| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Suggesting a more flexible sacred weapon is tearing down then?Less interesting sacred weapon that will basically make favored weapon completely meaningless and therefore the bonuses be arbitrary is how I would put it.
Well, the sacred weapon will still be used to make the class viable, and your favored weapon still gets a nifty bonus that can lead into other nifty bonuses. Weapon focus is a tax for a number of things.
Its not completely meaningless. Its still something you can use for roleplay and you do get a bonus with and you can still choose to wield. Downside to narrowing the choice down to just that weapon is everyone who didn't want to wield just that weapon is suddenly punished and somewhat severely. If you open to everyone then everyone wins, except the guy who really didn't want other people to get what they want I guess.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think that this thread should just close until we see a revision... I mean, this is getting ridiculous.
Favored weapon, no favored weapon... the class is broken either way. It fails to represent its theme in an appropriate manner and it is functionally worse than a multiclassed Cleric/Fighter.
I mean... I get that spellcombat has already come out as the best option to fix this... and it will probably be the answer to fixing the class.... but honestly? They could just remove Sacred weapon for all I care... it is NOT a big deal. Casting divine spells in combat... that is a big deal.
If this is such a problem for people, they should just get rid of sacred weapon and the free weapon focus... AKA if you guys can't get along, no one gets the toy.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Punished...
Seriously this whole "punished" mindset boggles me.
If you don't get exactly what you want you are punished...
It is a bonus to the favored weapon of the deity you choose. There are how many deities you can select from?
And the class is also a 6 level caster with other abilities.
And on top of that, we are proposing a feat that lets you add these bonuses (including weapon focus for free...) to any weapon in the game.
Punished...feat tax...
Can you imagine trying to get the Wizard or Sorcerer through a playtest?
"What if I want to be an armored mage? Why are you punishing me?"
Non-sequitor.
Since we are not getting anywhere with this guy how about we drop the subject and pick it back up when they come out with the new sacred weapon rules?
|
|
I think that this thread should just close until we see a revision... I mean, this is getting ridiculous.
Favored weapon, no favored weapon... the class is broken either way. It fails to represent its theme in an appropriate manner and it is functionally worse than a multiclassed Cleric/Fighter.
I mean... I get that spellcombat has already come out as the best option to fix this... and it will probably be the answer to fixing the class.... but honestly? They could just remove Sacred weapon for all I care... it is NOT a big deal. Casting divine spells in combat... that is a big deal.
If this is such a problem for people, they should just get rid of sacred weapon and the free weapon focus... AKA if you guys can't get along, no one gets the toy.
Please not this solution.
Suddenly nothing but one handed melee warpriests...how diverse...
Since we are not getting anywhere with this guy how about we drop the subject and pick it back up when they come out with the new sacred weapon rules?
I'm fine with putting this topic to rest until we get more details about the revised warpriest. To me it sounds like the core mechanics are changing so significantly that speculating is of limited use.
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ciretose, I'm going to put this as succinctly as I can: One word on one line of a chart does not equate to flavor in any meaningful sense of the word. Saying that Shelyn favors the glaive tells me nothing about how to roleplay one of her followers, and in fact is likely to give the completely wrong idea taken in isolation. You keep harping on and on about flavor in relation to something that in the vast majority of cases is arbitrary; if you want to enforce flavor on the warpriest, devise deity-specific codes of behavior, religious dogma, the ideals of the deity, in short things that actually have some form of substance that informs how one would/should roleplay the character. Favored weapon doesn't do that in any meaningful way.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ciretose, I'm going to put this as succinctly as I can: One word on one line of a chart does not equate to flavor in any meaningful sense of the word. Saying that Shelyn favors the glaive tells me nothing about how to roleplay one of her followers, and in fact is likely to give the completely wrong idea taken in isolation. You keep harping on and on about flavor in relation to something that in the vast majority of cases is arbitrary; if you want to enforce flavor on the warpriest, devise deity-specific codes of behavior, religious dogma, the ideals of the deity, in short things that actually have some form of substance that informs how one would/should roleplay the character. Favored weapon doesn't do that in any meaningful way.
I promised myself I'd let this thread rest for a while, but...
*Slow Clap*
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ciretose, I'm going to put this as succinctly as I can: One word on one line of a chart does not equate to flavor in any meaningful sense of the word. Saying that Shelyn favors the glaive tells me nothing about how to roleplay one of her followers, and in fact is likely to give the completely wrong idea taken in isolation. You keep harping on and on about flavor in relation to something that in the vast majority of cases is arbitrary; if you want to enforce flavor on the warpriest, devise deity-specific codes of behavior, religious dogma, the ideals of the deity, in short things that actually have some form of substance that informs how one would/should roleplay the character. Favored weapon doesn't do that in any meaningful way.I promised myself I'd let this thread rest for a while, but...
*Slow Clap*
*Gradual increase in clapping*
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
*Gradual increase in clapping*Ciretose, I'm going to put this as succinctly as I can: One word on one line of a chart does not equate to flavor in any meaningful sense of the word. Saying that Shelyn favors the glaive tells me nothing about how to roleplay one of her followers, and in fact is likely to give the completely wrong idea taken in isolation. You keep harping on and on about flavor in relation to something that in the vast majority of cases is arbitrary; if you want to enforce flavor on the warpriest, devise deity-specific codes of behavior, religious dogma, the ideals of the deity, in short things that actually have some form of substance that informs how one would/should roleplay the character. Favored weapon doesn't do that in any meaningful way.I promised myself I'd let this thread rest for a while, but...
*Slow Clap*
*roaring applause*
|
|
Ciretose, I'm going to put this as succinctly as I can: One word on one line of a chart does not equate to flavor in any meaningful sense of the word. Saying that Shelyn favors the glaive tells me nothing about how to roleplay one of her followers, and in fact is likely to give the completely wrong idea taken in isolation. You keep harping on and on about flavor in relation to something that in the vast majority of cases is arbitrary; if you want to enforce flavor on the warpriest, devise deity-specific codes of behavior, religious dogma, the ideals of the deity, in short things that actually have some form of substance that informs how one would/should roleplay the character. Favored weapon doesn't do that in any meaningful way.
|
|
It is almost if there was published material that you could purchase that had information about the gods and why they favor certain weapons.
If only there were a publisher that produced and sold these materials...why I bet if that publisher did that, they would wish to encourage people to learn about these flavorful stories and integrate them into the game to assure sales of books that followed this flavor.
Particularly if the primary source of revenue was from setting material such as modules located in this setting, rather than rule sets.
|
|
Yes, I'm aware of that, thank you, but it bears no relation to the point. -_- The Focus Weapon ability doesn't convey any of that. It just says "Thou shalt use the weapon named in column 5 of Table 3-6 in the Core Rulebook in the row pertaining to thy deity, or thou shalt not have the use of thy class features. Because reasons."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is almost if there was published material that you could purchase that had information about the gods and why they favor certain weapons.
If only there were a publisher that produced and sold these materials...why I bet if that publisher did that, they would wish to encourage people to learn about these flavorful stories and integrate them into the game to assure sales of books that followed this flavor.
Particularly if the primary source of revenue was from setting material such as modules located in this setting, rather than rule sets.
Sorry Ciretose, posting the only revealed explanation for a Deity's favored weapon doesn't win you brownie points.
It also doesn't explain why she wants all her followers to wield it when she knows it used to be a horrible device.
Edit: Heck she probably doesn't even use the thing itself since it steals souls so why would she want her followers wielding glaives?
When its all blue text its a bit more difficult to read.
That said, I think the point was that while the glaive defines Shelyn, it doesn't define a worshipper of Shelyn. When forced it just becomes their weapon. It doesn't help them define a personality or traits that resemble their deity. Look the part maybe, but some deities are never seen with their favored weapon, and some don't even look like they could wield the darn thing.
Ok since you literally cherry picked the one weapon with good backstory hows about you tell us the story of phasmara dagger abadars crossbow erastils bow or gorums. Greatsword. Ill wait
Fun fact: Gorum endorses armor spikes! And his herald, the first blade, punches things!
|
|
Yes, I'm aware of that, thank you, but it bears no relation to the point. -_- The Focus Weapon ability doesn't convey any of that. It just says "Thou shalt use the weapon named in column 5 of Table 3-6 in the Core Rulebook in the row pertaining to thy deity, or thou shalt not have the use of thy class features. Because reasons."
Because they haven't written pages of articles on each god and how they worship. I know, I read them each month in my subscription. They are good, you should join.
Because this isn't a divine class dedicated to serving a deity, a deity which has a weapon the deity favors.
They literally call it "Sacred Weapon".
What verbiage could they include to satisfy the fact that this is the chosen weapon of the god?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
but that would violate flavorOk since you literally cherry picked the one weapon with good backstory hows about you tell us the story of phasmara dagger abadars crossbow erastils bow or gorums. Greatsword. Ill waitFun fact: Gorum endorses armor spikes! And his herald, the first blade, punches things!
I'd tell him he's doing things wrong, but The First Blade, Herald of Gorum, is a bit bigger than me... You wanna' do it? And those guys with spiked armor are... pointy. I'm not going to tell them what to do!
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ok since you literally cherry picked the one weapon with good backstory hows about you tell us the story of phasmara dagger abadars crossbow erastils bow or gorums. Greatsword. Ill wait
IIRC there are some fringe cults of Iomedae who believe in only using longswords, ever, as a way of expressing their devotion to her. The main body of her church in Lastwall considers them to be whacko heretics.
Which should tell you just how stupid of an idea sacred weapon actually is, even from a roleplaying perspective.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Clearly a new deity needs to rise up from the ranks of mortals. Their favored weapon will be a rust monster. Nobody knows how its clerics and warpriests are supposed to wield rust monsters, but it shall be so. Gorum may have a problem.
Anywho, I would like to see a warpriest of Pharasma roaming around with a dagger. Not only would it be funny, but they might could prove to people that daggers are not as useless as it seems many are inclined to believe.
|
|
Ok since you literally cherry picked the one weapon with good backstory hows about you tell us the story of phasmara dagger abadars crossbow erastils bow or gorums. Greatsword. Ill waitHow did I cherry pick what someone else stated? Did I plant it in someone elses mind?
I wish I had that power.
You picked it to begin with; I ran with it because it was your example. Yes there's a backstory behind it, one that suggests that people shouldn't be wielding the darned thing. Seriously, the posts are all there and people can read; don't pretend I picked Shelyn out of the blue.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'll try to be succinct.
The Focus Weapon ability effectively pigeon-holes the warpriest into both a mechanical and thematic role. It needs to be redressed. No amount of handwavium, be it due to published material regarding the reasons why particular gods favour particular weapons having cool and flavourful text or not, sufficiently addresses this design flaw.
|
|
still waiting on the flavor backstory on any other diety weapon. If its such a fundemental part of their religion it shouldn't be a problem for you to get with your mighty subscription.Yes, I'm aware of that, thank you, but it bears no relation to the point. -_- The Focus Weapon ability doesn't convey any of that. It just says "Thou shalt use the weapon named in column 5 of Table 3-6 in the Core Rulebook in the row pertaining to thy deity, or thou shalt not have the use of thy class features. Because reasons."Because they haven't written pages of articles on each god and how they worship. I know, I read them each month in my subscription. They are good, you should join.
Because this isn't a divine class dedicated to serving a deity, a deity which has a weapon the deity favors.
They literally call it "Sacred Weapon".
What verbiage could they include to satisfy the fact that this is the chosen weapon of the god?
Sure. First Pharasma then I'll look up the others.
"All priests carry a skane, a double-edge ceremonial dagger with a dull gray blade, often with a stylized depiction of the goddess’s face and hair on the pommel. The dagger is used to hold open prayer scrolls, to touch parts of a corpse when performing death rites, to cut shrouds for the dead and the umbilical cord of newborns, and to slice kolash on
feast days. It is not forbidden for a priest to use a skane to draw blood or take a life, but some refuse to do so, and carry a different weapon if they must fight.
A casarmetzes carries a special skane, bearing Pharasma’s likeness on one side of the pommel and a crying child on the other."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is almost if there was published material that you could purchase that had information about the gods and why they favor certain weapons.
If only there were a publisher that produced and sold these materials...why I bet if that publisher did that, they would wish to encourage people to learn about these flavorful stories and integrate them into the game to assure sales of books that followed this flavor.
Particularly if the primary source of revenue was from setting material such as modules located in this setting, rather than rule sets.
Someone who cares enough to read all that backstory in order to properly role play a worshiper of a certain god probably also cares enough to choose an appropriate weapon. Or maybe they'll read the lore, decide there's no compelling reason to use a specific weapon, and make their character differently.
Someone who doesn't care enough to read that isn't suddenly going to make a devout and flavorful Shelynite because the favored weapons table says "glaive".
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
still waiting on the flavor backstory on any other diety weapon. If its such a fundemental part of their religion it shouldn't be a problem for you to get with your mighty subscription.Yes, I'm aware of that, thank you, but it bears no relation to the point. -_- The Focus Weapon ability doesn't convey any of that. It just says "Thou shalt use the weapon named in column 5 of Table 3-6 in the Core Rulebook in the row pertaining to thy deity, or thou shalt not have the use of thy class features. Because reasons."Because they haven't written pages of articles on each god and how they worship. I know, I read them each month in my subscription. They are good, you should join.
Because this isn't a divine class dedicated to serving a deity, a deity which has a weapon the deity favors.
They literally call it "Sacred Weapon".
What verbiage could they include to satisfy the fact that this is the chosen weapon of the god?
Sure. First Pharasma then I'll look up the others.
"All priests carry a skane, a double-edge ceremonial dagger with a dull gray blade, often with a stylized depiction of the goddess’s face and hair on the pommel. The dagger is used to hold open prayer scrolls, to touch parts of a corpse when performing death rites, to cut shrouds for the dead and the umbilical cord of newborns, and to slice kolash on
feast days. It is not forbidden for a priest to use a skane to draw blood or take a life, but some refuse to do so, and carry a different weapon if they must fight.
A casarmetzes carries a special skane, bearing Pharasma’s likeness on one side of the pommel and a crying child on the other."
So it's ceremonial, has a bunch of specific uses that aren't "fighting", and some priests actually refuse to fight with it as a matter of faith.
Yeah, Pharasma definitely wants her Warpriests to use a dagger.
EDIT: This is actually the strongest argument against using favored weapons I've seen yet. It's pretty clear proof that the favored weapons list was not made with something like the Warpriest in mind.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It is not forbidden for a priest to use a skane to draw blood or take a life, but some refuse to do so, and carry a different weapon if they must fight.
Once again, a deity's actual flavor illustrates why Sacred Weapon is a bad idea.
Well, I do think that for certain Golarion Gods there is a stronger connection to the favored weapon. Sarenrae and Iomedae come to mind as being a bit more interested in particular weapons.
Desna.. less so. Pharasma almost not at all really.
Should this be a player choice? I dunno.... its a decent argument either way. I like the idea of favored weapons and even fighting styles, it makes a warpriest serving Deity A different from a warpriest serving deity B. They end up being recognizable across a battlefield as servants of a particular god. I like that idea.
If you let Warpriests just pick their own weapon, then you will see a few optimal choices, sure. SOme will go with favored weapon by choice (hey Gorum is still rocking a greatsword) some won't.
At the same time... I think that a choice of Deity should align itself far more with philosophy and character concept than with a weapon choice... and that becomes one of those unfortunate casualties of the mechanics.
I am not sure that it is a good thing for a player to want to make a thematic choice of Deity but be held back in hesitance by a weak mechanical result of that choice.
There is enough of that going around... and some of that is okay to an extent, but it is best to avoid it where possible.
Still, the removal that avoids this conundrum also removes with it a fair degree of flavor. So perhaps they could simply expand the list for Gods favored weapons JUST for the Warpriest. Pharasma favors the dagger, but should it be so wrong to add another weapon to that list? The mace is quite good at smashing up skeletons, perhaps Pharasma could favor that as well for the more militant followers.
In fact, I think it is fair to say that there might be different favored weapons for some religions for the Cleric and the Warpriest. This is like saying that there are different symbols specific to either the Church or the Templar. So while a cleric of pharasma might use a dagger, a warpriest of pharasma might use a hammer.
If they did this, then nothing really changes for the warlike Deities. Their clerics are likely not separated from a more militant sect... they are ALL militant.
But for the less militant worshippers of Desna, Pharasma, Erastil, Shelyn, there could be a different symbolic weapon of import.
This would allow a warpriest a bit more choice. It would sure up the deities that are weak in this area, and it keeps a lot of the flavor alive.
Personally, I would like to see 2-3 weapons for each deity to choose from, including of course their normal favored weapon.
|
|
Abadar
"As meters of justice, each priest traditionally carries a single golden-headed crossbow bolt for when a criminal must be executed. This bolt goes to the dead criminal’s family as compensation for the loss and a means to make an honest living."
Needed to type that one. Need to find the Erastil book next.
I think that this thread should just close until we see a revision... I mean, this is getting ridiculous.
Favored weapon, no favored weapon... the class is broken either way. It fails to represent its theme in an appropriate manner and it is functionally worse than a multiclassed Cleric/Fighter.
I mean... I get that spellcombat has already come out as the best option to fix this... and it will probably be the answer to fixing the class.... but honestly? They could just remove Sacred weapon for all I care... it is NOT a big deal. Casting divine spells in combat... that is a big deal.
If this is such a problem for people, they should just get rid of sacred weapon and the free weapon focus... AKA if you guys can't get along, no one gets the toy.
Amen. I LIKE their using favored weapons but if it is going to take a f#$&ing inquisition and 20 men working around the clock to get something to agree on, I would prefer to get my sweet savory deific flavor through some other mechanic.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Two to three favoured weapons per deity would be nice. However, one could equalise the favoured weapon factor by granting the warpriest an ability that improves the weapon to a set value (for example, increasing the damage on their favoured weapon to 2d8 damage, no matter what the weapon's damage was before). This does, unfortunately, water down some of the aspects of play that make things a bit more interesting, but it removes the incentive to choose deities that already favour better weapons by making the choice more symbolic.
Just a thought.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Abadar
"As meters of justice, each priest traditionally carries a single golden-headed crossbow bolt for when a criminal must be executed. This bolt goes to the dead criminal’s family as compensation for the loss and a means to make an honest living."
Needed to type that one. Need to find the Erastil book next.
So all Warpriests of Abadar should run around stabbing people with golden-tipped crossbow bolts?
So what I'm getting from this is that a warpriest of Shelyn should be able to use any intelligent evil weapon as a favored weapon. I don't see how it being a glaive is the least bit significant.......
I don't want to get into this too far, since fundamentally I agree with you, but Shelyn wields her glaive to remind her worshipers that it is sometimes necessary to fight for the things you love (her brother, in her case). Priests of Shelyn would therefore wield glaives to remind themselves and others of the same thing. Since the message is about fighting, it seems appropriate for Warpriests to use glaives.
Of course, that doesn't mean that Shelyn would stop blessing them if they needed to pull out a hammer and smash some skeletons.
Erastil is in the second volume of Kingmaker I think.
|
|
Erastil's entry isn't as specific, it says all of his followers are proficient in bows. But his holy symbol is a bow made out of antlers so...you know....kind of central.
For Gorum
"Given that his favored weapon is the greatsword, the use of shields is less common than in other martial faiths"
Also, if anyone could cite where I or anyone said the only weapon that could be used is the favored one, that would be great.
Because what I believe I've said, consistently, is that the favored weapon should be favored.
But maybe that is a harder position to argue against, so you know, just make up stuff I said I guess...
Erastil's entry isn't as specific, it says all of his followers are proficient in bows. But his holy symbol is a bow made out of antlers so...you know....kind of central.
For Gorum
"Given that his favored weapon is the greatsword, the use of shields is less common than in other martial faiths"
Also, if anyone could cite where I or anyone said the only weapon that could be used is the favored one, that would be great.
Because what I believe I've said, consistently, is that the favored weapon should be favored.
But maybe that is a harder position to argue against, so you know, just make up stuff I said I guess...
In some cases, that makes sense, glaives and Shelyn being a good example. But Pharasma? Can you honestly claim with a straight face that the text you quoted suggests that Pharasma would favor her Warpriests fighting with daggers?
|
|
Nothing about favoriting it in combat though.Abadar
"As meters of justice, each priest traditionally carries a single golden-headed crossbow bolt for when a criminal must be executed. This bolt goes to the dead criminal’s family as compensation for the loss and a means to make an honest living."
Needed to type that one. Need to find the Erastil book next.
They just favor it for hanging out at bars.
Are you honestly going to argue that the favored weapon is not actually favored?
Really?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Erastil's entry isn't as specific, it says all of his followers are proficient in bows. But his holy symbol is a bow made out of antlers so...you know....kind of central.
Erastil is so much more badass now that I know his favored weapon is a moose.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Are we done here? I would prefer to move on to other topics since this isn't going to be moving anywhere.