Ok so I have done alot of threads today... Anyways it looks like my gm has settled with the campaign second darkness, 15 point buy, core races only. I want to be a huge damage dealer it is what I really love and the two-handed fighter has been great but I always die :( and I dont see a barbarian doing any better, so can I get some advice on making a huge damage dealer with a better chance of survival?
2h Half Orc Paladin.
Self heals, high AC, the 'I don't keel over when I drop to neg HP' racial, and smite evil.
Idk I have always been skeptical about the pally.
Fighter and barbarian are truly your best two-handed damage dealing builds, and both should really have betetr chances of surviving than just about anyone else. I would recommend a human barbarian with beast totem powers, and superstition and putting your favored class bonus into superstition. Beast totem will net you some natural armor. You will never have the AC of a fighter, but you should have a hit point pool to shrug it off. Are you characters dying in mid battle despite starting at full hp, or are you dying because you don't heal between battles?
If you're dying because you don't heal between battles then your party isn't playing together well. A wand of cure light woulds costs 750 gp, and heals 5 points of damage on average. It is the most cost efficient method of healing, and if you're not healing up to near full health then you're cheating yourself and that is why you're dying. If you dying despite startign a battle at full health then you need to review your tactics, and the lethality of the battles the DM is throwing against you. Are you charging headlong into a throng of enemies with no one else to support you? If so, then it is your recklessness that is getting you killed. If you use poor tactics on your part then no build will ever survive despite being optimized. Are you the only character ever going down? Is the DM solely targeting you?
There has to be more details you can provide so that we can get to the real root of the problem. The fighter and barbarian should be able to dish out more damage and take more punishment (in terms of HP damage) than just about any other classes in the game.
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Pally with lay of hands on self has huge survivability. Keep yourself alive while dishing out damage. TWF may not be the best bet, since you will be feat starved. Two handed weapon would probably work better. Take Power Attack, Furious Focus. That will be a good start. There is also a Feat for +2 to heal self but I don't think your DM will allow that, since it isn't core.
If you have a cleric or someone to heal you, go for for barbarian or fighter. Barb can deal huge Damage when raging. Plus if you put enough points in STR and DEX (16+2 & 14)you will be really good at tripping with a reach weapon if you like that, plenty of AoO with Combat Reflexes.
Paladins are very good in terms of survivability, but lackluster in the damage department (unless fighting something evil and the paladin uses his Smite). The problem I've often seen depending on the campaign is that many enemies aren't outright evil. Worse, many of the random encounters you have will be against beasts and animals that are just true neutral. While you'll still deal decent damage, you will always lag behind a fighter or paladin unless fighting something you can smite.
Then there are DMs that like to pick on paladins and alignment interactions...sometimes its just better to forgo the hassle depending your GM and group.
Honestly it could be me but I look at a barbarian or fighter as a tank I mean my group does help and my gm does not just target me the way he does it mainly is who ever hits the hardest becomes the targeted PC, but I do massive damage always its just more then 50% of the time ill be downed always till eventual I am just felt enough damage I die on the spot. So is there a barbarian build that has better ac or better DR?
I'd suggest trying a Dwarven Invulnerable Rager Barbarian, if you want to be extremely tanky. You'll end up with 13/- DR while raging at level 20 (if you max out Increased DR), and the Invulnerable Rager archetype allows you to double that (either to 23/- DR or 26/- DR, I'm not so sure with the wording) against nonlethal damage - which will help you make full use of the Flesh Wound Power, which seems awesome when stacked with that bonus.
Dwarves also get a straight up +2 saves vs. the most common sources of saving throws (spells, SLA's, and poison) - plus, their racial ability bonuses (CON and WIS) both boost your saves even further. If you don't mind not being spell-targetable during rage, you can use superstition to net yourself a total +9 saves vs. spells by level 20 - with a feat or two to shore up your weak spots, you'll be near untouchable by spells.
Your AC will be on the mediocre side (but an amulet of natural armor and magic armor will help a great deal with that) - but when you ignore a decent chunk out of every blow, can self heal and are almost untouchable by anything requiring a saving throw, who cares? Plus, being a barbarian negates the main penalty for being a dwarf - that movement speed hit.
Honestly it could be me but I look at a barbarian or fighter as a tank I mean my group does help and my gm does not just target me the way he does it mainly is who ever hits the hardest becomes the targeted PC, but I do massive damage always its just more then 50% of the time ill be downed always till eventual I am just felt enough damage I die on the spot. So is there a barbarian build that has better ac or better DR?
So, here is where your first mistake may be. A fighter or a barbarian can be a tank, if they're built that way. But a 2 handed weapon fighter or barbarian optimized for that will, not surprisingly, not be as good at "tanking" as a character built for it. If you want to build a tank, invest in a sword and board build. That shield and the extra AC it grants can be awesome. Heck, you can have you cake and eat it too actually. Pick-up a heavy spiked shield with the bashing property and all the shield use feats. Now you can wield the shield as a two-handed weapon and retain you shield bonus and you get to use your shield enhancement bonus as your weapon bonus.
Also, someone suggested Invulnerable Rager which provides a good bonus to DR if you don't mind losing Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Also, are you saying that you hit hard enough that the DM makes all the enemies attack you? And keeps attacking you until you die? If that is what is happening then the only solution for keeping your character alive would probably be to not deal the most damage.
Samurai is also worth looking at for a resilient 2H martial.
Honestly it could be me but I look at a barbarian or fighter as a tank I mean my group does help and my gm does not just target me the way he does it mainly is who ever hits the hardest becomes the targeted PC, but I do massive damage always its just more then 50% of the time ill be downed always till eventual I am just felt enough damage I die on the spot. So is there a barbarian build that has better ac or better DR?So, here is where your first mistake may be. A fighter or a barbarian can be a tank, if they're built that way. But a 2 handed weapon fighter or barbarian optimized for that will, not surprisingly, not be as good at "tanking" as a character built for it. If you want to build a tank, invest in a sword and board build. That shield and the extra AC it grants can be awesome. Heck, you can have you cake and eat it too actually. Pick-up a heavy spiked shield with the bashing property and all the shield use feats. Now you can wield the shield as a two-handed weapon and retain you shield bonus and you get to use your shield enhancement bonus as your weapon bonus.
Also, someone suggested Invulnerable Rager which provides a good bonus to DR if you don't mind losing Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Also, are you saying that you hit hard enough that the DM makes all the enemies attack you? And keeps attacking you until you die? If that is what is happening then the only solution for keeping your character alive would probably be to not deal the most damage.
I don't know I think that 2 handed weapon is neasary for a tank. If you aren't dealing damage then the enemies ignore you.
I don't know I think that 2 handed weapon is neasary for a tank. If you aren't dealing damage then the enemies ignore you.
I could go into a long diatribe about how the word tank should be erraticated from our vocabulary when referring to pen and paper rpgs. There is no threat system. You cannot force enemies to attack you. A GM can be just as justified in attacking everyone else who isn't dealing the most damage rather than focusing on the guy dealing the most damage. It's as reasonable for everyone to be afraid to fight the guy who just chopped Tommy Two Fingers in half and not want to fight him as it is for everyone to focus on that same guy. It really depends on how the GM decides to run the battle.
One of the most effective builds at "tanking" is the guy who is enlarged with a reach weapon that can trip you before you make it to the softer squishy characters. But, this build also has its weaknesses. Every build has weaknesses. Every build has strengths. You have to build characters to work with everyones strengths and cover weaknesses. If his character is dying every combat even when starting at full hp then something is happen during combat that is probably outside of his actions or character build alone.
well if I went sword and board wouldn't it be better to go ranger?
Honestly it could be me but I look at a barbarian or fighter as a tank I mean my group does help and my gm does not just target me the way he does it mainly is who ever hits the hardest becomes the targeted PC, but I do massive damage always its just more then 50% of the time ill be downed always till eventual I am just felt enough damage I die on the spot. So is there a barbarian build that has better ac or better DR?So, here is where your first mistake may be. A fighter or a barbarian can be a tank, if they're built that way. But a 2 handed weapon fighter or barbarian optimized for that will, not surprisingly, not be as good at "tanking" as a character built for it. If you want to build a tank, invest in a sword and board build. That shield and the extra AC it grants can be awesome. Heck, you can have you cake and eat it too actually. Pick-up a heavy spiked shield with the bashing property and all the shield use feats. Now you can wield the shield as a two-handed weapon and retain you shield bonus and you get to use your shield enhancement bonus as your weapon bonus.
Also, someone suggested Invulnerable Rager which provides a good bonus to DR if you don't mind losing Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Also, are you saying that you hit hard enough that the DM makes all the enemies attack you? And keeps attacking you until you die? If that is what is happening then the only solution for keeping your character alive would probably be to not deal the most damage.
Ok well here is the question is it possible to have good ac and still do massive damage?
I don't know I think that 2 handed weapon is neasary for a tank. If you aren't dealing damage then the enemies ignore you.I could go into a long diatribe about how the word tank should be erraticated from our vocabulary when referring to pen and paper rpgs. There is no threat system. You cannot force enemies to attack you. A GM can be just as justified in attacking everyone else who isn't dealing the most damage rather than focusing on the guy dealing the most damage. It's as reasonable for everyone to be afraid to fight the guy who just chopped Tommy Two Fingers in half and not want to fight him as it is for everyone to focus on that same guy. It really depends on how the GM decides to run the battle.
One of the most effective builds at "tanking" is the guy who is enlarged with a reach weapon that can trip you before you make it to the softer squishy characters. But, this build also has its weaknesses. Every build has weaknesses. Every build has strengths. You have to build characters to work with everyones strengths and cover weaknesses. If his character is dying every combat even when starting at full hp then something is happen during combat that is probably outside of his actions or character build alone.
Well you have to make your attacks of opportunity powerful enough for enemies to FEAR.
Well, with standard WBL, and an unoptimized 15 PB, you could have 21 AC with a two handed weapon (using Celestial Chainmail) - give or take a few extra points of AC if you pick up small things like natural armor amulets, etc. You'll also have 7/- DR at that point as an Invulnerable Rager. Picking up Dodge will up that to 22.
Bare in mind you take a -2 AC hit when you rage - but picking up Beast Totem and Guarded Stance as rage powers will not only negate that, but push your AC up even higher, since each rage power's AC bonus scales up as you level (at level 10, it'd give a net total of +2 AC while raged).
So, to recap, as a barbarian, you could have a semi-meh 24 AC while unbuffed and enraged, ontop of 7/- DR (14/- DR vs. nonlethal damage), and huge bonuses to your saves. You'll be marginally behind a fighter in terms of AB (there's no real way to catch up, really, since Fighters get Weapon Expertise and a ton of fighter exclusive feats) but the huge stat gains you'll receive upon entering rage will allow you to still dish out tons of damage.
Of course, if your local spellcasters are being pals and buffing you instead of just throwing fireballs around, you'll be even more of a dwarven deathmachine.
EDIT: Wrote this in a hurry, sorry, gave the wrong DR. Edited with the appropriate values.
well if I went sword and board wouldn't it be better to go ranger?
No, not really. If you want to two weapon fight, or want to use a bow then a Ranger is great. Ranger will let you ignore the prerequisite dexterity requirements for TWF, but honestly TWF usually comes out less damage than a dedicated two hand fighter (especially because you must often move into attack position and lose a full atatck). A fighter gets lots of feats though, and can use a shield two handed to atatck with (as anyone can) and pickup all the shield feats with his multitude of feats. So, he can get extra defense and offense however....
Ok well here is the question is it possible to have good ac and still do massive damage?
The real problem is that its not just about AC. Having a high enough AC to avoid soem damage, without having such a high AC that the enemy ignores you because they can't hit you is a problem unto its own. And then there is a matter of saving throws. The problem is multifacteted.
In my opinion once you reach higher levels having a big HP pool and high saves is better than having a big HP pool and a high AC. AC will protect your hp from normal attacks, but it doesn't help against fireball or mind controling spells.
The most effective melee character I have ever built is a human barbarian. Greater beast totem at level 10 will allow you to you pounce on a charge. Granting you the ever important ability to make a full attack when you have to move. That ability alone puts the barbarian class far above most other melee builds simply because its the weakest single point for every melee character. Beyond that barbarians get Superstiton. Which can seem like a hassle with having to resist your allies spells, but this can be mitigated. All you need is the Cord of Stubborn resolve and you can rage cycle in and out during combat. This means you can get a buff with a little planning on your and the spellcasters part. Now, why is Superstition so good? At level 20 it's a +7 bonus on all saves against all spells, spell like, and supernatural abilities. Now, if you're a human and use your favored class bonus it gets even better. You can grab another +6 to your Supersition bonus over 20 levels with it. And its a morale bonus. That furious courageous weapon you wield will increase the bonus by half the enchantment amount. So you can safely get a +15 to all your saves that matter. Whats that Mr. Paladin? Who needs Divine Grace? Not me! To take it even further you can pick up Eater of Magic. Manage to actually fail a save because you rolled a 1? NOT ANYMORE! You get to reroll that save for a spell, spell like or supernatural ability. And if you succeed you're not effected. You know those spells that are save for half damage? Or save and still have some minor affect? You want to fail, because Eater of Magic just lets you completely ignore it.
Now, you should have a big con score and big strength from rage and with that d12 hit die you should be sitting pretty for HP unless you're rolling crap each level. What do you need to deal big damage? Your strength score, power attack, and a nodachi is pretty much all thats required. Pick up improved critical and watch as your static damage multiplier pushes your DPR to great levels.
As for AC, you're going to get hit. Have someone prepared to heal you up after battle. You'll have natural armor from beast totem and it stacks with an amulet of natural armor. But you're limited to medium armor (you did make it mithril so it doesn't reduce you speed right?) but you need a big enough dex to take full advantage of that, which is going to be hard with a 15 point buy until you hit high levels.
Ultimately you need to make a well rounded character. There is more to the game than just AC.
However, I guess whats bothering me more than anything is I just don't understand the circumstances under which your character is getting killed.
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Ok so I have done alot of threads today... Anyways it looks like my gm has settled with the campaign second darkness, 15 point buy, core races only. I want to be a huge damage dealer it is what I really love and the two-handed fighter has been great but I always dieWell, that should be the tip-off that DPR guides are a generally better as math calculations than they are at designing durable characters.2h Half Orc Paladin.
Self heals, high AC, the 'I don't keel over when I drop to neg HP' racial, and smite evil.
Agreed; it's time for the OP to try something a little different. (Also, in a 15pt po'-boy campaign, having a sidekick represents a relatively larger scale up in power than it does in an epic game.)
(Tip: use that half-orc's racial ability to perform a withdraw action, not do something stupid.)
Half-orc:
STR:14
DEX:12 ...15,14,13,12,12,07 15pt array
CON:12
INT:13 (bump 8th)
WIS:07
CHA+17 (all other bumps)Traits (if your GM allows them): Threatening Defender, Dangerously Curious
Feats (all CRB): 1.Combat Expertise, 3.Quick Draw, 5.Mounted Combat
Important skills: Intimidate, Ride, Use Magic Device, Sense Motive (8th, full ranks)
Other skills: anything else on pally list except Kn:royaltyWhat this build grants:
* exceptional staying power, enabling you to survive attrition fights
* doubling of power via mount (memorize Mounted Combat's item list)
* ability to "pinch heal" fallen allies without moving to their side
* gradually become a pretty good "Smite archer" despite lousy dexterity
* Quick Draw enables cycling lances, swords and bows efficiently
i would go for half orc barbarrian and get raging vitallity ASAP make sure you get as much con and STR as is possible even dropping stats down to 7 for it!
example:
str17
dex12
con16
wis10
int10
cha7
switch around but somthing like this should do.
Go for greater beast totem so you can pounce like a mad beast! and make sure to get raging vitality
dont worry for AC but make sure you get all the HP you can get!
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It's not terribly hard to have fairly high AC with massive damage.
Full Plate + 12 dex = 20 AC, which will be amazing for the level 2 you get it.
If you're having a death problem and want to do massive damage, do an Angelic Aasimar Oath of Vengence Paladin. In a campaign named "Second Darkness" their smite should be handy, and it's hard to out-damage a smiting Pally (and Vengence Pallies do it A LOT).
For 15 points:
S: 18
I: 7
W: 7
D: 13
C: 14
Ch: 16
Usual power attack feat chains and such. @ 4 get a Charisma amulet and you have 6 smites a day (and smite adds to AC too).
