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I'm building a Halfling Swashbuckler (potentially multiclassing with paladin or other classes), and I am having trouble finding ways to make him able to put the hurt on his opponents. Defensively, he's amazing - I have an AC of 20 at first level with a pile of other abilities to help him avoid getting hurt. But with a 10 strength and no access to sneak attack, I'm feeling he's going to lag behind his allies for damage.
I'm not going Dervish Dance either, even though I know how utterly amazing it is from my Magus. I need at least one character who doesn't use a scimitar.
What can I do to improve his offensive capabilities? I'm more experienced with sneak-attack optimization and spellcasters than straight up fighter types.
Piranha Strike, which requires light weapon. Power Attack is a great option if you can invest that much into Strength. Risky Striker is another great option, though you have to be two sizes smaller than your targets (though as a halfling, this is highly adventure-dependant but also fairly common). If you’re going for a dex-build, the Agile weapon property is a great idea, but obviously you can’t depend on it until you can pay to put it on your weapon.
Why did you make your str so low? As my own personal rule thumb, i go with 14 minimum for that +2, it adds up. With no strength modifier though, you are not going to deal much damage until you get to add your intelligence, and even then, thats not a lot better then just having the str.
Why did you make your str so low? As my own personal rule thumb, i go with 14 minimum for that +2, it adds up. With no strength modifier though, you are not going to deal much damage until you get to add your intelligence, and even then, thats not a lot better then just having the str.
Halflings start at a -2 to STR, so getting STR to 10 is expensive as it is, 12 even more so. Without sacrificing other stats, a 14 to start in STR with halfling racial traits might not even possible. Of course, this all depends -- are you rolling stats? Point buy? How many points?
Right, with a 20 point buy system, you should easily be able to pull off a 16/14/14/10/10/10 and go from there, giving you a minimum of 14 Str.
However, that's not really the point, the OP has a STR of 10, so how to boost the damage?
I'd work toward Duelist, but at low levels you're kind of stuck relying on weapon damage, with a low str you're going to have a hard time. Maybe pick up the team work feat that gives you the 1d6 extra damage? Or focus instead on combat maneuvers like trip and disarm? You won't top DPR, but you'll still be useful.
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I'm building a Halfling Swashbuckler (potentially multiclassing with paladin or other classes), and I am having trouble finding ways to make him able to put the hurt on his opponents. Defensively, he's amazing - I have an AC of 20 at first level with a pile of other abilities to help him avoid getting hurt. But with a 10 strength and no access to sneak attack, I'm feeling he's going to lag behind his allies for damage.
I'm not going Dervish Dance either, even though I know how utterly amazing it is from my Magus. I need at least one character who doesn't use a scimitar.
What can I do to improve his offensive capabilities? I'm more experienced with sneak-attack optimization and spellcasters than straight up fighter types.
Short answer is that you wait until level 3 like all swashbucklers. After level 3 you use Precise Strike all the time and you will be fine. But until level 3 you will be doing 1d4.
Well the Swashbuckler does have a static damage mechanic, so you've got that.
Risky Striker as mentioned is great, the AC penalty doesn't scale while the damage does. You might not see many large opponents early on though, barring ogres.
Is this for Society play? Or for a home-group?
if it's for a home group, then you may look at seeing if you can talk your GM into allowing Piranha Strike with whatever weapon your using (assuming it doesn't already qualify). If you can get that going from level 1, your Strength of 10 is fine. You won't be topping DPR, but you'll be contributing fine.
And is that Strength of 10 set in stone? upping it to 13 or 14 may make a big difference, even if it really is painful to accomplish.
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It's PFS, 20 point buy.
Right, with a 20 point buy system, you should easily be able to pull off a 16/14/14/10/10/10 and go from there, giving you a minimum of 14 Str.
Right, because Swashbucklers are awesome without class features - which rely entirely on Charisma.
So, unfortunately, a high Cha is also required. Meaning Str is gonna have to stay lowwwww.
Is this for Society play? Or for a home-group?
if it's for a home group, then you may look at seeing if you can talk your GM into allowing Piranha Strike with whatever weapon your using (assuming it doesn't already qualify). If you can get that going from level 1, your Strength of 10 is fine. You won't be topping DPR, but you'll be contributing fine.
Why can't I use Piranha Strike in Society?
oh, i think you can. But if you're using a rapier, it doesn't qualify (being a medium weapon). If you're using a dagger or shortsword, you're fine.
This is a very minor fix, but it is very very doable. first buy a whetstone. Second buy as many rapiers/daggers as you can carry/afford (preferably rapiers obviously, but you may not be able to afford 10 rapiers at lvl 1, if you can, even if you are broke after do it.) Next spend time every day during the 8 hours you are neither sleeping nor adventuring to use your whetstone on every weapon you posses. Remember it takes 15 minutes per item, so if you have 20 rapiers (if you can afford/carry that many do it) it will take you 5 hours to sharpen them all.
During combat when you are beside an enemy and have struck him last turn with your current weapon do the following:
1 free action drop weapon
2 move action draw sharp weapon
3 standard attack
If you have quick draw this is even more effective, as you can pursue moving targets/ move onto new targets and still do full damage, however this strategy is not worth investing a feat into. This strategy is just a stopgap until you get a +1 weapon, at which point this strategy becomes moot.
+1 damage is not a lot, but it all you are likely to get at lvl 1-2 without altering your character's stats etc.
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I'm not going Dervish Dance either,
Be the millionth character to go dervish dance.....
And a natural 1 on the Reading skill check.
oh, i think you can. But if you're using a rapier, it doesn't qualify (being a medium weapon). If you're using a dagger or shortsword, you're fine.
Aw, damn it. I keep forgetting the rapier isn't light, since it's treated as light for Weapon Finesse. Damn, damn, damn!
Whee, here I go being a freaking FENCER wielding a bloody KUKRI. (Oh, wait, even that is impossible, because I require piercing. The devs just hate the idea of a Small Swashbuckler, don't they?)
Not happy right now.
What're the rules for wielding undersized weapons? Could I wield a Tiny Rapier as a light weapon?
Of course by becoming Tiny, you would give up your natural reach and have to enter the enemy square.
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I'm not going Dervish Dance either,Be the millionth character to go dervish dance.....And a natural 1 on the Reading skill check.
oh, i think you can. But if you're using a rapier, it doesn't qualify (being a medium weapon). If you're using a dagger or shortsword, you're fine.Aw, damn it. I keep forgetting the rapier isn't light, since it's treated as light for Weapon Finesse. Damn, damn, damn!
Whee, here I go being a freaking FENCER wielding a bloody KUKRI.
Not happy right now.
What're the rules for wielding undersized weapons? Could I wield a Tiny Rapier as a light weapon?
Mostly just mocking those that think every dex character MUST use it
oh, i think you can. But if you're using a rapier, it doesn't qualify (being a medium weapon). If you're using a dagger or shortsword, you're fine.
You're correct. Piranha Strike is legal in PFS (it's from Pathfinder Companion: Sargava, the Lost Colony), but it only works on light weapons. (This means it can't be combined with Dervish Dance, also.)
Piranha Strike is also a good trade off: dropping your weapon die from 1d4 (rapier) to 1d3 (short sword) will only drop your average damage from the weapon from 2.5 to 2, in exchange for +2 damage on every hit.
Also, don't forget that you can do a complete rebuild after level 1. It's cheesy, but you can do your first level as a knife master rogue (for 1d8 sneak attacks), rebuild into a swashbuckler when you level, and then only kinda suck for 3 scenarios before the swashbuckler damage kicks in at level 3. (Or use GM credits to get you through those awkward early levels.)
You can also look at other ways to contribute:
[list]
You could take a dip into Ranger for 2 levels, to pick up Power Attack without meeting the Str requirement.
Go crane style. 5 feats that make you nearly invincible in melee.
Then fight defensively, take risky striker and cautious fighter.
You AC is now 29 or 30 with a light armor and you still hit pretty good.
You can also take weapon focus, greater weapon focus and weapon specialization as a swashbuckler.
So, all together, as a swashbuckler halflings can do a lot of damage.
Combine that with antagonize!
Footslasher sure sounds like a fun thing to do too.
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You could burn a feat and get Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Wakizashi. It has the same stats as a rapier, but it can do slashing as well as piercing, and it is a light weapon that can be used with Piranha Strike. You can get free proficiency if you dip a level of Samurai or Ninja.
Alternatively, you could dip two levels of Ranger and pick up Power Attack as a bonus feat.
Consider using DM credit to get to level 3!
Edit: Ninja'd
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Mostly just mocking those that think every dex character MUST use it
Well, I've just confirmed there's no other way to be even remotely effective. The game says "If you're a low-Str character in Melee, you either take Dervish Dance or you suffer a massive power loss." One feat for +4/+5 to damage, eh? And I never need Str again? Hard to justify NOT taking it. I was hoping there'd be options for other builds, but looks like I'm going to be disappointed.
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You could burn a feat and get Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Wakizashi. It has the same stats as a rapier, but it can do slashing as well as piercing, and it is a light weapon that can be used with Piranha Strike. You can get free proficiency if you dip a level of Samurai or Ninja.
Ooh, it does? I thought it had the 19-20 crit range. That's perfect...
How about a potion of enlarge person, or have a party member cast it on you 1st round of combat. Your AC is already high enough so it won't matter too much, and your weapon die will go up as well as having +2 to strength.
The final product is not out yet, so there might be changes or whole new things. No use complaining there.
Agile Maneuvers: Nothing says damage like the whole party whacking the guy you tripped.
Can be done with swashbuckler finesse.
At least trip, disarm and dirty trick.
Brand new class, same issues
Hence the term "playtest."
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Put more points into Strength. As a halfling, you have a net -1 to damage on average (due to the differing damage dies weapons used) over a character built with another race.
-1.
After 2nd level, that's a pittance. Soon after that you'll be getting your level to damage, which will help a lot. Just spending 10 points and you can get an effective 12 Str and 16 Dex, which is absolutely fine.
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Mostly just mocking those that think every dex character MUST use itWell, I've just confirmed there's no other way to be even remotely effective. The game says "If you're a low-Str character in Melee, you either take Dervish Dance or you suffer a massive power loss." One feat for +4/+5 to damage, eh? And I never need Str again? Hard to justify NOT taking it. I was hoping there'd be options for other builds, but looks like I'm going to be disappointed.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland Designer wrote on Dec 11, 2013, 10:04 PM:
"Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into" Source.
Hopefully, there will be a new feat when the Advanced Class Guide is released in August. Until then, Dervish Dance will unfortunately remain easily the best option, and almost only option, for small melee characters.
Another alternative is a level of the Aldori Swordlord prestige class... but the requirements are steep, you can only get there at level 6, and the Aldori Duelling Sword is sub-optimal for a Swashbuckler as it only has a 19-20 crit threat range.
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This is a very minor fix, but it is very very doable. first buy a whetstone. Second buy as many rapiers/daggers as you can carry/afford (preferably rapiers obviously, but you may not be able to afford 10 rapiers at lvl 1, if you can, even if you are broke after do it.) Next spend time every day during the 8 hours you are neither sleeping nor adventuring to use your whetstone on every weapon you posses. Remember it takes 15 minutes per item, so if you have 20 rapiers (if you can afford/carry that many do it) it will take you 5 hours to sharpen them all.
During combat when you are beside an enemy and have struck him last turn with your current weapon do the following:
1 free action drop weapon
2 move action draw sharp weapon
3 standard attackIf you have quick draw this is even more effective, as you can pursue moving targets/ move onto new targets and still do full damage, however this strategy is not worth investing a feat into. This strategy is just a stopgap until you get a +1 weapon, at which point this strategy becomes moot.
+1 damage is not a lot, but it all you are likely to get at lvl 1-2 without altering your character's stats etc.
Ha!
Lovely idea. There's an unfortunate reason it won't work to help the understrength Halfling... Those rapiers weigh 40lb. He will be going nowhere dragging them around.
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Whee, here I go being a freaking FENCER wielding a bloody KUKRI.(Oh, wait, even that is impossible, because I require piercing. The devs just hate the idea of a Small Swashbuckler, don't they?)
There is the Slashing Grace feat in the playtest with the Swashbuckler that will let you use Slashing weapons with your finesse. It's not impossible, but Wakazashis are a better choice.
Personally, when I was playing with a Swashbuckler to try it out, I used a Morningstar for finesse. The crit profile sucks, but I liked that it did bludgeoning as well as piercing, and its really cool to finesse a freaking spiked ball on a stick.
Strength 10 is too low. Should be 12, 13, or 14. 12 is the price of admission, 13 gets you Power Attack, 14 gets you optimal DPS. But taking Strength 10 as a given, here's the skinny.
You're a Small character, which means +1 to hit, which means statistically, you're actually better off than some Medium characters. But the hump you have to climb as a melee character is to become accurate, then leverage that accuracy for damage. Power Attack is classic, for instance. Fighters do Weapon Specialization. Two-weapon fighting is an option, too.
The Swashbuckler playtest has a very narrow range of options. Basically, if you don't boost Strength and won't use a scimitar, you've taken all the real options off the table for serious damage. Your only other option for being able to reliably take opponents down in one round is to fight with rapier and shortsword (or kukri). All of those options require a rebuild. They are all decent options.
The other path is to just accept how things are. Don't focus on damage dealing. Focus on shielding other parties members. Flank and use aid other with your rogue. Ready your crossbow and shoot the spellcaster. In a pinch, fight defensively and whittle your foes down. Beg for magic weapon. Keep at it until you get Precise Strike.
You should be aware that all of this talk here leads to a fairly optimized character. As long as you don´t want to do as much damage as a two-handed wielding barbarian or fighter, you will be fine.
Even with an 8 STR. Sure level 1 will suck then and that is unfortunate, but that´s the cause with some classes.
The final product is not out yet, so there might be changes or whole new things. No use complaining there.
I would think that during the playtest would be the perfect time to bring up issues like that. There's still time to get the problem fixed right now.
How do Halflings deal damage in melee without sneak attack?
Shocking grasp cares not for the size of the caster...
Otherwise...everyone else has already pointed out their Pathfinder-fu is greater than mine, so I bow to their superior knowledge. But, you can flank, aid another, and such helping other warriors deal damage and establish control over the battlefield (being small doesn't stop you from threatening a 15 foot wide block).
Poisons might be an option as well. Nothing says "you shouldn't have ignored me" like drow sleep poison.
With that high dex, BAB, and small size bonus, ranged weapons are an option, to included tanglefoot bags and alchemist fire.
If you get mobility, you can be a great boon by provoking attacks of opportunity, using up the monsters' AoO by moving through threatened squares with yer super high AC (don't tumble). With your fantastic AC, you might be able to get away with that without Mobility.
A whip would work, as well, and can easily fit into a swashbuckling theme. Disarming from 15 feet away prevents most attacks of opportunity, so improved disarm isn't mandatory. Being small with a low strength means it won't work often, but if you target casters and their component bags/holy symbols, your chances of success goes way up.
Small races, with the possible exception of wayang, just suck at anything that isn't magic in Pathfinder. That's life.
I disagree. A halfling rogue is probably the most optimal rogue, and I think the gnome is close behind, but of course it all depends on how you want to play them.
And I'm currently playing a Halfling Barbarian 1 (Urban Barbarian), and having a great time of it. Still very effective in combat even after the rage runs out (I should point out that the GM gave us all Weapon Finesse as a free feat.)
I have run a game for halflings only - started at level three and all players had to have a least one level of rogue (it was a Thieve's Guild kind of game). They were all very effective characters with the monk and the cleric dishing out plenty of damage.
The other path is to just accept how things are. Don't focus on damage dealing. Focus on shielding other parties members. Flank and use aid other with your rogue. Ready your crossbow and shoot the spellcaster. In a pinch, fight defensively and whittle your foes down.
This.
DYK: You can Aid Another whilst Fighting Defensively.I would think that during the playtest would be the perfect time to bring up issues like that. There's still time to get the problem fixed right now.
The final product is not out yet, so there might be changes or whole new things. No use complaining there.
I thought the playtesting was closed...
Look at the feats risky fighter and big game hunter. They both add quite a bit of damage, and don't penalise your to hit roll at all.
cool.
Halflings do it while mounted.
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If I were making a PFS legal halfling swashbuckler, I'd have a statline that looked like this after racial modifiers: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16. Feat would be Power Attack, I'd get the swift-footed racial option, and I'd probably grab Lessons of Chaldira for one of my traits. But that gives you a standard attack of +4 for 1d4+3 (18-20), which is admitted not amazing but is at least going to drop a goblin warrior on an average roll...
Mostly just mocking those that think every dex character MUST use itWell, I've just confirmed there's no other way to be even remotely effective. The game says "If you're a low-Str character in Melee, you either take Dervish Dance or you suffer a massive power loss." One feat for +4/+5 to damage, eh? And I never need Str again? Hard to justify NOT taking it. I was hoping there'd be options for other builds, but looks like I'm going to be disappointed.Stephen Radney-MacFarland Designer wrote on Dec 11, 2013, 10:04 PM:
"Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into" Source.
Hopefully, there will be a new feat when the Advanced Class Guide is released in August. Until then, Dervish Dance will unfortunately remain easily the best option, and almost only option, for small melee characters.
Another alternative is a level of the Aldori Swordlord prestige class... but the requirements are steep, you can only get there at level 6, and the Aldori Duelling Sword is sub-optimal for a Swashbuckler as it only has a 19-20 crit threat range.
I hope they go through with this. It would be great to have it like Dervish Dance -- call it weapon dance, take two ranks in dance and then pick a weapon that you can finesse, and you get dex to damage with that weapon.
I made a halfling brawler (ACG) that I'm pretty happy with. The ability to swap out feats on a whim is very handy. Ranged? Take a couple of halfling sling feats. Melee? Pick up Boar Style and make 'me bleed.
Don't skimp on Strength, though. Brawler unarmed strike damage already takes a hit for being small. A source of alter self or enlarge person would serve you well.
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i recently started playing a halfling barbarian with the titan mauler archetype. i took the underfoot racial trait and made him a lil rage machine that got tons of bonus's to hit and ac. i gave str 16/14 with power attack. while weilding a greataxe at lvl during a rage he can pump out 1d10+8. i built him for fluff and ended up with a beast of a character.