For 1 - 20 play, caster PrCs are almost all crap. You either lose out on spell levels or class features and often both. Dragon Disciple is good because your bloodline abilities keep advancing. Given the sorc archetype that gives you two bloodlines you can really make an amazing blaster that's adaptable and can change energy types.
That said, choose PrCs based on the particular features you want a character to have. If your concept lines up very well with a PrC then by all means take it. However, if it doesn't and you're just shopping for something to multiclass into, don't do it.
Archetypes replace PrCs for stemming concepts from a base class
New base classes are replacing PrCs for multiclass concepts
PrCs are becoming less and less necessary. The only niche they have left is for characters who want to grow into a profession or character concepts that require being very powerful before they even start.
PrCs are becoming less and less necessary.
Necessary or not, its still nice to see good ones now and then.
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Certain PRCs can create monsters with certain specific builds. The "aldori swordlord" can get monstrous AC if you want.
However, there are no "generally good" PrCs. They need fairly specialized builds if you want them to be good.
My own experiences building PrCs shows me most of them (about 2/3) can be well used, with the right build. None of them are better than a straight class normally though.
I had great results taking the Golden Legionnaire PrC for my Cavalier. Gives you some rather solid abilities for the right type of character.
I've had good experiences with the Arcane Archer, Duelist, Arcane Trickster, Aldori Swordlord, Winter Witch, Divine Scion and Magaambyan Arcanist. They're all decent compared to base classes.
Winter witch is powerful? It always looked like a weaker witch to me. Can I ask what makes it nice?
Well, the winter witch still gets all her hexes (once every 2 levels, which people often forget), still gets all patron spells, gets a slightly slowed progression of spells (by one caster level) and a boost to it's ice spells. It's quite interesting.
The problem I find with Winter witch is that it doesn't seem like enough of an increase in power to justify the loss of spell progression and restrictions of patrons and hexes.
Well, while there is a hex restriction, they arent awful hexes, and you're only limited to about a DOZEN different patrons (and not just bad ones).
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Veiled Illusionist is a nice PRC that I found recently, especially because of the human veil. If you're entering from a divine path, you can get some nice arcane spells onto your list.
Perfect for a super versatile heavens oracle (no longer just a color spray oracle!)
Winter witch is powerful? It always looked like a weaker witch to me. Can I ask what makes it nice?
You only lose 1 caster level, and keep your hex/patron progression, plus a bunch of class features. It's not amazing-strong or anything, but I find it about equal to a witch.
When I said relatively powerful, I meant about the same strength as taking core classes... I should have worded that better.
Horizon Walker is solid for high level builds.
The problem I find with Winter witch is that it doesn't seem like enough of an increase in power to justify the loss of spell progression and restrictions of patrons and hexes.
What annoyed me most about the PrC was that it required Ice Magic, which means its a PrC that's for one specific archetype. If I remember correctly anyway.
Well, while there is a hex restriction, they arent awful hexes, and you're only limited to about a DOZEN different patrons (and not just bad ones).
You have to take 3 hexes. 2 of them aren't too bad, one of them being a hex every witch gets and the other being a hex that improves ice spells(which is your theme!), but... The the 3rd one is hoarfrost, which is one of the many NPC hexes. Luckily after you get passed that tax you can take other hexes. Its got a few empty levels and a lot of its abilities feel like NPC abilities.
Loremaster doesn't seem that bad to me. Full progression, Bardic Knowledge(effectively a wizard goes from 2+ skill points per level to 7 skillpoints per level!), and a secrets aren't awful. Not sure if it qualifies as good, but it doesn't go in the bad category imo.
Taking a level of Living Monolith seems like a fun deal, but I dunno if its worth it beyond that. Enlarge yourself for 6 minutes as a swift action, 3/day is pretty sweet for a martial class.
Soul Drinker is a very interesting class, especially if taken by a non-caster with Conductive weapons. A familiar that can turn dead enemy souls into cash (if you're not squeamish and have ways to sell them), negative levels on melee hits, and some cool SLAs if you decide to stay long enough makes it solid.
Living monolith is fun, and makes you a great tank type character with a ton of immunities, some weird spell like abilities, and the enlarge ability (the power of which scales to righteous might with the same duration as enlarge person). Not a bad PrC if you use a low-feat fighter build.
The Battle Herald is the best Aid Another character in the game.
The Golden Legionnarie is basically an Extraordinary bard with some awesome bonus feats.
The Shieldmarshal is stellar if you don't mind using one-handed firearms or specializing in the Dead Shot deed.
In spite of my earlier advice I did find the Holy Vindicator to be impressive for what it does.
HV seems to be a solid choice for a vanilla paladin or battle cleric. Stigmata flows into channel smite and smite evil(massage your BaB/Damage some) Vindicator's Shield gives a nice AC bonus as well.
Living monolith is fun, and makes you a great tank type character with a ton of immunities, some weird spell like abilities, and the enlarge ability (the power of which scales to righteous might with the same duration as enlarge person). Not a bad PrC if you use a low-feat fighter build.
I actually kind of hate how it goes from Enlarge Person to Righteous Might ... regardless of how much better Might is otherwise, I look at going from minutes per day to rounds per day and just don't like it. I'd rather grab 1 level, or maybe 3 levels tops, for the bleed immune and the 2/Ad DR and 20% crit resist while enlarged (already half what you can get in total) and then get back to my regularly-scheduled program. One or three levels on a barbarian is a lot of fun - stack some size strength onto your rage strength and have a BIG rage.
I always liked the new PF Horizon Walker. 3 levels gets you a good gamut of things depending on build and campaign. Excellent for terrain themed campaigns and/or high level games. Also, TONS of fluff for roleplay. Got to love that.
I like Horizon Walker. It's nice for Fighter/Rangers, when I want skill points and nice abilities, but I'm not wanting all the baggage that a Ranger comes with.
Shadowdancer is good, but it's almost never ideal for the exact moment you can first qualify for it. It's very defense heavy, so your shadow is the only thing you've really got for solid offense if you enter the class early.
Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight are just good.
I'm not so fond of the Loremaster. It was a cool class in 3.5, but the requirements now seem clunky. What does metamagic and item creation really have to do with esoteric knowledge? Since the secrets are non-scaling abilities, they usually do not compete well with upper level wizard and sorcerer features. And while I've seen NPC writeups that were bard/loremaster, that always makes me cry. What loremaster is good for is if you want to be a wizard with insane, constantly maxed out Knowledge skills and you prefer spells and metamagics to SLAs. Also works for a more caster-y cleric, and does vastly improve a sorcerer who wants some knowledge abilities. Also good for non-wildshaping druid. Probably not as good as similar class archetypes, in many cases.
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Pathfinder Savant. You get some nice abilities that don't make up for the lost caster level, and then you get Esoteric Magic and plunder the very best from the Bard and Summoner lists and suddenly you're creating Demiplanes at level 10 and casting Dominate Monster at level 12.
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Lantern Bearer is a very nice PrC for good elves and half-elves. Even more so for martial characters, you are literally not losing anything and gaining a bunch of spell like abilities that will come in handy to keep you alive.
But yeah like someone mentioned, the archetypes of Pathfinder are so well done, PrCs are less and less important.
Living monolith is fun, and makes you a great tank type character with a ton of immunities, some weird spell like abilities, and the enlarge ability (the power of which scales to righteous might with the same duration as enlarge person). Not a bad PrC if you use a low-feat fighter build.I actually kind of hate how it goes from Enlarge Person to Righteous Might ... regardless of how much better Might is otherwise, I look at going from minutes per day to rounds per day and just don't like it. I'd rather grab 1 level, or maybe 3 levels tops, for the bleed immune and the 2/Ad DR and 20% crit resist while enlarged (already half what you can get in total) and then get back to my regularly-scheduled program. One or three levels on a barbarian is a lot of fun - stack some size strength onto your rage strength and have a BIG rage.
You know, it doesnt pass from minutes to rounds/level; the greater ka stone states you gain the benefit of righteous might, which I interpret as righeous might for mintes/level, since it's modyfying the original power. But I could be wrong.
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PrCs are becoming less and less necessary.Necessary or not, it's still nice to see good ones now and then.
As long as there are people who actually want them, they ARE necessary.
But yeah like someone mentioned, the archetypes of Pathfinder are so well done, PrCs are less and less important.
Other way around really. There are lots of bad archetypes just like there were lots of bad PrCs in 3.5. We just tend to nab the good ones(or at least the ones that look good). The problem is that PrCs aren't done well enough, imo, but that's another thread altogether.
But yeah like someone mentioned, the archetypes of Pathfinder are so well done, PrCs are less and less important.Other way around really. There are lots of bad archetypes just like there were lots of bad PrCs in 3.5. We just tend to nab the good ones(or at least the ones that look good). The problem is that PrCs aren't done well enough, imo, but that's another thread altogether.
One that we've already done, amirite? Thinking about it some more, Bloodmage is pretty good for a couple of useful feats. Rage prophet can also be surprisingly strong, though the gimped spellcasting hurts.
Holy Vindicator is a pretty nice prestige class also.
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Well, I dont know paizo products enough to know whether or not they have been used, but...
-Aldori swordlord can get MONSTROUS ac (higher than ravingdork's seregon), alongside decent to-hit, good saves & decent damage; and while I was looking for advice building one, the apparent advice I got was "dont".
A lot of others are decent with the right build. The biggest problem is that a lot of them are unknown. For the last month I've been starting threads to attempt to optimize 1-2 PrCs a week, but the general response is "what is that?". I'll still try, and there must be gems out there waiting to be discovered.
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I'm experimenting with Low Templar, using a Skulking Stalker Scout Rogue and Order of the Land Cavalier as my basis.
You know, it doesnt pass from minutes to rounds/level; the greater ka stone states you gain the benefit of righteous might, which I interpret as righeous might for mintes/level, since it's modyfying the original power. But I could be wrong.
That's how it SHOULD work anyhow... if so, its a pretty beastly 5 levels of PrC.
I have a guestion regarding the Loremaster's Lore ability. In the beginning of the prestige class section the difference between "character level" and "class level" is given, in the lore description it just says "... adds half his level ..." without saying which it was refering to. So is it character or class level? Since it's similar to the bard's "bardic knowledge" I would gess class level, since bardid knowledge mentions class level. On the other hand having an extra +1 to knowledge skills at 9th level doesn't seem so great, at least it allows untrained knowledge skill checks.
Class abilities always refer to class level, not character level, unless otherwise specified.
Class abilities always refer to class level, not character level, unless otherwise specified.
Thanks Pupsocket. =)