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I am really surprised that there wasn't a cleric/wizard hybrid class. I think that this is definitely needs a good hybrid version because the multiclassing route doesn't work well. Mystic Theurge requires a multiple levels of weakness at the beginning before it starts to pay off.
Does anyone have ideas on how a hybrid version could work?
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I am really surprised that there wasn't a cleric/wizard hybrid class. I think that this is definitely needs a good hybrid version because the multiclassing route doesn't work well. Mystic Theurge requires a multiple levels of weakness at the beginning before it starts to pay off.
Does anyone have ideas on how a hybrid version could work?
Oh, I definitely do!!! But it will be about a month or so until everyone can see it :)
How was that for cryptic? ;)
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MCArchetypes has one called the Sacred Thaumaturge.
Hopefully if it was designed in an "official" basis, we'd get something like this.
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I am really surprised that there wasn't a cleric/wizard hybrid class. I think that this is definitely needs a good hybrid version because the multiclassing route doesn't work well. Mystic Theurge requires a multiple levels of weakness at the beginning before it starts to pay off.
Does anyone have ideas on how a hybrid version could work?
Yes, it's called Witch.
You have dominate person, heal, black testicles, raise dead, scrying, teleport and plane shift. There, all the most important features of Wizard and Cleric in one full casting class.
Shaman of Anything except Lore. Then just select Lore as your wandering spirit every day. This gives you Cha modifier arcane spells to add to your list of preparable spells. Using it this way lets you swap em out every day as needed. If you go primary Shaman of Lore they'd be semistatic unless you level.
Wandering Spirit. Shaman class ability. Using it, select Lore Spirit.
I'm not sure if that answers your question? What are you asking?
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Plus, Rogue Genius' Magister Class does this very well.
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I am really surprised that there wasn't a cleric/wizard hybrid class. I think that this is definitely needs a good hybrid version because the multiclassing route doesn't work well. Mystic Theurge requires a multiple levels of weakness at the beginning before it starts to pay off.
Does anyone have ideas on how a hybrid version could work?
Yes, it's called Witch.
You have dominate person, heal, black testicles, raise dead, scrying, teleport and plane shift. There, all the most important features of Wizard and Cleric in one full casting class.
Black Testicles? Is that some sort of Necromancer's STD?
:)
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If we do someday get a wizard/cleric class then they need to call it a Sage.
I am really surprised that there wasn't a cleric/wizard hybrid class. I think that this is definitely needs a good hybrid version because the multiclassing route doesn't work well. Mystic Theurge requires a multiple levels of weakness at the beginning before it starts to pay off.
Does anyone have ideas on how a hybrid version could work?
Yes, it's called Witch.
You have dominate person, heal, black testicles, raise dead, scrying, teleport and plane shift. There, all the most important features of Wizard and Cleric in one full casting class.
Black Testicles? Is that some sort of Necromancer's STD?
:)
That made me chuckle! Plus, your avatar is laughing boisterously too which makes it seem even more hilarious.
Black Testicles sounds like something a Cleric should heal...
Plus, Rogue Genius' Magister Class does this very well.
Yeah the Magister does a very good job of a Cleric/Wizard hybrid...maybe more Cleric/Sorcerer.
I probably would rule that it is a Hybrid now that the concept is floating around, just to prevent it Multiclassing in weird ways.
shaman as in an archtype of druid right? i don't remember seeing any abilities that give it the ability to summon wandering spiritWandering Spirit. Shaman class ability. Using it, select Lore Spirit.
I'm not sure if that answers your question? What are you asking?
Shaman is the new full class in the ACG. This is the Advanced Class Guide messageboard. I'm talking about one of the new classes.
It is a divine caster with full progression. At like, level 4 or so it gains a class feature called Wandering Spirit. This feature lets them select one of the class's Spirit options, and change it out for another each day when they prepare their spells.
One of the Spirit options is Lore, and one of the powers it has is that it allows the Shaman access to a number of Sorc/Wiz spells equal to their Charisma modifier.
End result? A divine caster that can have a number of arcane spells they can swap out every day as needed.
theres also things like the healing patron witch (for a healthy selection of arcane and divine spells), the razmiran/false priest (or whatever the exact name was, arcane as wizard, but more easily UMDs divine stuff, and generally laughs at component costs), and the elf ancient lorekeeper lore mystery oracle (cherry-picks a good amount of arcane as the bonus mystery spells and such).
slap EH(arcane) onto them--particularly the oracle, since it uses cha already--and you've got a wannabe mystic theurge to tide you over until the ACG book comes out next year, with its guidelines on how hybrids are constructed. then you could simply make your own.
.
though, off the top of my head, a wizard/cleric might go something like:
----------WARNING, TEXT DUMP AHEAD----------
D6 HD, 1/2 BAB, weak/weak/strong saves, casts from the cleric list off of cha (as stated by the devs over in the arcanist revision thread, it's the only stat that "bridges" the arcane and divine caster sides), 2+int skill points, simple weapons + deity favored weapon, light armor.
9th-level casting, sorcerer spells/day advancement, prepared caster via their spellbook-slash-arcane-bondmiliar-slash-holy-symbol.
1 - Spell Domain, Grimoire, Scribe Scroll, Channel Energy 1d6
2 -
3 -
4 - Channel Energy 2d6
5 - Spell Domain
6 -
7 -
8 - Channel Energy 3d6
9 -
10 - Spell Domain
11 -
12 - Channel Energy 4d6
13 -
14 -
15 - Spell Domain,
16 - Channel Energy 5d6
17 -
18 -
19 -
20 - Enlightened Domain, Channel Energy 6d6
Spell Domain - *assign schools of magic to the various deities in groups of 3*. choose a school of magic associated with your deity, spells of this school from the wizard/sorcerer list are added to your spell list (you must still add these spells to your grimoire normally). each time you gain this ability, choose another school associated with your deity other than one you have already chosen.
Enlightened Domain - choose a school of magic (regardless of its association with your deity). spells of this school from the wizard/sorcerer list are added to your spell list (you must still add these spells to your grimoire normally).
Grimoire - Both a theurge's spellbook and divine focus, the grimoire is a powerful tome filled with notes, rituals, and pages upon pages of both deific and arcane lore.
A theurge may use their Grimoire as a holy symbol of their faith.
A theurge must study their grimoire each day to prepare their spells. A theurge cannot prepare a spell that is not stored in their grimoire except for read magic, which all theurges can prepare from memory.
A theurge's grimoire begins play storing all of the 0-level cleric spells (including those added by their spell domain) plus three 1st level spells of the theurge’s choice. The theurge also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to their Charisma modifier to store in their grimoire. At each new theurge level, they add two new spells of any spell level or levels that they can cast (based on their new theurge level) to their grimoire. A theurge can also add additional spells to their grimoire as a wizard can.
If the grimoire is damaged, it is restored to full hit points the next time the theurge prepares their spells. If the grimoire is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 500 gp per theurge level. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete. A grimoire replaced in this way does not possess any of the additional spells of the previous grimoire that were added outside of those gained during level advancement. A theurge can designate an existing spellbook as their grimoire. This functions in the same way as replacing a lost or destroyed grimoire except that the grimoire retains its abilities while gaining the benefits and drawbacks of becoming a grimoire.
*long story short, their book is a sort of arcane-bond-slash-witch-familiar. make sure to keep that thing safe.*
This is just off the top of my head while sleep-deprived though, so it's likely wildly overpowered.
looking at it, it'd make a neat necromancer.
I’d piece it together something like below. This puts it roughly on par with a moderately early entry mystic theurge without all the added weirdness. And less spells per day, since those are wack with a MT.
Theurge
D6 HD, 1/2 BAB, weak/weak/strong saves, 2+ Int skills, Requires worship of god that grants access to Rune, Knowledge, or Magic domain.
Casts from the arcane spell list, int based casting, spell progression per day as sorc -2/day each level. (And wiz progression for 0 level per days) Spellcasting rules as per wizards plus requires DF as cleric would, prepares spells from spellbook.
Change spells added per level to book to: A theurge begins play with a spellbook containing all 0 level cantrips and all 0 level orisons. The theurge can prepare any combination of cantrips or orisons. These are cast as arcane spells. He also begins play with one spell selected from the cleric/oracle spell list, and 1+ int mod spells from the sorc/wiz list. Each time they gain a new theurge level, they add one cleric/oracle spell of their choice to their spellbook, and these spells prepared and cast as arcane versions.
Class features:
Divine Substantiation: Beginning at 4th level, a theurge can choose to cast his 1st level or lower spells as either divine or arcane. Every 2 levels thereafter, he can choose to cast the next higher spell level spells as either divine or arcane as well.
Divine Insights: At 5th level, choose either the Rune, Knowledge, or Magic domain (or an associated sub-domain) which your deity grants, you gain the 1st domain power using your theurge level and int for any relevant variables. At 12th level you gain the second listed power from this domain.
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I am really surprised that there wasn't a cleric/wizard hybrid class. I think that this is definitely needs a good hybrid version because the multiclassing route doesn't work well. Mystic Theurge requires a multiple levels of weakness at the beginning before it starts to pay off.
Does anyone have ideas on how a hybrid version could work?
Oh, I definitely do!!! But it will be about a month or so until everyone can see it :)
How was that for cryptic? ;)
Fyi, this is what I was being all cryptic about :)
The New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press was just officially announced today:)
New Paths Compendium includes:
- 28 new archetypes for monks, ninjas, gunslingers, barbarians, fighters, clerics, and 7 Compendium classes
- 7 tracking sheets for animal companions, favored enemies, prepared spells, summoned monsters and more
- 20 new spells for druids, rangers, shaman, and more
- Almost 100 new feats for new and existing classes
The seven Compendium classes each bring something new to your Pathfinder Roleplaying Game:
- The spell-less ranger, a skilled warrior of the wilderness
- The shaman, with otherworldly new abilities and an animal spirit guide
- The battle scion, a master of sword and spell
- The white necromancer, wielding death magic for the side of Good
- The elven archer, deadly ranged fighter capable of astonishing feats of marksmanship
- The savant, master of all trades (if only for an instant)
- The all-new theurge class, combining arcane and divine power!
You can check out the NPC's product page right here on Paizo.com as well:
New Paths Compendium
Sorry for the part relevant post / part thread jack!
Cleric/Wizard hybrid.
Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge hybrid.
Oracle/Sorcerer Hybrid.
Oracle/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge Hybrid.
Cleric/Oracle/Arcanist hybrid.
Cleric/Oracle/Arcanist/Mystic Theurge hybrid.
...
pretty sure hybrids are supposed to be just two classes together (the shaman's odd druid-cuckolding notwithstanding).
though an oracle/sorc and cleric/wizard would likely not need to take MT at all--i can definitely see folks using arcanist as an entry class into MT in the future though, since it's spellcasting method is tasty.
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If we do someday get a wizard/cleric class then they need to call it a Sage.
Ix-nay, I say. I was actually thinking about effective mage-priests back in the 3.0 era, and I came up with a little something called the Rabbi - equal parts holy man and scholar. Instead of Cantrips or Orisons, they would have "Mitzvahs."
I was thinking it would be part of a "Mesopotamian Adventures" expansion book (this would have been after 3.0 Oriental Adventures came out, but about the same time as or shortly before, Green Ronin published Testament) that also included things like the Wildman (Barbarian/Monk hybrid) and the Scribe (an Intelligence-based "Bard of the written word" - some credit is also due the contents of Ultimate Prestige Classes Vol. 1 by Andrew Melchor for that one).Another concept would be aligned with a different cultural setting - the "Brahmin," whose 0-level spells would be referred to as "Koans." If you already liked the Rabbi as a wizard-cleric, you could also make the Brahmin an effective combination priest/psionic.
The Aztec "Tlamacazqui" might also also fill this or a similar role well, and maybe make good use of some of the various "blood magic" mechanics out there.
pretty sure hybrids are supposed to be just two classes together (the shaman's odd druid-cuckolding notwithstanding).
though an oracle/sorc and cleric/wizard would likely not need to take MT at all--i can definitely see folks using arcanist as an entry class into MT in the future though, since it's spellcasting method is tasty.
There isn't any Cleric/Oracle hybrid (something a bit like the Arcanist), Mystic Theurge was added for its special ability.
... Something with both 10 levels of divine spells and 10 levels of arcane spells, might be broken. (Oracle/Sorcerer would answer the casting stat question/problem)
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Black Testicles? Is that some sort of Necromancer's STD? :)I am really surprised that there wasn't a cleric/wizard hybrid class. I think that this is definitely needs a good hybrid version because the multiclassing route doesn't work well. Mystic Theurge requires a multiple levels of weakness at the beginning before it starts to pay off.
Does anyone have ideas on how a hybrid version could work?
Yes, it's called Witch.
You have dominate person, heal, black testicles, raise dead, scrying, teleport and plane shift. There, all the most important features of Wizard and Cleric in one full casting class.
Yeah I LOL-ed when I saw that.
I think it a result of the force effect of a nut-punch from a bigby's unsportsmanlike fist spell.
I am really surprised that there wasn't a cleric/wizard hybrid class. I think that this is definitely needs a good hybrid version because the multiclassing route doesn't work well. Mystic Theurge requires a multiple levels of weakness at the beginning before it starts to pay off.
Does anyone have ideas on how a hybrid version could work?
Yes, it's called Witch.
You have dominate person, heal, black testicles, raise dead, scrying, teleport and plane shift. There, all the most important features of Wizard and Cleric in one full casting class.
Black Testicles? Is that some sort of Necromancer's STD?
:)
Or Demonic. And/or has something to do with BDSM.
There isn't any Cleric/Oracle hybrid (something a bit like the Arcanist), Mystic Theurge was added for its special ability.
... Something with both 10 levels of divine spells and 10 levels of arcane spells, might be broken. (Oracle/Sorcerer would answer the casting stat question/problem)
I started homebrewing a Cleric/Oracle Arcanist-analogue I called the Chosen, but gave up when I realized I couldn't separate the appropriate abilities for the class from the inevitable sue-ness that concept implied.
Also, arcane/divine casting is not as bad as people make it out to be. Sufficiently high level clerics and wizards can emulate each other's abilities pretty well with minimal effort, and both spell lists are so broad that they basically can do anything anyway (though sometimes in slightly different ways). It's only a significant boon at low levels. And even then, it's only broken (relative to what both classes can already do at least) if you really, *really* care about niche protection. (Thou shalt not give the wizard healing spells! It is verboten!)
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I am really surprised that there wasn't a cleric/wizard hybrid class. I think that this is definitely needs a good hybrid version because the multiclassing route doesn't work well. Mystic Theurge requires a multiple levels of weakness at the beginning before it starts to pay off.
Does anyone have ideas on how a hybrid version could work?
Oh, I definitely do!!! But it will be about a month or so until everyone can see it :)
How was that for cryptic? ;)
Sounds exciting! How about a sorcerer/oracle hybrid? That isn't something we can do yet with our current rule set.
Thread moved to House Rules. :)
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@Sean - I don't think the move 'took' :)
@ElyasRavenwood - that's certainly an interesting idea! In fact, I was toying with just such an archetype for the Theurge, but there wasn't room in the book (even with 128 pages, the New Paths Compendium is packed with stuff!)
Maybe I'll finish that archetype and post it somewhere - might be a good item for the Kobold Press web site ...
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Marc,
Thank you. This sort of hybrid was something I was hoping to see in the ACG . With a 4th level oracle/4th level Sorcerer, 2nd level Mystic Theurge you are getting your 3rd level spells at 10 level.
Now I know in the recent FAQ, they are allowing the SLA of a race to count as meeting the prereq for a prestige class like the MT, but I would not want to assume that a GM will allow such a ruling in their game.
I just think with oracle curses, mysteries, revelevations, sorcerer bloodlines, there is lots of room for an interesting character in terms of role playing, and mixing abilities.
Marc, I look forward to what you are putting together,
Myles Crocker
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*hammers at two buttons for a while*
That did it.
I guess the first question to answer when making any new class is: what about it is most appealing? Are mystic theurges cool because they have a lot of utility because of the vast amount of spells they have? Or is it some flavor reason like "I think it'd be great to play a mage who became a preacher after he found some sort of spirituality in the wonder of magic." ?
So I think after a universally loved concept is decided on... we can decide if it's gonna be an oracle/sorcerer, wizard/cleric, etc.
But I completely agree, I'm surprised Paizo went with a sorcerer/wizard hybrid instead of two full divine/arcane caster hybrids. (a witch does this job pretty well though)
(On a semi-related note, I'm trying to craft the Priest. An armorless and weaponless divine caster. One of its key abilities grants it an arcane spell every time odd level. That might be what some people are looking for. The Priest is in the homebrew forums if you want to help make it!)
Marc,
Thank you. This sort of hybrid was something I was hoping to see in the ACG . With a 4th level oracle/4th level Sorcerer, 2nd level Mystic Theurge you are getting your 3rd level spells at 10 level.Now I know in the recent FAQ, they are allowing the SLA of a race to count as meeting the prereq for a prestige class like the MT, but I would not want to assume that a GM will allow such a ruling in their game.
I just think with oracle curses, mysteries, revelevations, sorcerer bloodlines, there is lots of room for an interesting character in terms of role playing, and mixing abilities.
Marc, I look forward to what you are putting together,
Myles Crocker
Oracle spellcasting with Sorcerer bloodline arcana, powers, feats and bonus spells?
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I guess the first question to answer when making any new class is: what about it is most appealing? Are mystic theurges cool because they have a lot of utility because of the vast amount of spells they have? Or is it some flavor reason like "I think it'd be great to play a mage who became a preacher after he found some sort of spirituality in the wonder of magic." ?
Mystic Theurge has more than one reason it appeals, because there's more than one combination it can work with. With just the core classes, you can use it to make a Cleric/Wizard, Cleric/Bard, Cleric/Sorcerer, Druid/Wizard, Druid/Bard, or Druid/Sorcerer. Arguably, a faithful base class rendition of the mystic theurge would have to cover (at least) all of these. And even within each combination, there are many different character concepts.
That said, if I were to make a Cleric/Wizard hybrid class, I'd make them a sort of magical anthropologist. A scholar on a deeply personal quest to travel the world and learn as many different philosophical and cultural perspectives as they can, whether to gain a more complex understanding and context for their own beliefs and values or to find themselves new ones, and drawing divine spell power from this understanding.
Mystic Theurge is my FAVORITE if you can't tell :D
However, because class features get loooost whenever someone makes a MT, I don't think anyone that plays a MT really cares toooo much about class features ;) It's all about getting a TON of spells!!! So think the Mystic Theurge should be a wizard/cleric hybrid without any strings attached. Just a total AWESOME spellcaster that gets a ton of divine and arcane spells! Although for balance reasons, you may need to make it a 6th level caster that gets 8 of each spell level (4 arcane + 4 divine) at level 20.
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Mystic Theurge is my FAVORITE if you can't tell :D
However, because class features get loooost whenever someone makes a MT, I don't think anyone that plays a MT really cares toooo much about class features ;) It's all about getting a TON of spells!!! So think the Mystic Theurge should be a wizard/cleric hybrid without any strings attached. Just a total AWESOME spellcaster that gets a ton of divine and arcane spells! Although for balance reasons, you may need to make it a 6th level caster that gets 8 of each spell level (4 arcane + 4 divine) at level 20.
This is more or less the approach taken with the Theurge in the New Paths Compendium - a wizard / cleric type class with lots of spells (all the way up to 9th). The class does have some interesting class features / abilities too - Innate Spell, Spell Synthesis, Combine Spells etc., plus a unique way for the Theurge to aquire his divine spells that makes perfect sense given the overall theme of the class :)
Would a Cleric/Wizard hybrid needs both Int and Wis?
That said, if I were to make a Cleric/Wizard hybrid class, I'd make them a sort of magical anthropologist. A scholar on a deeply personal quest to travel the world and learn as many different philosophical and cultural perspectives as they can, whether to gain a more complex understanding and context for their own beliefs and values or to find themselves new ones, and drawing divine spell power from this understanding.
However, because class features get loooost whenever someone makes a MT, I don't think anyone that plays a MT really cares toooo much about class features ;) It's all about getting a TON of spells!!! So think the Mystic Theurge should be a wizard/cleric hybrid without any strings attached. Just a total AWESOME spellcaster that gets a ton of divine and arcane spells! Although for balance reasons, you may need to make it a 6th level caster that gets 8 of each spell level (4 arcane + 4 divine) at level 20.
It's very interesting to hear what others want from the MT. Here's hoping we get more opinions!
As for myself, the appeal of the MT is that it transcends one of the game's oldest legacy quirks: the arcane-divine divide. From my PoV, the divide is arbitrary, unnecessary, counter to the game fluff, and counter to my idea of the generic magic-user.
So for me, the MT isn't about combining the divine and the arcane: it's about eliminating the artificial divide that causes this whole issue in the first place. Ideally, we wouldn't need a MT class: we'd standardize spell levels, add every spell in the game to the sorc/wiz spell list, and call it a day. (Except maybe for spells which necessitate a divine origin, like flame strike because it deals divine damage.)
But, because that idea offends or scares most PF vets for various reasons, the next best thing is a simple sorc/wizard archetype which trades some minor class feature for the minor advantage of having theoretical access to the few spells that aren't already on the sorc/wiz spell list. Call it the All-Mage, and throw it into the next splat. :)
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Hey everyone - I thought I'd jump back in here to see if any of you had a chance to check out the Theurge in the New Paths Compendium
The class has received really great response and I'd be interested in hearing what all the Cleric/Wizard hybrid class in this thread think :)
I am really surprised that there wasn't a cleric/wizard hybrid class. I think that this is definitely needs a good hybrid version because the multiclassing route doesn't work well. Mystic Theurge requires a multiple levels of weakness at the beginning before it starts to pay off.
Does anyone have ideas on how a hybrid version could work?
Yes, it's called Witch.
You have dominate person, heal, black testicles, raise dead, scrying, teleport and plane shift. There, all the most important features of Wizard and Cleric in one full casting class.
Black Testicles? Is that some sort of Necromancer's STD?
:)
Or Demonic. And/or has something to do with BDSM.
Come to think of it, Demonic would probably be Blue Testicles.