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Yeesh. I'd take the +5 bow. Overcome alignment-based DR? Yes, please! You can't take a feat to cover that.Some PC builds don't have to. A bard player I know, can add +3 to his bow at lvl. 9. Give him a +2 keen bow and as a swift action he turns it into a +5 keen bow.
Arcane Duelist bards get the +1 at 6, +2 at 9. Though if the bard in question is an Aasimar, then it is possible.
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Keen on a longbow is not even close to worth the cost. In terms of average damage it's equivalent to adding 1 damage per 11 points of multipliable damage done without it at best - less if using Manyshot, or if much of the damage of a triple crit would be wasted as it often is. So if you do d8+17 base, adding keen gets you all of 1 more average damage than just increasing the enhancement bonus by one, at the cost of -1 to hit which is frankly terrible.
An item that breaks normal rules appearing on a chronicle without being noted is probably not good but in this case it's not for balance reasons.
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ERic- as others have said this is nothing new there are tons of chronicle sheets that have cool and unique boons. Just because the item is on 1 chronicle should not make it legal for everyone, that is the entire purpose of a boon, to get something unique and cool.
Tony- it is probably a problem because he doesn't know what to metagame so he gets the item for whatever character he wants it for.
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So I admit, the keen longbow isn't broken and I think it's a cool thing to allow players who've played this game to have. However, we should probably have a more general ruling on such things, as I know of at least one other technically illegal item on a chronicle. It's also not really game breaking (potion of see invisibility) and again falls under the heading of a cool boon that probably wasn't originally meant to be a unique item but was likely just a mistake by the author. But it's possible there's more out there and maybe we should have a more general ruling?
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Not to mention that Improved Critical (Longbow) works with all your longbows, both your primary longbow, and whatever backup you have in case someone disarms or sunders your longbow...
And, to be honest, for most non-primary longbow users, Adaptive is much the better enhancement to get. If you aren't running your non-Str-based archer, the odds are fairly high that Str is what you are most likely to be adding those level and item enhancements to. Also great for a Barbarian, since the longbow is perfectly suited for you whether you are Raging or not.
Oh, and for that feat for an Atonement? It is S4, not S5; and my PC who got it, used it for the feat Butterfly's Sting, which lowered his (already low) damage potential, although it can improve the total party DPR...
Also, for that +X to a weapon, that is a generic ability of the Magus class, too. And the Blade Bound Magus gets a "free" weapon, which has the ability to be enhanced in many ways, including Keen.
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Is fixing the Chronice sheet too much harder than saying that that one bow is an exception to the rule? Not too much more difficult. I see it's a difficult matter either direction in terms of spreading the word. On one side we have those who will view the keen longbow as an incorrect anomaly one way or another. On the other we have folks who received the Chronicle sheet, purchased the bow, and may only discover some time later that "Whoops, you're not allowed to have that even though it appeared to be legal when you got the Chronicle sheet." Thoughts?
Good points as to the difficulties for both. Perhaps the best solution would be to do both? Declare approval of the chronicle sheets already received, and fix the chronicle sheets going forward (by either removing the bow, or clearly declaring it to be an exception).
And, to be honest, for most non-primary longbow users, Adaptive is much the better enhancement to get.
Not the best example, since Adaptive is +1000gp, not an enhancement equivalent bonus, which means it very easily is added to this particular bow.
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Good points as to the difficulties for both. Perhaps the best solution would be to do both? Declare approval of the chronicle sheets already received, and fix the chronicle sheets going forward (by either removing the bow, or clearly declaring it to be an exception).
That makes more work for John without really solving anything -- you still have people running around with the keen bows and GMs being confused by it (despite it clearly being on a Chronicle).
I find it ironic that people complain and whine about there not being interesting and unique things on Chronicles, but when one shows up then there's an uproar about how it's not a legal option and it's confusing. I just see this whole discussion as discouraging John from including anything that's not straight out of the books on Chronicles in the future. It's certainly easier for them to stick with stock items when they do treasure.
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Good points as to the difficulties for both. Perhaps the best solution would be to do both? Declare approval of the chronicle sheets already received, and fix the chronicle sheets going forward (by either removing the bow, or clearly declaring it to be an exception).That makes more work for John without really solving anything -- you still have people running around with the keen bows and GMs being confused by it (despite it clearly being on a Chronicle).
It reduces further damage on both fronts. Doing nothing leaves much to be desired.
I find it ironic that people complain and whine about there not being interesting and unique things on Chronicles, but when one shows up then there's an uproar about how it's not a legal option and it's confusing. I just see this whole discussion as discouraging John from including anything that's not straight out of the books on Chronicles in the future. It's certainly easier for them to stick with stock items when they do treasure.
I neither complain about lack of unique items on Chronicles, nor do I believe John will be discouraged by a mistake. Clear exceptions are welcome, confusion-causing errors are not.
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I didn't say *you* complained about a lack of unique items, but rather that there were people that did. It goes back to not being able to please everyone.
Group A: People complaining there are not enough unique or interesting items on PFS Chronicle sheets.
Group B: People complaining about an unlabeled illegal item on a PFS Chronicle sheet.Overlap between A & B? Small. Approximately 10% fit both based on posts from a sample of the first ten posters in this thread (excluding venture officers) that include the word 'Chronicle' and either 'interesting' or 'unique'.
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Jon,
For my part, I'dlike to see unique things on the Chronicles, like a liquor that lets my character see invisible foes when I quaff it. That's one of the benefits of being a Pathfinder: finding weird stuff. It helps distinguish my character from similarly-built colleagues who have had different adventures.
But I'd want to make sure that the Chronicle lists it as an elixir, rather than a potion, and that the text makes clear that the item is not avialable to my colleagues who get enough Fame to buy any 600-gold item on the market.
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As I understand it, the bow in question is a +1 keen longbow, correct? If that is the case then adaptive is not an option, as adaptive says "This ability can only be placed on composite bows."
There is a +1 Keen Composite (STR +2) Longbow available on one single chronicle, so you can add Adaptive to it. I've been considering buying it for my Zen Archer, and now that I know it's legal and (hopefully) won't be changed soon, I'll look into buying it.
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Again, I'm not complaining about unique items on Chronicles, and I wish people would stop saying that. A note on the Chronicle saying, "This item is a unique item allowed by this Chronicle" would have made things crystal clear. As it was, it looked like a mistake. (In fact, probably was a mistake in the module, but we're keeping it anyway, which is great.)
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As I understand it, the bow in question is a +1 keen longbow, correct? If that is the case then adaptive is not an option, as adaptive says "This ability can only be placed on composite bows."
That was my bad earlier up thread, recalling incorrectly that it was just a regular longbow. It is indeed composite.
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I guess I'm just too simple-minded, but when I see something like that on a Chronicle after Season 0, my assumption is that it's intentional rather than an error. Maybe I place too much faith in John and the previous developers for the campaign.
Overlap between A & B? Small. Approximately 10% fit both based on posts from a sample of the first ten posters in this thread (excluding venture officers) that include the word 'Chronicle' and either 'interesting' or 'unique'.
It doesn't matter if there's overlap between the two groups. One of the big complaints on these boards for a good while have been about there not being unique and interesting items on Chronicle sheets. Something unique shows up, and now it's got to be a mistake and requires clarification. I see irony in that.
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It doesn't matter if there's overlap between the two groups. One of the big complaints on these boards for a good while have been about there not being unique and interesting items on Chronicle sheets. Something unique shows up, and now it's got to be a mistake and requires clarification. I see irony in that.
Historically I believe the campaign rules was to bar the purchase of illegal items - such as potions of shield even if it was on the chronicle sheet. Because it usually resulted from an oversight on part of the writer or editor.
The big issues here is that the Pathfinder development team intentionally removed the ability to add Keen to a ranged weapon when it changed over from 3.5.
Unique items that are unpublished items appear on a chronicle sheet usually have a full item stat block detailing what the item does along with the price. Since the keen bow falls outside of current game rules, and does not have a full stat sheet it is a bit of a gray area.
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The big issues here is that the Pathfinder development team intentionally removed the ability to add Keen to a ranged weapon when it changed over from 3.5.
FYI - Keen was not valid in 3.5 on ranged weapons either.
#1 reason why, when intentional, 'unique items' like this need explanatory text is that without it we don't know. We don't know if it's a mistake. We don't know if it's intentional. We don't even know how it's supposed to work necessarily.
For instance, Keen does not have the footnote that "Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition." So great, you have a keen bow. No help to the arrows...
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For instance, Keen does not have the footnote that "Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition." So great, you have a keen bow. No help to the arrows...
Neither does Bane. Are we to assume arrows shot from a Bane bow only gain the extra +2 enhancement bonus and not the 2d6 damage? Since it's the bow that deals an extra 2d6, not the arrows? (Although I love the idea of my elvencraft longbow back in 3.5 getting an extra 2d6 against certain targets when I hit them over the head.)
Do we run the risk of this item being a must have for ranged characters? Once it becomes public knowedge this item is available and on which chronicle (because it will), will players run this module just to get this item? Maybe. Maybe making it not upgradeabke wil make it less attractive at higher level play.
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Do we run the risk of this item being a must have for ranged characters? Once it becomes public knowedge this item is available and on which chronicle (because it will), will players run this module just to get this item? Maybe. Maybe making it not upgradeabke wil make it less attractive at higher level play.
I don't think there's any great need to discourage taking this thing - it just isn't all that good. You're better off with another +1, or saving up for holy.
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I agree, and besides, the information that this has been out has been around for a while. Just look at the original post's date.
I don't think there's any great need to discourage taking this thing - it just isn't all that good. You're better off with another +1, or saving up for holy.
48 days. Not much.
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Do we run the risk of this item being a must have for ranged characters? Once it becomes public knowedge this item is available and on which chronicle (because it will), will players run this module just to get this item? Maybe. Maybe making it not upgradeabke wil make it less attractive at higher level play.
James, given that it is on a non-Tier 1 chronicle, that means that, at most, a player can get three chronicles with this item on it.
Once for playing.
Once for GMing.
One final time, either GMing or playing, using a GM star replay.
And, overall, if someone wants to spend 20% (or more) of their usable once per lifetime star replays to get this bow for a third PC, more power to them.
My high level PC wouldn't want to trade in his +1 Seeking Longbow for a +1 Keen Longbow. Partly because he already has the Improved Critical feat for all longbows...
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2) Please do bring weird anomalies in magic items to my attention. Some are fairly innocuous, such as a potion of restoration that I recall appears somewhere; it's easily as expensive as the spellcasting service and provides minimal if any advantage—not necessarily worth changing a Chronicle sheet that's been out for years. Some might be strange enough that they require immediate attention, such as a hypothetical potion of wish, +1 vorpal full plate, or even a +2 longsword that accidentally lost a digit so that it's selling for 831 gp. I'll aim to call out any such exceptional items or combinations on Chronicle sheets in the future to note that "yes, you're reading this correctly."
Does this mean that potions of see invisibility and other personal spells which appear on chronicle sheets are legal to purchase?