Goblin Squad Member
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I'm the kind of gamer that likes to get off the road and admire the scenery by crawling all over it. Prince of Persia and Shadows of the Colossus are among my favorites for that reason.
I realize that level of detail isn't feasible in an MMO as these kinds of features require all kinds of additional animations and physics (compounded by each additional type of character model, etc) but I would love to see a little more interaction between player and environment than I usually encounter in an online game. The only MMO that comes to mind where climbing is fully supported is DCU, although that is more Spiderman-style.
Even little things such as being able to actually climb specific elements like ladders or designated walls or vines would be awesome. Normally when I encounter a ladder in an MMO it's usually just decoration or something I click on to magically appear at the top or bottom. In a game where we can expect to see a lot of forts and walls and sieges I wouldn't mind something a little different.
TSW had climbable ladders and Age of Conan had both ladders and vines. They were however set in place and you couldn't move them around
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Goblin Squad Member
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GW2 has a lot of "jumping puzzles" built into the game which require you to explore all over the terrain but sadly there is no actual climbing in that game.
I too am a fan of climbing and interacting. I think DDO has some enjoyable aspects of that as well, especially their dungeons.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Climbing and jumping? Pretty please yes.
Should climbing and jumping be trainable skills, with armor penalties etc? maybe not.
conceptually I'd love that, but there are some alarm bells. Having rogues scale the settlement walls in a siege is awesome. Having everyone scale the walls (since climbing would become a required 'siege skill') is not good. Dungeons 'jumping puzzles' and treetop archery sounds awesome, but could make jumping a 'required' skill. Jump puzzles would anyway have to be handcrafted and designed for specific jumping skills.
maybe.. make climb and jump slottable passive feats with armor and encumbrance penalties?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having everyone scale the walls (since climbing would become a required 'siege skill') is not good. Dungeons 'jumping puzzles' and treetop archery sounds awesome, but could make jumping a 'required' skill.
Being able to damage an opponent sounds awesome, but doesn't that make combat a required skill?
Seriously, while having some of these skills would be nice for everyone, training them is not a required skill even in the examples you provided.
Climbing let's you easily go up a cliff face, but it's no so easy to climb a wall that is smooth with no handholds. There is a reason that siege walls were tall, didn't have hand holds and footholds, and had places at the top to drop thing on people who were climbing.
Jumping puzzles can be overcome by having the character ho circumvented them throw a rope to help the non-jumpers across.
Not to mention that both abilities are made obsolete by a fly, floating disc, or levitate spell.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Idk, this sounds like a nightmare to develop.
I am a fan of wider interaction of avatars + environments.
But it needs to be abstracted in a form that fits the wider game design itself.
To negate jumping puzzles, this is I think expensive Themepark stuff to design? It's also a mini game?
So to convert it to a meaningful interaction, generic terrain that affords the opportunity to "dig-in" for say an ambush. That could be archers finding large rock or sloping scree or jump onto a tree below which looks over a narrow path in a ravine. That affords perhaps further range and defence to get to. Positioning in such a combat therefore confers an advantage that immerses te environment into the players reckoning.
Again separate climbing animation could be a hassle and bugs getting stuck in terrain. I think again if the devs generically make the terrain then craft areas for the above for players establish positional advantages in anticipation of combat that "wait & ambush" advantage of "setting-up"'would be appropriate for everyone and include everyone and not require additional feature creep.
Perhaps this suggestion is a cop-out, however?
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Goblin Squad Member
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AvenaOats,
I think along the same tracks here. A good, fun & meaningful system for navigating difficult terrain, such as jumping, is probably very difficult to get right (or why don't other MMOs have it?).
I started thinking about flight since Imbicatus mentioned it. In order not to be able to use it for weird exploits, bypassing terrain etc., I think it should be very limited if implemented at all. Maybe a rather short buff that levitates your character off the ground beyond melee reach but won't let you move around? As an 'oh s%¤t' defense ability against melee combatants? But it must be rather short duration or else it would be game breaking (solo dangerous melee-only mobs from above). A 'blink' ability (teleport/fly to location in your sight) might be possible too if it has rather long cooldown (but we're not going to have cooldowns, are we?)
I would very much like it if climbing and flight turns out to be possible, fun and meaningful. If someone can convince me how it would work I'd love to hear it (no sarcasm)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Flight is easily countered by ranged attacks. There isn't a lot of cover in the sky. Conversely, if an abjurer like Nihimon were to cast something like protection from arrows in addition to flight and then rain death from above, the increased tree cover in PFO compared to other games should make it easy to break line of sight and negate his ability to target you.
Not to mention a dispel magic being cast by an allied wizard or cleric will ruin any fliers day.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm so limited altitude and flight speed, could be virtually invulnerable against certain enemies but that's ok since we run stone-paper-scissors and you shouldn't be out on your own anyway.
But it might still circumvent terrain, get you to areas you shouldn't be able to etc. Possible to avoid by planning the landscape with flight in mind, coding and so on but lots of work and hassle and potential for problems. Also, could be seriously OP in some PvE situations. Solo farm extremely dangerous melee-only monsters for their rare loot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think devs said in a FAQ blog flight might never make it. Though proxy flight would work or "chicken flight" / weight of a feather ; feather flight could compromise.
What I'm saying above is that terrain that allows jumping and positions to be useful in combat then it's not real jumping puzzles or climbing but it's effects are as enjoyable and possibly even more useful.
A smaller dug-in group being able to take on or hold-up a larger group would be a result for instance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Man, I didn't even think about climbing trees for sniping. I guess I'd have to get a better feel for PFO's terrain to know if that's possible.
While I enjoy flight immensely in my superhero MMO's I'm not sure how it would be effectively balanced in a PFO style game, which makes me leery about it. Perhaps if it were more of a transportation power and less of a floating-gunship I could get behind that.
I think with jumping and climbing I'd like to see it as either a trainable skill or a slotted ability. There should definitely be some difference between how monk/rogue types get around and how the heavily-armored characters move.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm, good thoughts Salazaar Slaan.
Skill-training a longer/higher jump would be good maybe? That "opens up" more terrain as possible vantage points.
I feel guilty for jumping back on my favourite hobby-horse but the possible Druid "warg/mind-transfer" ability to guide a bird would be a proxy genuine flight just avoiding the issue of flight bypassing travel / trivialising content ie economic repercussions. *_^
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Goblin Squad Member
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but could make jumping a 'required' skill.
Being able to damage an opponent sounds awesome, but doesn't that make combat a required skill?
1) I firmly believe every player in PFO will have a character with combat skills!
However, there will also be a large number of different ways to damage your opponents (and defending yourself). If one combat skill turns out to be superior to all others, that would be bad.If climbing skill gives a huge additional advantage in siege it becomes a 'required' skill for those aiming to win sieges. (And I'd prefer the 'required' skill for sieges to be siege engineering).
2) It is a valid point that if there are enough "required" skills (say: perception, stealth, jumping, climbing, swimming, riding, UMD and spellcraft) then it is a very meaningful choice again.
However, I'm not worried about the "first vertical progression" (to borrow a term from TSW), but about the point where the first players have reached their highest tier abilities.
Training a second role should not make you flat out stronger, just give access to more options - training specific skills should do the same. From the stealth debate, it seems that maxing stealth does not make you max stealth unless you also slot the right passives. Hence my suggestion that climb/jump also should work as slottable feats.
3) Your assumptions of ropes, fly spells etc as so far unfounded assumptions. I'd love the rope. Fly spells however require careful consideration.
4) If a city wall is so hard to climb that you need to slot 30% of your abilities for climbing, then it's balanced.
If the wall can be scaled by anyone who spent enough xp on it, it's not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I could see having to train climbing with xp, slotting climbing ability and slotting climbing gear. That to me sounds balanced.
I'm hoping that almost every structure or land feature could be climbed, with the appropriate skill level and the proper gear. Some structures could even require very high quality gear.
Climbing various features could be a part of exploration achievements. This could also be the way to discover some of the rarest resources in the game.
Climbing mountains should be dangerous and very time consuming. Imagine how unique it would be for an MMO to have a system where mining a mountain would take 3 hours of real time to achieve.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ascending (& equally important Descending) Mountains deducting/reducing movement rate would be very welcome in my book to make the z-axis movement increase the travel time along the x & y axis.
This could make the map far more interesting as could roads but in the opposite direction and limited use. Rivers for bulk transport etc
But yes Mountains would expand the map without adding more hexes as it were.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But yes Mountains would expand the map without adding more hexes as it were.Depths would as well, spelunking would be equally interesting and unique if implemented.
Completely agree. Nice way of switching "zones" and the immersion being totally acceptable.
I think dungeons when they roll out will be hot-spots of different adventure groups brawling in these after precious materials.
Then possibly larger underways/spelunking in earnest.
Eventually-eventually, full-blown dwarven-settlements and lands/underways potentially.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Man, I didn't even think about climbing trees for sniping....
Normally one would never climb a tree to snipe unless on a suicide mission, as once detected, the sniper is toast. No place to run but up with pursuers on the ground. Might be feasible with unlimited resurrections though.
While I enjoy flight immensely in my superhero MMO's I'm not sure how it would be effectively balanced in a PFO style game, which makes me leery about it.
I am voting against flight, even as a taxi service. Too many things already that shrink the world. I hope the world is big, and stays big.
I think with jumping and climbing I'd like to see it as either a trainable skill or a slotted ability. There should definitely be some difference between how monk/rogue types get around and how the heavily-armored characters move.
Agreed. All the separate acrobatic type skills should be trainable (rope climbing, wall climbing, rock climbing, rappelling, balancing or tight rope walking, pole vaulting, etc...). Doing any of those in metal armor should not happen at all, and only the lightest of leather or cloth armors would make going up and down walls possible at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think with jumping and climbing I'd like to see it as either a trainable skill or a slotted ability. There should definitely be some difference between how monk/rogue types get around and how the heavily-armored characters move.Agreed. All the separate acrobatic type skills should be trainable (rope climbing, wall climbing, rock climbing, rappelling, balancing or tight rope walking, pole vaulting, etc...). Doing any of those in metal armor should not happen at all, and only the lightest of leather or cloth armors would make going up and down walls possible at all.
I'm sick of the myth that you can't move gracefully in armor. Armor strapping makes it move as part of your body. If you look at the movements you need to make to be able to effectively wield a melee weapon, you have to be able to move fluidly. Strapping on armor doesn't turn you into a robot.
Here is a video of a guy wearing Full Armor doing calisthenics. He can do pushups, jumping jacks, and squat thrusts.
Armor should make it harder to hide, because it it shiny and a little loud. Be the weight is balanced, and when strapped properly,it does not impact your ability to climb or jump.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Armor should make it harder to hide, because it it shiny and a little loud. Be the weight is balanced, and when strapped properly,it does not impact your ability to climb or jump.
I would argue otherwise, because of the extra weight. It doesn't make those things impossible, just more difficult. Jumping is a force vs. mass problem, and the armor increases mass. Short bits of climbing may or may not be impacted based on the wearer's strength, but lengthy climbing becomes about endurance and that extra weight drains it faster.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Climbing in no or light armor is probably also easier, if only because the purchase of flesh is better than leather is better than metal. Yes, you can shed boots and gauntlets when you're climbing an unknotted rope or wall, but that takes time and you now have an unarmored spot.
(Looking forward to the video of the guy going up a climbing wall in full armor. With the guy not in armor going up alongside for comparison.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't mean to sound cynical but, based on what Ryan Dancey said in the "In-Game Supports for Role Playing" thread, I think it is safe to say there will be no climbing unless it has a direct correlation to Settlement vs. Settlement conflict.
You don't think you are exaggerating the doom and gloom surrounding hopes of a more immersive world a little too much?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it is safe to say there will be no climbing unless it has a direct correlation to Settlement vs. Settlement conflict.
Settlements have walls, so there is definitely a need for climbing. Either for assaults with ladders, or with grapnels for infiltration. I won't hold out for the best animations - the most important thing is a character should be able to move from outside the wall to on top of the wall.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Armor should make it harder to hide, because it it shiny and a little loud. Be the weight is balanced, and when strapped properly,it does not impact your ability to climb or jump.
I seem to remember reading that Knights in Full Plate needed help to get on a horse. Sometimes even using a pulley system. I just can't see watching a fighter wearing Full Plate trying to climb a tree without laughing as he fails miserably.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't mean to sound cynical but, based on what Ryan Dancey said in the "In-Game Supports for Role Playing" thread, I think it is safe to say there will be no climbing unless it has a direct correlation to Settlement vs. Settlement conflict.You don't think you are exaggerating the doom and gloom surrounding hopes of a more immersive world a little too much?
Not at all. As a matter of fact, Ryan Dancey himself is well known for his "Gloom and Doom" predictions... Google it!
I personally hope that Ryan has less to do with the game's actual development than some of us might believe. I'm glad that these recent revelations are coming from him and not Tork or Stephen. I can at least take some solace in that the Devs are remaining silent on these issues.
PFO really does need to be a mix of PVP + PVE + RP, I'm sure that is what Paizo is looking for. How many Pathfinder TT players are going to stick around for "RP is all in your heads, be imaginative"?
How many of you signed on for a Settlement vs. Settlement War Simulator? Gosh, even I didn't do that, and I'm more pro PVP than just about anyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm sick of the myth that you can't move gracefully in armor. Armor strapping makes it move as part of your body.
Here is one where someone does a cartwheel if full plate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm sick of the myth that you can't move gracefully in armor. Armor strapping makes it move as part of your body.Here is one where someone does a cartwheel if full plate.
I often wonder if the armor shown in clips like that are authentic armor. Like those worn for real combat back in the days. Or cheap, modern day, knockoffs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I often wonder if the armor shown in clips like that are authentic armor. Like those worn for real combat back in the days. Or cheap, modern day, knockoffs.
I've been a SCA heavy fighter for 10 years. The armor being used are modern replicas of period designs. I've been to the Higgins Armory Museum and the only difference between the authentic suits and the reproductions that I would use in combat are that the reproductions tend to use thicker steel, and are heavier.
That said, there are people who fight in aluminum, titanium, leather, or even plastic armor instead of steel, but those are pretty easily identifiable by looking at them. I know a duke who had his arm broken from taking a hit while wearing titanium vambraces, he only wears steel now.
Yes steel armor is heavy. But armor designed for combat is designed to keep you mobile. If you were to remove the gauntlets and sabotons, you would actually be better off wearing a suit of armor than you would be wearing a backpack. The armor and backpack weight about the same, but is balanced on your body.
Yes there was specific jousting armor that was ridiculously heavy. Jousting armor is not combat armor, It's tournament armor designed to keep knights alive during the very deadly sport of falling off of a galloping horse because you got hit with a pointy stick moving very fast.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Armor should make it harder to hide, because it it shiny and a little loud. Be the weight is balanced, and when strapped properly,it does not impact your ability to climb or jump.I seem to remember reading that Knights in Full Plate needed help to get on a horse. Sometimes even using a pulley system. I just can't see watching a fighter wearing Full Plate trying to climb a tree without laughing as he fails miserably.
It may be of interest that my late stepfather, a Latvian descended from nobility, observed a man in full plate ascend a wall using only his hands on a ladder at a party in his grandfather's courtyard prior to WWII.
A well-fit suit of armor is much less an encumbrance that the common perception.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wearing heavy armor also makes you stronger and you do get used to it. That's why fighters get a bonus to armor penalties. And its designed for fighting, not every thing else. So while a fighter should be able to climb and swim in armor, it should still be hard. Or why would rogue and barbarian types wear leather armors ?
Imagine a heavy armored guy climbing a ladder, not terribly difficult. Now imagine him scaling a wall which would require stretching on tip toe or a small leap to catch a hand hold, extremely difficult in heavy armor. Heavy armor limits your movement in certain directions, and happens to weigh more. I know from experience, carrying 30 lbs of weight and moving on the ground and ladders <window installer for 3 years> is way different then climbing straight up with only 20 lbs <tower climber 10 years>. It is a completely different set of muscles. Also, climbing a ladder and a sheer surface are different muscles. I have worked from 45' to 300' in the air, climbing all sorts of things, and just in winter clothing <Carhartt bibs> makes it a lot harder.
My partner for tower climbing was the mule of the team, I was the agile one. In nothing but climbing harnesses, I could climb the sheer surfaces a lot easier than him. But he could pack 40 lbs of weight up those 100+ foot towers a lot easier than me. Armor does make a difference, even if society's view is way off.