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Greetings all,
I have question about Improved Natural Attack and how it stacks with other size affecting things. One of my players is running a Bloodrager for the playtest with the Abyssal Bloodline, which gives him claws that do 1d8 at level 7. He has Aspect of the Gorilla, Demonic Bulk (essentially enlarge person) and a party druid who can cast Strong Jaw on him. The debate is how those effects interact.
Demonic Bulk expressly makes you larger, Strong Jaw and Aspect of the Gorilla do not (although the flavor text says your arms get longer, you do not increase a size category). Pending how you look at this, it can get out of hand quickly.
The issue is whether or not these effects move you along the Improved Natural Attack damage progression, or the Strong Jaw damage progression:
Improved Natural Attack
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
So that would mean he is attacking at level 8 at
1d8/1d8(start) -> 2d6/2d6(improved) ->3d6(Deamon bulk)->4d6/4d6(Gorilla aspect)->(strong jaw over the chart so double) 8d6/8d6-> 16d6/16d6
Looking at it, it seems to me that it comes down to this
I'm *thinking* Improved Natural Attack is a fixed bonus. X monster picks up the feat, improves one step. If it happened to be large, or gargantuan at the time, it goes up. No problem.
The feat takes something made out of wood and makes it stone...seems legit.
However, if you start growing and stacking things on *top* of that, you don't follow the INA progression, you follow the spell/effect's progression. Strong Jaw expressly says this spell makes these attacks work like this, so that would override INA in my mind.
That, and doing 16d6/16d6 EVER, much less at level 8 is flatly stupid. A mythic red dragon doesn't hit that hard!
Therefore:
Claw: 1d8 Base > Demonic Bulk 2d6 > Gorilla 2d8 > Strong Jaw 4d8
Bite: 1d4 Base > Demonic Bulk 1d6 > Strong Jaw 2d6
And curve ball: Does Aspect of Gorilla even stack with Improved Natural Attack?
Gorilla: Your arms become long, flexible, and strong like those of a great ape. Your unarmed damage die type increases by one step, and you gain a +4 competence bonus on combat maneuver checks when making the grapple or reposition combat maneuver.
I appreciate your thought, or even if you can direct me towards this has been officially addressed before, thanks!
also would Feral Combat Training effect Aspect of Gorilla if it doesn't?
Feral Combat Training (Combat)
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
also some one could arguable throw lead blades in there as well
School transmutation; Level ranger 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target touch
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are. For instance, a Medium longsword normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if benefiting from lead blades. Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses one of your weapons to make an attack it deals damage as normal for its size.
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Aspect of the gorilla states:
Gorilla: Your arms become long, flexible, and strong like those of a great ape. Your unarmed damage die type increases by one step, and you gain a +4 competence bonus on combat maneuver checks when making the grapple or reposition combat maneuver.
This mentions unarmed damage progression not natural attacks. Those are two different things.
Now with Feral Combat Training mentioned above this may change how I would rule it.
if we follow strong jaw we would end up with
1d8/1d8(start) -> 2d6/2d6(improved) ->2d8(Demon bulk)->3d6/3d6(Gorilla aspect)->(strong jaw over the chart so double) 2d8/2d8-> 4d8/4d8
this is a 1d8 long sword for comparison:
Medium 1d8, Large 2d6, Huge 3d6, Gargantuan 4d6, Colossal 6d6
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm
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As noted only INA, Enlarge and Strong Jaw would stack unless he has Feral Combat Training: claws as well, in which case Aspect of the Gorilla would then stack.
Realistically it's not that OP at all, Monks can do much the same with very similar effects and spells and do bear in mind that it's multiple rounds of preparation required using spells with a relatively short duration. A single slow, hold, entangle, etc spell or worse a mind control or confusion effect undoes all of it and makes those rounds wasted.
However his dice progression is way off, he would have the following, we'll ignore Aspect of the Gorilla for now as it requires both Weapon Focus and then Feral Combat Training in the NA and as such can also only be taken once (feats that can be taken multiple times state as much).
Base: 1d8/1d4 (Bite)
INA: 2d6/1d4 (Note it only improves ONE type of NA)
Demonic Bulk: 3d6/1d6
Strong Jaw: 6d6/2d6 (he is NOT already Gargantuan or Colossal as mentioned in Strong Jaw so he doesn't get to automatically double it, he has to follow normal damage dice progression which is listed under INA.)
If he DID have Aspect of the Gorilla and the required feats he'd reach: 8d6/3d6
The chart to use is http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/improved-natural-attack imo, he is using NA, this is the damage increases chart for NA and since his size never gets beyond Large you ignore the text in Strong Jaw relating to Gargantuan/Colossal creatures as it specifically says if the creature already *is* one of those size catagories, not *if the creatures attacks count as* or if the modifer takes you off the chart.
Can you all mark this thread as a faq candidate, please?
But I'm enjoying the point/counter points, for sure.
We ran into something similar when a Druid/Wizard in our group stacks all of her buffs and can go crazy. And while Surthainn is definitely right that it only lasts 8ish minutes, that is 48 rounds of combat, which is essentially several sessions worth of conflict.
We are running Wrath of the Righteous, and they'll be gaining their first Mythic tier soon, so this problem may actually only be beginning. Although it still doesn't seem right to me that a level 8 character should be so strong, rather than ban things I tend to just attack them with versions of themselves. If this setup really is that powerful, I'll just attack the group with ten of them and let hilarity ensue.
I would agree with Suthainn on this. It takes up a lot of feats/spells to make it happen too. Just don't get dominated. Cuz I don't want you hitting my squishy archer with that.
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Fun fact: The character in question got Dominated last session, and did in fact liquify the sorcerer in a single turn.
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Can you all mark this thread as a faq candidate, please?
But I'm enjoying the point/counter points, for sure.We ran into something similar when a Druid/Wizard in our group stacks all of her buffs and can go crazy. And while Surthainn is definitely right that it only lasts 8ish minutes, that is 48 rounds of combat, which is essentially several sessions worth of conflict.
We are running Wrath of the Righteous, and they'll be gaining their first Mythic tier soon, so this problem may actually only be beginning. Although it still doesn't seem right to me that a level 8 character should be so strong, rather than ban things I tend to just attack them with versions of themselves. If this setup really is that powerful, I'll just attack the group with ten of them and let hilarity ensue.
If you're looking for something similar to hit them with then throw a few Enlarged, Strong Jawed Babau demons with INA at them, 2 claws and a bite PLUS they deal damage to weapons/natural attacks that hit them and are thematically appropriate.
If you're looking for something similar to hit them with then throw a few Enlarged, Strong Jawed Babau demons with INA at them, 2 claws and a bite PLUS they deal damage to weapons/natural attacks that hit them and are thematically appropriate.Can you all mark this thread as a faq candidate, please?
But I'm enjoying the point/counter points, for sure.We ran into something similar when a Druid/Wizard in our group stacks all of her buffs and can go crazy. And while Surthainn is definitely right that it only lasts 8ish minutes, that is 48 rounds of combat, which is essentially several sessions worth of conflict.
We are running Wrath of the Righteous, and they'll be gaining their first Mythic tier soon, so this problem may actually only be beginning. Although it still doesn't seem right to me that a level 8 character should be so strong, rather than ban things I tend to just attack them with versions of themselves. If this setup really is that powerful, I'll just attack the group with ten of them and let hilarity ensue.
Good to know,
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Does the barbarian have claws all the time? Because I thought that you couldn't qualify for feats such as Imp. Nat. Attack or Eldritch Claws unless you always had the proper attack.
Also, you might want to have the group level a bit slower.
Oh yes, we are running Wrath parallel with Rise of the Rune Lords. The group has already finished part 1 of RotRL before beginning the World Wound Incursion. So I'm just bumping up the encounters to the appropriate CR as we go along. And yes, he has claws as a Bloodrager ability from the Abyssal bloodline.
And yes, he has claws as a Bloodrager ability from the Abyssal bloodline.Ah, sorry. Thought it was like Beast Totem where they grew when he raged.
That's exactly how it works. The BR's Bloodline powers are only active while bloodraging. No rage, no claws. Thematically it's a fine fit, but if the DM is actively looking for an out to this combo that'd be the place to start.
There are other problems: as others have said, Aspect of the Gorilla doesn't apply to natural attacks without Feral Combat Training. Even with FCT, AotG should use the unarmed strike damage track (based on level), not the weapon damage chart (based on size). And since the player isn't actually becoming Gargantuan or Colossal, I wouldn't apply Strong Jaw's doubling clause, but rather stick to the tables.
Finally:
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
You might interpret this to mean that Demonic Bulk (which acts as Enlarge Person) and Strong Jaw do not stack with each other for the purpose of increasing weapon damage.
Adding Demonic Bulk, Improved Natural Attack, and Strong Jaw together increases weapon damage by four effective size categories. Claws go 1d8, 2d6, ???*, 4d6, 6d6. That's way off the unarmed strike chart, but the pattern is clear enough: Xd6, Xd8, Xd10, (X+1)d6, etc. 6d6 becomes 6d8, which is basically the same as 8d6. With Strong Jaw overriding Demonic Bulk, the damage per claw is only 4d8.
Edit: Animal Aspect is a spell (kept thinking of it as a feat), so it should not stack with Strong Jaw. The best this combo can hit is 6d6. If you don't let Demonic Bulk and Strong Jaw stack either, it stops at 4d6.
*Improved Natural Attack table conflicts with the Universal Monster Rules table on what comes between 2d6 and 4d6. INA says 3d6, UMR says 2d8.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Aspect of the Gorilla doesn't apply to natural attacks without Feral Combat Training. Even with FCT, AotG should use the unarmed strike damage track (based on level), not the weapon damage chart (based on size). And since the player isn't actually becoming Gargantuan or Colossal, I wouldn't apply Strong Jaw's doubling clause, but rather stick to the tables.
Animal Aspect is a polymorph spell and size increasing spells don't function ... enlarge person & animal aspect don't stack.
To summarize:
Aspect of the Gorilla: Can't use with Enlarge Person (Demonic Bulk); Can't use without Weapon Focus/Feral Combat Training; Doesn't increase Natural Weapons but the Unarmed Strike from 1d3 to 1d4.Net Moving is 1d8 (base) + 1 size (INA) + 1 size (Demonic Bulk) + 2 size (Strong Jaw) = 6d6
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Animal Aspect is a polymorph spell and size increasing spells don't function while you're under the influence of a polymorph spell.
Thus enlarge person & animal aspect don't stack.
Ah, well remembered! Size increases don't affect you whilst under a polymorph spell indeed, the actual text is hidden away under the transmutation school.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
However, Strongjaw and Enlarge *would* stack, one actually increases your size (Enlarge) but the other (Strongjaw) simply treats you as *if* your size had increased, no actual size increase takes place so the spell effects will stack RAW.
Further, Strong Jaw says the creature is treated as two sizes larger than it actually is, and improved natural attack states that you're treated as one size larger than you actually are. Thus they don't stack either.
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, it applies to a different natural attack.
That means Improved Natural Attack and Strong Jaw do in fact not stack, RAW. I'd probably houserule it for a companion, but not for a giant Orcish wrecking ball participating in a playtest!
Enlarge Person (Demon Bulk) is a Polymorph effect, but Aspect is a general Transmutation effect, so I would rule they stack. Enlarge and Strong Jaw definitely stack, since one makes you bigger, the other makes it 'like' you are bigger. Strong Jaw and Aspect are both general Transmutation effects, but I'm not aware of any rule that says you can't be under the effect of any two spells of the same school, otherwise buffing kind of goes out the window.
So assuming he takes all the proper feats, it seems to me you'd end up with: Claws 1d8 Base --> 2d6 Demonic Bulk --> 2d8 Aspect --> 4d8 Strong Jaw (Not clear on that one).
Bite: 1d4 Base (Toothy trait)--> 1d6 Demonic Bulk --> 2d6 Strong Jaw
Don't forget that some spells and other abilities that increase damage dice specifically stop at "colossal"
Back to the topic, here's the list I use:
Damage -> Larger
1d2 -> 1d3 (as per table from the Equipment section)
1d3 -> 1d4
1d4 -> 1d6
1d6 -> 1d8
1d8 -> 2d6
1d10 -> 2d8
1d12 -> 3d6
2d4 -> 2d6
2d6 -> 3d6
2d8 -> 3d8
2d10 -> 4d83d6 -> 4d6 (as per the INA feat description)
4d6 -> 6d6
6d6 -> 8d6
8d6 -> 12d6
3d8 -> 4d8
4d8 -> 6d8
6d8 -> 8d8
8d8 -> 12d812d6 -> 16d6 (as per closest formula: 2x6d6 -> 2x8d6)
16d6 -> 24d6 (2x8d6 -> 2x12d6)
24d6 -> 32d6 (2x12d6 -> 2x16d6)
32d6 -> 48d6 (2x16d6 -> 2x24d6)
12d8 -> 16d8 (same)
16d8 -> 24d8
24d8 -> 32d8
32d8 -> 48d8
Etc.** spoiler omitted **
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Enlarge Person (Demon Bulk) is a Polymorph effect, but Aspect is a general Transmutation effect, so I would rule they stack.
Animal Aspect (Transmutation) (Polymorph)
Enlarge (Transmutation)In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Aspect is the Polymorph spell, any other size changing spells are specifically called out as not working on someone under the effect of a polymorph spell, seems pretty clear that the two can't be stacked.
Well, once again, Enlarge Person--or Demon's Bulk for our purposes--increases your size category. The flavor text of Aspect says your arms get longer, but it does *not* increase your size category...not the same thing. The rule about "other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell" would require this to be a size changing spell, and it's not.
That would be like saying you can't cast Keen Edge and Lead Blades on the same weapon, since they are both affecting it's relative offensive capability, but you can. But by the same line of reasoning, you can't benefit from Keen and Improved Critical since the effect is the same, even though one is a spell and one is a feat.
Enlarge person wouldn't stack with Demon's Bulk, or Righteous Might, but, again, Aspect would. And Strongjaw would, too, for that matter.
However, a person *couldn't* Wildshape or PaO and cast Aspect, since those are both Polymorph effects, and would in fact not stack.
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I'd like that to the case but, certainly for PFS and probably for a lot of GMs I can see the RAW backing up the two not stacking. Whilst the *presumption* (and a sensible one) is that it's to stop two size changing spells from stacking it literally just says that any other spells which change your size have no effect whilst under the effect of a polymorph spell, NOT 'whilst under the effects of a polymorph spell which changes your size' or anything similar, just whilst under the effects of ANY polymorph subschool spell. Regardless of the fact Animal Aspect itself doesn't change the size it IS a polymorph spell, which makes you ineligible for Enlarge to benefit you RAW.
I'd like that to the case but, certainly for PFS and probably for a lot of GMs I can see the RAW backing up the two not stacking. Whilst the *presumption* (and a sensible one) is that it's to stop two size changing spells from stacking it literally just says that any other spells which change your size have no effect whilst under the effect of a polymorph spell, NOT 'whilst under the effects of a polymorph spell which changes your size' or anything similar, just whilst under the effects of ANY polymorph subschool spell. Regardless of the fact Animal Aspect itself doesn't change the size it IS a polymorph spell, which makes you ineligible for Enlarge to benefit you RAW.
Hmmm...you make a compelling argument.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not in love with the idea of level 8 characters that hit harder than dragons, but with the glowing exception of the Leadership feat, I try not to ban rules-legal things just because they make my life as DM a bit harder. Still, I'm definitely starting to see it from your point of view, which I guess knocks the max damage down from 4d8 on a claw attack to 3d8.
INA and Strong Jaw don't stack.
For the exact same reason Lead Blades and Impact don't stack.
Lead Blades and Impact don't stack because they are the same magic the make mention to the build.
Weapon Special Ability, Impact: Does this stack with the lead blades spell?No. The weapon special ability and the spell are similar effects; note that impact lists lead blades as a construction requirement.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 08/02/13
Also they don't say anything about feats.
What this says to me is 2 druid's can't cast strong jaw on the same creature.
And most of the bonus(Size,Moral,Enhance,ect..) discussed here are untyped.
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Greetings all,
I have question about Improved Natural Attack and how it stacks with other size affecting things. One of my players is running a Bloodrager for the playtest with the Abyssal Bloodline, which gives him claws that do 1d8 at level 7. He has Aspect of the Gorilla, Demonic Bulk (essentially enlarge person) and a party druid who can cast Strong Jaw on him. The debate is how those effects interact.
Demonic Bulk expressly makes you larger, Strong Jaw and Aspect of the Gorilla do not (although the flavor text says your arms get longer, you do not increase a size category). Pending how you look at this, it can get out of hand quickly.
The issue is whether or not these effects move you along the Improved Natural Attack damage progression, or the Strong Jaw damage progression:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
I'm not sure how the damage would scale, that's always tricky to me.
However, Aspect of the Gorilla would be overridden by Strong Jaw. You can only have 1 size enhancement and 1 weapon dice enhancement active at a time and the better one of each always takes the priority.
Animal Aspect Gorilla: "Your unarmed damage die type increases by one step, and you gain a +4 competence bonus on combat maneuver checks when making the grapple or reposition combat maneuver." - Note it says Unarmed damage and not Natural attacks. That alone kind of ruins it for the player. I think a Monk's IUS is the only thing that counts for both Unarmed AND Natural - To my knowledge.
Strong Jaw: "Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is." - It jumps your damage category of natural weapons up 2 sizes - Much like Lead Blades would for a certain Sword or whatever.
Also, keep in mind no two Polymorph/Transmutations stack anyways.
At most, your player could have Enlargement and Strong Jaw or Animal Aspect Gorilla. Now if you were to mix in Alchemist... I think their potions would mix with everything and make him even bigger/stronger.
Edit: Also, if you search through the FAQs page at http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn (and clicking down the other menu on the side to go from advanced players guide to the other books)on Druid related things, you'll find plenty of official responses and examples in regards to your questions.