Not to mention all of the spellcasting options that don't involve giving anyone a saving throw: summoning, buffing, some battlefield control, etc.The point there is that it is dumb to focus on one weapon. Even wizards have to more less deal with whatever spells they find. A fighter needs to be flexible. Thankfully weapon groups are very broad and if you don't find something in (Heavy blades) then your GM is probably fudging the loot.Besides, when, EVER does a wizard use more than 1-2 schools of magic? Most (as in nearly all) pick one particular school and roll with itNot nearly the same as a martial picking his weapon, then full attacking with it, no matter what weapon he chose, from 1 to 20...
Mimicking others to make a point only works if the argument actually works reciprocally.
Except your investment in Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specializtion, and Improved Critical become useless if your not wielding your chosen Greatsword.
And guess which hurts more? a Caster not getting his +2 to DC or the Fighter not getting his +2 to hit, +2 to damage, and improved Crit range? (I'll give you a hint, caster's can survive if their SoS spells don't work)
But they do require spell slots. Summoning take augment summoning, superior summoning, + others. Because no one can ever just make a well balanced character. They have to over specialize in one facet of one facet of the game. (Yes I meant to say one facet twice!)
Oh look I cast spells that the boss monster laughs at anyways.
Have you never seen an optimized dedicated save-or-suck/die caster in play before?
Why do I need plus 2 to hit and plus 4 to damage when I have weapon training? That's not the way to play a fighter I find interesting, burning 5 feats for one weapon and one tactic. You can't expect the campaign to drop a nice greatsword for you, no more than you can expect a campaign to only drop spells in your favored school.The point there is that it is dumb to focus on one weapon. Even wizards have to more less deal with whatever spells they find. A fighter needs to be flexible. Thankfully weapon groups are very broad and if you don't find something in (Heavy blades) then your GM is probably fudging the loot.Besides, when, EVER does a wizard use more than 1-2 schools of magic? Most (as in nearly all) pick one particular school and roll with itNot nearly the same as a martial picking his weapon, then full attacking with it, no matter what weapon he chose, from 1 to 20...
Mimicking others to make a point only works if the argument actually works reciprocally.
Except your investment in Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specializtion, and Improved Critical become useless if your not wielding your chosen Greatsword.
And guess which hurts more? a Caster not getting his +2 to DC or the Fighter not getting his +2 to hit, +2 to damage, and improved Crit range? (I'll give you a hint, caster's can survive if their SoS spells don't work)
So.. you play bad fighters? duly noted. Being ok at everthing makes you poor all around. pathfinder is a game that rewards specialization. Nobody cares that the fighter is as good with a greatsword as he is with a greataxe when he is nowhere near as good at the barbarian at hitting things in general...
I honestly considered homebrewing some kind of Knowledge (Martial) skill that Fighters have training in. The skill would allow a PC to figure out an enemy's combat tactics (i.e., learn class levels and feats of an enemy) and would allow a character to gain proficiency in a weapon by training with it over a period of time (I never liked having to waste feats on proficiencies).
You said a "wizard fighter"
If you wanna go "caster fighter" I can bring in a Oracle... Or druid... or cleric... and nearly all will walk all over a fighter (good luck doing something with great dispel killing your boots of flying)
And you see, SF/GSF only increase the DC of something. Funny thing about that, is that most of the good spells don't need saves. You can be a specced Enchanter and still drop your abjuration spells as good as a generalist wizard.
And the fact that you claim a wizard only "ever casts from a few schools anyway" shows you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about casters. Even a blaster will have Stoneskin, Mage Armor, Blur, Dimension Door, and Black Tentacles prepared (none of which are evocation spells).
As for the damage, he trades damage to one thing to kill EVERYTHING. Also he can do it at a range that fighters who are not archers would cry over. Oh! and He does it as a SINGLE STANDARD ACTION. With things like Rod of Quicken he can do some really crazy things.
Seriously, your arguments are weak...
Did you miss it being a parody of your poor argument against the fighter?
Because you clearly know nothing about fighters.
Oh look I cast spells that the boss monster laughs at anyways. I AM SO AWESOME! But boy can I clean up the trash mobs!
Level 20 Wizard.
Casts Fireball
90 damage (Intensify Maximize)+ 30 Damage (bloodline arcana)+ 15d6*.5 (Empower Average 52.5)= 172.5 damage on average from a 3rd level spell with the feat Spell Perfection you can cast using a 5th level slot.
Now for DC:
10+ 13 (36 int)+4 (SF/GSF)+5 (SL)=DC 32 Reflex save (guess what? Most of the big baddies late game have poor reflex).
So that is 172.5 damage to all creatures who fail their reflex save for 1 spell as a standard action. So its not chump change.
Try again...
Omg really Spell perfection on fireball? Pfff. Congrats you built a glass cannon wizard who spends most of his slots not doing what his class does best. Damage. And can cast the same spell over and over again.
So.. you play bad fighters? duly noted. Being ok at everthing makes you poor all around. pathfinder is a game that rewards specialization. Nobody cares that the fighter is as good with a greatsword as he is with a greataxe when he is nowhere near as good at the barbarian at hitting things in general...Why do I need plus 2 to hit and plus 4 to damage when I have weapon training? That's not the way to play a fighter I find interesting, burning 5 feats for one weapon and one tactic. You can't expect the campaign to drop a nice greatsword for you, no more than you can expect a campaign to only drop spells in your favored school.The point there is that it is dumb to focus on one weapon. Even wizards have to more less deal with whatever spells they find. A fighter needs to be flexible. Thankfully weapon groups are very broad and if you don't find something in (Heavy blades) then your GM is probably fudging the loot.Besides, when, EVER does a wizard use more than 1-2 schools of magic? Most (as in nearly all) pick one particular school and roll with itNot nearly the same as a martial picking his weapon, then full attacking with it, no matter what weapon he chose, from 1 to 20...
Mimicking others to make a point only works if the argument actually works reciprocally.
Except your investment in Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specializtion, and Improved Critical become useless if your not wielding your chosen Greatsword.
And guess which hurts more? a Caster not getting his +2 to DC or the Fighter not getting his +2 to hit, +2 to damage, and improved Crit range? (I'll give you a hint, caster's can survive if their SoS spells don't work)
Barbar maxes out at +4 to hit from rage. Weapon training maxes out at +4 to hit...
Oh look I cast spells that the boss monster laughs at anyways.Have you never seen an optimized dedicated save-or-suck/die caster in play before?
Because the GM is just going to let you one shot everything. Because that is fun for everyone.
Barbar maxes out at +4 to hit from rage. Weapon training maxes out at +4 to hit...So.. you play bad fighters? duly noted. Being ok at everthing makes you poor all around. pathfinder is a game that rewards specialization. Nobody cares that the fighter is as good with a greatsword as he is with a greataxe when he is nowhere near as good at the barbarian at hitting things in general...Why do I need plus 2 to hit and plus 4 to damage when I have weapon training? That's not the way to play a fighter I find interesting, burning 5 feats for one weapon and one tactic. You can't expect the campaign to drop a nice greatsword for you, no more than you can expect a campaign to only drop spells in your favored school.The point there is that it is dumb to focus on one weapon. Even wizards have to more less deal with whatever spells they find. A fighter needs to be flexible. Thankfully weapon groups are very broad and if you don't find something in (Heavy blades) then your GM is probably fudging the loot.Besides, when, EVER does a wizard use more than 1-2 schools of magic? Most (as in nearly all) pick one particular school and roll with itNot nearly the same as a martial picking his weapon, then full attacking with it, no matter what weapon he chose, from 1 to 20...
Mimicking others to make a point only works if the argument actually works reciprocally.
Except your investment in Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specializtion, and Improved Critical become useless if your not wielding your chosen Greatsword.
And guess which hurts more? a Caster not getting his +2 to DC or the Fighter not getting his +2 to hit, +2 to damage, and improved Crit range? (I'll give you a hint, caster's can survive if their SoS spells don't work)
And a +4 to will saves... and a +4 to con...
and another bonus to will saves vs pretty much everything that requires will saves.and a nat armor bonus,
and the ability to pounce.
and claws
and the ability to strike someone as an AoO very anyone that attacks you... so yeah.....
(guess what? Most of the big baddies late game have poor reflex).They also tend to have Inmunity and resistance to several types of elemental damage.
My evocation spell of choice is actually metamagic battering blast. Force damage yo'. Put toppling or daze on it. Can do pretty good straight damage too if you put your eggs into it, and if you take greater spell specialization as a wizard you never even have to prepare it!
My evocation spell of choice is actually metamagic battering blast. Force damage yo'. Put toppling or daze on it. Can do pretty good straight damage too if you put your eggs into it, and if you take greater spell specialization as a wizard you never even have to prepare it!(guess what? Most of the big baddies late game have poor reflex).They also tend to have Inmunity and resistance to several types of elemental damage.
Or you could just hit it with a +5 <insert weapon>
Or you could just hit it with a +5 <insert weapon>My evocation spell of choice is actually metamagic battering blast. Force damage yo'. Put toppling or daze on it. Can do pretty good straight damage too if you put your eggs into it, and if you take greater spell specialization as a wizard you never even have to prepare it!(guess what? Most of the big baddies late game have poor reflex).They also tend to have Inmunity and resistance to several types of elemental damage.
Or I could use my Hadouken. Both work just fine. or I could summon up a creature with a +5 equivalent weapon! Lots of options if your a caster. If your a cleric you can make a weapon +5 eventually too!
And a +4 to will saves... and a +4 to con...
and another bonus to will saves vs pretty much everything that requires will saves.
and a nat armor bonus,
and the ability to pounce.
and claws
and the ability to strike someone as an AoO very anyone that attacks you... so yeah.....
All of that is great when the enemy is out of reach and snipping off the rest of the party. You can always throw weapons with your lower to-hit and range than a fighter who took his second group as bows.
Or I could use my Hadouken. Both work just fine. or I could summon up a creature with a +5 equivalent weapon! Lots of options if your a caster. If your a cleric you can make a weapon +5 eventually too!Or you could just hit it with a +5 <insert weapon>My evocation spell of choice is actually metamagic battering blast. Force damage yo'. Put toppling or daze on it. Can do pretty good straight damage too if you put your eggs into it, and if you take greater spell specialization as a wizard you never even have to prepare it!(guess what? Most of the big baddies late game have poor reflex).They also tend to have Inmunity and resistance to several types of elemental damage.
Yep cause no one finds summoning things to do stuff boring. I'm sure only your definition of fun options is all that matters to everyone.
You do know that with improved critical Falchion you take on all the problems with the weapon focus chain aside from burning feats?
Barb>Fighter in most things sadly...Somewhere a developer thought, "You know what a barbarian needs? Pounce, AC boosting, +6 to saves, and the ability to sunder spells." Although like most forum OP builds, I expect it to fall flat in actual play.
It doesn't.
I recommend you also look up the Blaster Wizard guide. It easily outdamages most martials every round putting out 500ish damage a round. And they're not limited by enemies simply moving away. SR is a breeze. Saves are ridiculous. Energy resistances/immunities easily defeated.
A Wizard who wants to blow stuff up, can do so really really well.
And the Wizard does all of this while maintaining his utility casting as well. Along with his totally bongdiggity skill points.
Just going to post some builds from another thread
Dwarf Fighter 20
N Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +28
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 53, touch 24, flat-footed 45 (+15 armor, +8 shield, +7 Dex, +6 natural, +5 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 284 (20d10+160)
Fort +25, Ref +18, Will +17 (+5 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +2 vs. poison, +4 vs. spells and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities bravery +5, defensive training; DR 5/—
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +5 Dueling Adamantine Scimitar +43/+38/+33/+28 (1d6+25/15-20/x2)
Special Attacks hatred, weapon training abilities (heavy blades +6, bows +5, close +3, flails +4)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 30, Dex 24, Con 26, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 5
Base Atk +20; CMB +32 (+36 Sundering); CMD 55 (75 vs. Bull Rush, 59 vs. Disarm, 61 vs. Sunder, 75 vs. Trip)
Feats Critical Focus, Disruptive, Dodge, Furious Focus, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Sunder, Greater Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Greater Weapon Specialization (Scimitar), Improved Critical (Scimitar), Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Ironhide, Lunge, Power Attack -6/+12, Shatterspell (3/day), Shield Focus, Spellbreaker, Steel Soul, Step Up, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
Traits Defender of the Society, Observant (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +7 (+3 jump), Appraise +2 (+4 to determine the price of nonmagic items with precious metals or gemstones), Climb +18, Craft (stonemasonry) +5, Handle Animal +3, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +25, Knowledge (engineering) +18, Perception +28 (+30 to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone walls or floors), Profession (miner) +12, Survival +14 (+16 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +17
Languages Common, Dwarven, Terran, Undercommon
SQ ghost touch, greed, hardy, slow and steady, stability, stonecunning +2, weapon mastery (heavy pick)
Other Gear +5 Mithral Full plate, +5 Ghost touch Buckler, +5 Dueling Adamantine Scimitar, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical perfection +6, Cloak of resistance +5, Gloves of dueling, Handy haversack (1 @ 673.6 lbs), Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Manual of bodily health +4, Manual of gainful exercise +4, Manual of quickness of action +4, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Winged boots (3/day), 33680 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bravery +5 (Ex) +5 to Will save vs. Fear
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Damage Reduction (5/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defender of the Society +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Disruptive +4 DC to cast defensively for those you threaten.
Ghost touch Enhancement and armor bonus count against incorporeal creatures.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Greater Sunder When destroying an item, extra damage is transferred to the wielder.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Ironhide Your skin is thicker and more resilient than that of most of your people.
Prerequisites: Con 13; dwarf, half-orc, or orc.
Benefit: You gain a +1 natural armor bonus due to your unusually tough hide.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.
Shatterspell (3/day) Sunder ongoing spell effect like spell sunder rage power.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Spellbreaker If an enemy you threaten fails to cast defensively, they provoke an AoO from you.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like abilities becomes +4
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Weapon Mastery (Heavy pick) (Ex) Chosen weapon has an improved critical multiplier, always confirms criticals, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +6 (Ex) +6 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +5 (Ex) +5 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Close) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Weapon Training (Flails) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Flails
Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.
HUman
=== Stats ===
Str 22 (28),Dex 14 (20),con 16 (22),Int 12,Wis 16 (22), Cha 8
=== Defense ===
AC : 42 (+15 armor,+5 dex, +5 def, +4 nat +1 insight, +1 luck, +1 doge)
Touch AC: 23
Hp: 264 (20d10+140)
CMD: 51 (71 against grapple and trip)
DR: 5/-
=== Saves ===
Fort: +26
Ref : +19 (plus evasion)
Will: +21 (+26 agains fear, Inmune to mind control for evil creatures, Roll twice from Mind affecting spells and effects.)
=== Attacks ===
Speed: 40 ft
Melee
+5 Speed Adamantine Falchion: +35/+35/+35/+30/+25/+20 (2d4+45 15-20/x3)
Or afther moving
+5 Speed Adamantine Falchion: +35/+35/+30/+25/+20 (2d4+45 15-20/x3)
Ranged
+4 COmposite longbow: +35/+28/+25/+20 (1d8+8 20/x3)
Cmb: +31 (+44 to disarm, sunder and trip)
=== Traits===
Carefully hidden, Defender of the society
=== Feats===
1. Power attack, Combat reflexes, step up
2. Disruptive
3. Iron will
4. WEAPON FOCUS
5. Dodge
6. Lunge
7. Improved Iron will
8. Improved critical (scimitar)
9. Greater fortitude
10. Spellbreaker
11. Teleport tactician
12. Weapon specialization
13. Toughness
14. Greater weapon specialization
15. Ligthing reflexes
16. Greater weapon focus (Falchion)
17. Blinding critical
18. Staggering critical
19. Critical mastery
20. Stunning critical
=== Skills ===
Perception: +38
Stelath: +30
Sense motive: +24
Knowledge (dunegeneering): +24
Acrobatics: +11
Swim: +12
Climb: +12
=== Special ===
Weapon traning 4 (heavy blades, Bows)
Desert Stride
Burst of Speed
Rapid Attack
Lightning Strike
Bravery +5
=== Gear ===
+5 Speed Adamantine Falcion (131 K)
+5 Mithral shadowe Celestial full plate (50 K)
Gloves of dueling (15)
Belt of physical perfection (144K)
+4 Composite longbow (37 K)
+5 Cloack of resistance (25 K)
Pale green prism Ion stone (30 K)
+6 Headband of wisdom (36 K)
+5 ring of protection (50 K)
+4 amulet of nat armor (32 K)
Robes of eyes (120 K)
Ring of evasion (25 K)
Dusty rose Ioun stone (5 K)
Manual of gainful excercise +2 (55 K)
Manual of boily healt (27)
Dark blue romboid Ioun stone (10 K)
Manual of Calm refelction +2 (55)
Boots of striding and sprinting (5,5 K)
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (5,5)
Clear spindle Ion stone + wayfinder (5 K)
Cap of the free thinker (12 K)
===================
Full attacks from this fighter are devastating, and he enjoy a pseudo-pounce ability. Not to mention that his defenses against mind affecting are heavily increased.
Fighter 20
Human
=== Stats ===
Str 26, Dex 30, con 20, Int 9, Wis 16, Cha 7
=== Defense ===
AC: 41 (+11 Armor, +9 Dex, +5 Natural, +5 Deflection, +1 Insight)
Touch AC: 25
FF AC: 41
Hp: 264 (20d10 + 140)
CMD: 54
DR: 5/-
=== Saves ===
Fort: +24
Ref : +23
Will: +16 (+21 vs. Fear)
=== Attacks ===
Speed: 30 ft
+14 Initiative
Ranged +35/+35/+35/+30/+25/+20 (1d8+34 19-20/x4)
=== Feats===
1. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
2. Deadly Aim
3. Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow
4. Weapon Specialization: Composite Longbow
5. Improved Initiative
6. Manyshot
7. Toughness
8. Greater Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow
9. Iron Will
10. Greater Iron Will
11. Improved Precise Shot
12. Greater Weapon Specialization: Composite Longbow
13. Penetrating Strike
14. Great Fortitude
15. Improved Great Fortitude
16. Greater Penetrating Strike
17. Lightning Reflexes
18. Improved Lightning Reflexes
19. Improved Critical (Composite Longbow)
20. Far Shot
Yeah, I really didn't need all these feats--the CRB barely has enough to be worthwhile. You can tell when I got lazy picking them.
=== Special ===
Weapon traning 4 (Bows)
Armor traning 4
Bravery +5
=== Gear ===
+5 Speed Composite Longbow (128k)
+5 Mithril Breastplate of Fire Resistance (47k)
Winged boots (16 K)
Belt of physical perfection (144K)
+5 Cloak of Resistance (25 K)
Greater Bracers of Archery (25 K)
+6 Headband of wisdom (36 K)
+5 ring of protection (50 K)
+5 amulet of nat armor (50 K)
Robes of eyes (120 K)
Ring of evasion (25 K)
Dusty rose Ioun stone (5 K)
Irridescent Spindle Ioun Stone (18 K)
Hand of the Magi + Ring of Freedom of Movement (48 K)
Manual of Quickness of Action +1 (27.5 K)
Manual of Gainful Excercise +4 (110 K)
3x Efficient Quiver (5.4 K)
Eyes of the Eagle (5 K)
HUman
=== Stats ===
Str 22 (28),Dex 14 (20),con 16 (22),Int 12,Wis 16 (22), Cha 8
=== Defense ===
AC: 41 (+14 armor,+5 dex, +5 def, +5 nat +1 insight, +1 dodge)
Touch AC: 22
FF AC: 35
Hp: 284 (20d10+160)
CMD: 51
DR: 5/-
Fire resistence 10.
=== Saves ===
Fort: +26
Ref : +19 (plus evasion)
Will: +21 (+26 agains fear)
=== Attacks ===
Speed: 40 ft
Melee
+5 Speed Adamantine Falchion: +35/+35/+30/+25/+20 (2d4+43 15-20/x3)
Ranged
+4 Composite longbow: +33/+27/+23/+18 (1d8+16 20/x3)
Cmb: +31 (+42 to disarm, sunder and trip)
=== Feats===
1. Power attack, Combat reflexes, step up
2. Disruptive
3. Iron will
4. WEAPON FOCUS
5. Dodge
6. Lunge
7. Improved Iron will
8. Improved critical (scimitar)
9. Greater fortitude
10. Spellbreaker
11. Weapon specialization
12. Stand still
13. Toughness
14. Greater weapon specialization
15. Ligthing reflexes
16. Greater weapon focus (Falchion)
17. Blinding critical
18. Staggering critical
19. Critical mastery
20. Stunning critical
=== Skills ===
Perception: +38
Stelath: +30
Sense motive: +25
Knowledge (dunegeneering): +25
Acrobatics: +12
Swim: +13
Climb: +13
=== Special ===
Weapon traning 4 (heavy blades, Bows)
Armor traning 4
Bravery +5
=== Gear ===
+5 Speed Adamantine Falcion (131 K)
+5 fire resistent Shadowed full plate (45 K)
Winged boots (16 K)
Belt of physical perfection (144K)
+4 Composite longbow (37 K)
+5 Cloack of resistance (25 K)
Pale green prism Ion stone (30 K)
+6 Headband of wisdom (36 K)
+5 ring of protection (50 K)
+5 amulet of nat armor (50 K)
Robes of eyes (120 K)
Ring of evasion (25 K)
Dusty rose Ioun stone (5 K)
Manual of gainful excercise +2 (55 K)
Manual of bodily health (27)
Dark blue romboid Ioun stone (10 K)
Manual of Calm refelction +2 (55)
Boots of striding and sprinting (5,5 K)
Male Human Fighter 20
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +24
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 41, touch 22, flat-footed 35 (+14 armor, +5 Dex, +5 natural, +5 deflection, +1 dodge) AC 47 with Combat Expertise
hp 284 (20d10+160)
Fort +23, Ref +18, Will +17 (+5 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +5, fortification 25%; DR 5/—
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +5 Armor spikes +40/+35/+30/+25 (1d6+20/x2) and
. . +5 Speed Adamantine Guisarme +43/+43/+38/+33/+28 (2d4+31/19-20/x4) or . . +5 Speed Adamantine Guisarme + Power Attack +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 (2d4+49/19-20/x4) (that's 216 damage on a critical hit...ouch!)
and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +35/+30/+25/+20 (1d3+15/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +35/+30/+25/+20 (1d3+15/x2)
Ranged +2 Composite longbow (Str +12) +29/+24/+19/+14 (1d8+16/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +1, bows +2, close +3, pole arms +4)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 34, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 13, Wis 18, Cha 8
Base Atk +20; CMB +32 (+36 Disarming, +34 Grappling, +36 Sundering, +36 Tripping) (Using guisarm, +47 Disarming, +47 Sundering, +47 Tripping); CMD 54 (56 vs. Disarm, 56 vs. Grapple, 56 vs. Sunder, 56 vs. Trip) (+6 CMD using Combat Expertise)
Feats Combat Expertise +/-6, Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round), Dodge, Greater Disarm, Greater Sunder, Greater Trip, Greater Weapon Focus (Guisarme), Greater Weapon Specialization (Guisarme), Improved Critical (Guisarme), Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Iron Will (1/day), Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Lunge, Power Attack -6/+12, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Guisarme), Weapon Specialization (Guisarme)
Skills Acrobatics +4, Climb +31, Escape Artist +4, Fly +4, Handle Animal +4, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (engineering) +10, Perception +24, Ride +10, Stealth +4, Survival +13, Swim +21
Languages Common, Draconic
SQ ghost touch, weapon mastery (guisarme)
Other Gear +5 Armor spikes (magical), Fortification (light), , +2 Composite longbow (Str +12), +5 Speed Adamantine Guisarme, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical perfection +6, Cloak of resistance +5, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Manual of bodily health +2, Manual of gainful exercise +5, Manual of quickness of action +2, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Winged boots (3/day), 789 PP, 1 GP
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Improved Iron Will (1/day) - 0/1
Winged boots (3/day) - 0/3
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bravery +5 (Ex) +5 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Expertise +/-6 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Damage Reduction (5/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Fortification 25% You have a chance to negate critical hits on attacks.
Ghost touch Enhancement and armor bonus count against incorporeal creatures.
Greater Disarm When disarming a foe, their weapon lands 15 ft away in a random direction.
Greater Sunder When destroying an item, extra damage is transferred to the wielder.
Greater Trip Foes you trip provoke AoO when they are knocked prone.
Improved Disarm You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when disarming.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) Can re-roll a Will save, but must take the second result.
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.
Weapon Mastery (Guisarme) (Ex) Chosen weapon has an improved critical multiplier, always confirms criticals, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Close) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Weapon Training (Pole Arms) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole Arms
Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ugh. Level 20 builds are so meaningless since gold fixes all the problems inherent in the class itself.
Ugh. Level 20 builds are so meaningless since gold fixes all the problems inherent in the class itself.
Tell that to the rogue...
Ugh. Level 20 builds are so meaningless since gold fixes all the problems inherent in the class itself.
Also part of the treadmill effect is that saves go up by +5 for everyone, and everyone has at least a +6 to darn near everything they want.
They still love their full attack though. That's one of the bigger downsides to fighters. 1-20 full attack forever. Though at 1-5 you might only do one. Feats tend to not give options, they tend to make you do more damage with your full attack. Weapon focus line is all numbers for instance.
Ugh. Level 20 builds are so meaningless since gold fixes all the problems inherent in the class itself.Tell that to the rogue...
Its exactly why we don't bother with level 20 builds in the rogue thread. You can make a solid 20th level rogue. Its still more useful to have pretty much any other kind of party member but it works.
Its exactly why we don't bother with level 20 builds in the rogue thread. You can make a solid 20th level rogue. Its still more useful to have pretty much any other kind of party member but it works.Ugh. Level 20 builds are so meaningless since gold fixes all the problems inherent in the class itself.Tell that to the rogue...
Bullshit. No amount of money makes sneak attack a viable core mechanic.
Ugh. Level 20 builds are so meaningless since gold fixes all the problems inherent in the class itself.Also part of the treadmill effect is that saves go up by +5 for everyone, and everyone has at least a +6 to darn near everything they want.
They still love their full attack though. That's one of the bigger downsides to fighters. 1-20 full attack forever. Though at 1-5 you might only do one. Feats tend to not give options, they tend to make you do more damage with your full attack. Weapon focus line is all numbers for instance.
*Eye roll* the fighter (or any martial for that matter) is not for you if you don't like full attacking.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Keep it civil, folks. Thanks!
B*$&$!+!. No amount of money makes sneak attack a viable core mechanic.Its exactly why we don't bother with level 20 builds in the rogue thread. You can make a solid 20th level rogue. Its still more useful to have pretty much any other kind of party member but it works.Ugh. Level 20 builds are so meaningless since gold fixes all the problems inherent in the class itself.Tell that to the rogue...
I disagree. There are several methods that come to fruition by level 20. It's quite easy to make it work by then. Gold shores up all the weak saves and there are enough attack boosters to hit reliably at that level.
*Eye roll* the fighter (or any martial for that matter) is not for you if you don't like full attacking.Ugh. Level 20 builds are so meaningless since gold fixes all the problems inherent in the class itself.Also part of the treadmill effect is that saves go up by +5 for everyone, and everyone has at least a +6 to darn near everything they want.
They still love their full attack though. That's one of the bigger downsides to fighters. 1-20 full attack forever. Though at 1-5 you might only do one. Feats tend to not give options, they tend to make you do more damage with your full attack. Weapon focus line is all numbers for instance.
So what else exactly is the fighter expected to do with himself? That sort of was the OP's question.
*Eye roll* the fighter (or any martial for that matter) is not for you if you don't like full attacking.Ugh. Level 20 builds are so meaningless since gold fixes all the problems inherent in the class itself.Also part of the treadmill effect is that saves go up by +5 for everyone, and everyone has at least a +6 to darn near everything they want.
They still love their full attack though. That's one of the bigger downsides to fighters. 1-20 full attack forever. Though at 1-5 you might only do one. Feats tend to not give options, they tend to make you do more damage with your full attack. Weapon focus line is all numbers for instance.
Is a fighter for you if you like mechanics that support more than full attacking?
Oh look I cast spells that the boss monster laughs at anyways.Have you never seen an optimized dedicated save-or-suck/die caster in play before?
Heck, my save or suck witch has been rocking it up, and she's still in what are typically regarded as the caster doldrums band of levels (just hit level 3). Not feeling the slightest bit of low level caster angst.
Do I expect life to get worse when she's high enough level to be dropping a quickened Ill Omen before her save or suck?
Hell no.
Most things that can cast Will-based effects are as weak against combat maneuvers as the fighter is against Will spells. The exceptions are mainly some outsiders, and of course, dragons. Dragons are going to be a team effort no matter what.
So let's say you notice there's a bad guy spellcaster. Move within 30 feet, then ready an action to move adjacent to him if he casts any spell or uses any SLA. Whatever he was about to cast is probably now garbage. Or let's say you can't get any closer than 60 feet. Start bullrushing him. Oh, no, he takes an AoO with his dagger. If your party cleric casts remove fear on you, you know what you can do? Trip a lich. And let's get real here, the fighter's Will save is not much worse than ranger's, but who hates ranger? How is a wizard's low Fortitude any less of a weakness than a fighter's low Will? So while I think the fighter could use some rebalancing (wizards get new spells every level, why doesn't a fighter get a feat every level?), fighters are plenty strong enough to be full contributors. Yes, fighters do what any other martial can do. That's where the feats come in.
Most things that can cast Will-based effects are as weak against combat maneuvers as the fighter is against Will spells. The exceptions are mainly some outsiders, and of course, dragons. Dragons are going to be a team effort no matter what.
So let's say you notice there's a bad guy spellcaster. Move within 30 feet, then ready an action to move adjacent to him if he casts any spell or uses any SLA. Whatever he was about to cast is probably now garbage. Or let's say you can't get any closer than 60 feet. Start bullrushing him. Oh, no, he takes an AoO with his dagger. If your party cleric casts remove fear on you, you know what you can do? Trip a lich. And let's get real here, the fighter's Will save is not much worse than ranger's, but who hates ranger? How is a wizard's low Fortitude any less of a weakness than a fighter's low Will? So while I think the fighter could use some rebalancing (wizards get new spells every level, why doesn't a fighter get a feat every level?), fighters are plenty strong enough to be full contributors. Yes, fighters do what any other martial can do. That's where the feats come in.
Combat Maneuvers are a melee thing while Will saves range in distance? The fact that positioning effectively negates the majority of tactics.
Moving next to him is hardly a big deal. Casting defensively is super easy with minimal investment. Quickened spells don't provoke. He can tie you up in a Wall of Force pretty easily. Icy Prison handily shuts down a lot of characters. Emergency Force Bubble gives him tons of time to think about how he's going to kill you. Or he could leave to fight on better terms next time.
A Wizard's low fort doesn't mean as much as the Fighter's low Will save. Why? Because most things that are dropping a fort save do it in melee. That's why the Fighter has a good fort save. If something is in melee with the Wizard then there's already a problem.
A Ranger's Will Save is always going to be better than the Fighter's since he prioritizes his Wisdom enough to get all his spells.
But yeah, Fighters contribute in combat. Tis a shame they don't do much besides.
Any investment in combat maneuvers is one somewhat wasted since CMD scales so outrageously. But if you only fight humanoids or only play at low levels I suppose it's fine.
It's interesting that the Barbarian still makes a better Maneuver user with Strength Surge.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Combat Maneuvers are a melee thing while Will saves range in distance? The fact that positioning effectively negates the majority of tactics.
So are we playing vast, featureless level plane chess again? I hate that game. :)
Moving next to him is hardly a big deal. Casting defensively is super easy with minimal investment. Quickened spells don't provoke. He can tie you up in a Wall of Force pretty easily. Icy Prison handily shuts down a lot of characters. Emergency Force Bubble gives him tons of time to think about how he's going to kill you. Or he could leave to fight on better terms next time.
The first thing is, did he cast defensively? If he did, he's risking spell failure. Meanwhile, you're still standing next to him. So, for his sake, I hope he did cast Wall of Force.
A Wizard's low fort doesn't mean as much as the Fighter's low Will save. Why? Because most things that are dropping a fort save do it in melee. That's why the Fighter has a good fort save. If something is in melee with the Wizard then there's already a problem.
Disintegrate. Ray of Exhaustion. Stunning Fist. Stunning Fist is indeed a melee effect, but not one a spellcaster wants to toy with. But really, disintegrate is the one that keep coming to my mind... And of course, melee does matter, if there is "a problem."
But if a wizard wants to restrict themselves to spells with longer than Close range, and stay away from any feature in the room or area that could grant cover, and keep moving, they can play a pretty good running game against the fighter.
A Ranger's Will Save is always going to be better than the Fighter's since he...
Sure. Like two points, at least. Unless it's a fear effect, then the fighter is still even. Or unless the fighter uses one of his numerous discretionary feats to take Iron Will. But yes, a good bit of the time, most rangers have a slightly better Will save.
So are we playing vast, featureless level plane chess again? I hate that game. :)
The first thing is, did he cast defensively? If he did, he's risking spell failure. Meanwhile, you're still standing next to him. So, for his sake, I hope he did cast Wall of Force.
Disintegrate. Ray of Exhaustion. Stunning Fist. Stunning Fist is indeed a melee effect, but not one a spellcaster wants to toy with. But really, disintegrate is the one that keep coming to my mind... And of course, melee does matter, if there is "a problem."
1. Positioning assumes a NOT vast, featureless plane. =P I hate that game too. It's out of context. Point is, Combat Maneuvers require you to be in melee whereas Will Saves tend to be from a distance. So chances are, you get hit with a Will Save before you hit with a Combat Maneuver.
2. Quickened Spells. Depending on the circumstances, a fly spell is pretty mitigating.
3. Unsurprising that 2 out of 3 are spells. Emergency Force Bubble keeps them from hitting you. =P (That spell is cray cray)
I'm not saying melee effects don't matter, its just they tend to come up less often for the Wizard due to party/minion positioning. It's a small weakness, not a glaring one like Will Saves on a Fighter. Not to mention the multitude of ways they can avoid saves.
EDIT: I'll point out that for shutting down casters, an Archer is usually the best option despite spells easily shutting them down. Readied action to shoot them when they cast works wonders. But Archer Fighters are INCREDIBLY boring heh. Full attack after full attack.
The reason i retired my latest figther. ( a lawfull good sligthly fanatic religious guy with a scimetar and a turban) was that the exitment in combat wasent there. He had power attack, combat expertise and all kind of Nice feats and was even charismatic with a good diplomacy and sense motive. But doing what he did Best, combat, was boring with him. He was killing løft and rigth and had great defense but. The feeling of dynamic combat wasent there.
He was level 8 when he retired.
So let's say you notice there's a bad guy spellcaster. Move within 30 feet, then ready an action to move adjacent to him if he casts any spell or uses any SLA. Whatever he was about to cast is probably now garbage.
It so happens that my 15th level fighter and the party faced off against a number of wizards in this past adventure (something about the mage's guild getting taken over from within by unpleasant things from another reality).
This is the internet, so you'll have to imagine the sarcasm when I say:
"Yeah, it's totally as easy and effective in game as in theory."
The last time the party fought a significant arcanist encounter who didn't have barriers in place to stop this sort of thing was eight adventures ago, I think in late 2010 or early 2011. And that was a summoner from the APG playtest, eidolon melee was probably in his game plan all along.
I think that, just this past chapter, for notable wizard and sorcerer fights we had:
the sorcerer who was behind mirror image, blur, and three different walls of force
the wizard hiding behind clockworks and stone golems in narrow corridors
the conjurer hiding, invisible and mirror imaged while dropping summons and illusions
the evoker flying and dropping area blasts while dispelling the fighters' flying
the high wizard who cast a bunch of buffs and spelled up ahead of time to reach extreme AC and cause any attack which missed her to deal its damage to the attacker.
the serpent mage who set an ambush at the top of a spiral staircase tower, projecting his spells through an illusion, with a dispelling trap halfway up to prevent flying foes from closing with the real version.
Five mages, each unlike the other, all using different tricks. Zero mages on whom just readying an action to follow them around would have been even marginally effective. Not even the sorcerer who was like APL-4 or so.
Interjection:
The ruling on metamagic rods for blaster wizards had no effect on the tactic of a blaster mage, it had an effect on the cost.
It effectively made it so that you have to use Greater Metamagic Rods to cast meta'd spells in the 7-9 level range, instead of lower level ones.
Everything still works, it just costs the wizard more gold.
Be also aware it is VERY hard to make a good blaster wizard that also has gonzo saving throw modifiers, because everything is feat intensive. A blaster wizard's strongest point is getting his caster level up, not his save DC's. Without early caster level boosts, his blasting simply is not up to snuff like it needs to be.
The rest is totally accurate. You have to build a blaster wizard to be effective, devoting feats and gear to it.
You don't have to really build a god wizard, only thing you need is the right spells. So any wizard can be a god wizard, but not every god wizard can be a blaster.
==Aelryinth
So what else exactly is the fighter expected to do with himself? That sort of was the OP's question.*Eye roll* the fighter (or any martial for that matter) is not for you if you don't like full attacking.Ugh. Level 20 builds are so meaningless since gold fixes all the problems inherent in the class itself.Also part of the treadmill effect is that saves go up by +5 for everyone, and everyone has at least a +6 to darn near everything they want.
They still love their full attack though. That's one of the bigger downsides to fighters. 1-20 full attack forever. Though at 1-5 you might only do one. Feats tend to not give options, they tend to make you do more damage with your full attack. Weapon focus line is all numbers for instance.
I just don't see the problem with full attacking every round.
Out-of-combat fighter was far more interesting for me than out-of-combat rogue.
I think TOZ answered the question quite well in the first comment.
Considering there's another 9 pages of comments (that as far as I can tell mostly argue that the fighter is indeed dull or lacking in some way) I respectfully disagree - TOZ's answer was needlessly dismissive.
Why did you find out-of-combat fighter more interesting to play than out-of-combat rogue?
If characters that specialize in fighting are dull, then why did the majority of Mass Effect players (according to Bioware research) choose Soldier over classes like Engineer, Biotic or Sentinel?
Every class in Mass Effect is equally viable out of combat (as far as I know your class makes no difference except a few dialogue options), and every class has a variety of powers to use IN combat. If the soldier in Mass Effect could only aim and shoot and only take the Renegade path options, you'd have a fair argument.
However, in the meantime it is really not a fair comparison.
If characters that specialize in fighting are dull, then why did the majority of Mass Effect players (according to Bioware research) choose Soldier over classes like Engineer, Biotic or Sentinel?
Really? I played Soldier my first play through, but everyone after that I played another class and thought "Wow this is so much better now!". I know soldier was easier for first timers because simplicity but biotics ability to make people ragdoll was hilariously awesome. I forget which one I liked best, I think it was the biotic/combat or the tech/combat.
Edit: Keep in mind Mass Effect is an entirely different game with entirely different rules.
Every class in Mass Effect are equally viable out of combat (as far as I know your class makes no difference except a few dialogue options), and every class has a variety of powers to use IN combat. If the soldier in Mass Effect could only aim and shoot and only take the Renegade path options, you'd have a fair argument.
However, in the meantime it is really not a fair comparison.
Depended on your class really. You wanted a hacker if I remember correctly. Bioware loves their rogues. Of course you always had slaves... err... npc companions with no mind of their own to play the rogue for you.
Why did you find out-of-combat fighter more interesting to play than out-of-combat rogue?
I find that it is easier to move the plot a long when you stand at the front of the party.
All being the rogue did is give me more mechanical ways to do things out of combat, which IMO are the least fun things you can do out of combat. (aside from some very situation cases)
Figther lack of skill points and other calss features is jsut unjustifiable.
The fighter's skill list is crap anyways. You really don't need more than 2+int to get what you want out of it.
I find that having a high strength score is about half of all mechanical out of combat actions.