown in the trash. Where it belongs.
I still wonder why Paizo won't just come out and say they hate Monks? It should be right there in the Core Rulebook.
Would make things a lot easier for players.
Too bad it actually raises some more questions than it could have possibly answered for.
For example, does that +4 Dodge AC from Fighting Defensively stack with subjects that are dependant upon AC received from Fighting Defensively? The (Improved) Stalwart feat(s) would like to know so I can turn it into a total extra of 5 (or 10) DR instead of being left at 4 (or 8) DR; saving every hit point counts.
There are no questions; dodge bonuses always stack with each other.
Might as well nerf deflect arrows too. No rolled required there either.
Some us like the idea that the d20 doesn't have to be our Lord and Master for all actions. You know like spell casters...
COnsidering that archers tend to have just more attacks than melee combatant I disagree.
So?
This errata is being thrown in the trash. Where it belongs.
I still wonder why Paizo won't just come out and say they hate Monks? It should be right there in the Core Rulebook.
Would make things a lot easier for players.
Monks actually get some love. It's them dex/wis monks that are a problem. Either grab dragon style or GTFO!
Aha, gotcha. But it's actually the combination of the two that does it. The AC plus the deflection. The strongest build to take advantage of the deflection is one that can hold its ground at a chokepoint and be hit very rarely (deflecting the hit), letting allies attack from behind. Since +4 AC helps with the hit very rarely thing a lot, it's a big boost for the deflection. I would have had to sacrifice significant offense to get that much AC if, say, Crane Style did nothing and Crane Wing worked without fighting defensively, as an example of another way it could have been without the +3 AC, and I completely needed to have both high AC and deflections to be unstoppable against hordes of enemies with many attacks per round each. As someone mentioned in one of these two threads, mirror image, from yourself or from a wand is also a devilishly good combination with old-school Crane Wing. Anything that makes it so that the enemies' hits are not likely to cluster together more than one in the same round.
Hm, true. I see the point there, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. Just because a handful of abilities work well together does not mean that one of the abilities is too powerful, at least in my opinion. Let's take that chokehold situation you just mentioned. If we're working with a doorway (which would be fantastic), and I plant that Tower Shield, I have total cover. Meaning, 'You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover.' I am now a wonderful wall, and my buddies can attack past me. I can't attack, which is definately a point in Crane Wing's favor, but they can't hit me. A few abilities still can, sure, but it's about as limited as the list as what can ignore Crane Wing.
You know, I've never actually thought about using a Tower Shield before. They always seemed too cumbersome to me. But now, I may have to look at it. Admittedly, it's only the Tower Shield that can do these things, most other equipment won't be up to it. But, regardless, I feel like Crane Wing wasn't as awful as people made it seem to be. It's definately a matter of opinion.
Aha, gotcha. But it's actually the combination of the two that does it. The AC plus the deflection. The strongest build to take advantage of the deflection is one that can hold its ground at a chokepoint and be hit very rarely (deflecting the hit), letting allies attack from behind. Since +4 AC helps with the hit very rarely thing a lot, it's a big boost for the deflection. I would have had to sacrifice significant offense to get that much AC if, say, Crane Style did nothing and Crane Wing worked without fighting defensively, as an example of another way it could have been without the +3 AC, and I completely needed to have both high AC and deflections to be unstoppable against hordes of enemies with many attacks per round each. As someone mentioned in one of these two threads, mirror image, from yourself or from a wand is also a devilishly good combination with old-school Crane Wing. Anything that makes it so that the enemies' hits are not likely to cluster together more than one in the same round.Hm, true. I see the point there, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. Just because a handful of abilities work well together does not mean that one of the abilities is too powerful, at least in my opinion. Let's take that chokehold situation you just mentioned. If we're working with a doorway (which would be fantastic), and I plant that Tower Shield, I have total cover. Meaning, 'You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover.' I am now a wonderful wall, and my buddies can attack past me. I can't attack, which is definately a point in Crane Wing's favor, but they can't hit me. A few abilities still can, sure, but it's about as limited as the list as what can ignore Crane Wing.
You know, I've never actually thought about using a Tower Shield before. They always seemed too cumbersome to me. But now, I may have to look at it. Admittedly, it's only the Tower Shield that can do these things, most other equipment won't be up to it. But, regardless, I feel like...
Tower shields are actually pretty neat! We had a player who kept taking them on casters who didn't have a better move action and switching them around. Other than the no attacking (which can be a significant loss if you hit hard, as my Crane guy does), the biggest weakness of the tower shield in front of you is that the enemy can sunder the shield itself eventually.
Chengar's claim was that there were people on this thread who supported whatever Paizo decides, which would mean they would have had to be happy with Crane before and now happy with the errata as well.
Actually if I read it right, Chengar wasn't talking about the posters...