Hi there
I am building a cleric for an upcoming Carrion Crown campaign. I'm in a 3 man party so we are trying to build our characters to complement each other. I settled on a Cleric of Pharasma (which just won out over a half-elf Hedge Witch).
Other characters:
Aasimar (Angelblooded) Undead Scourge Paladin
Human Rogue (probably levels in Fighter later)
and my character, Human Cleric of Pharasma.
I've decided to aim for a pure caster/buffer/channeller character, with Knowledge and Repose domains.
We are in a 25 point buy.
Here's my feats I'm looking at:
1: Selective Channel
H: Skill Focus
3: Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) (Raven familiar!)
5: Spell Focus (Conjuring)
7: Leadership or Versatile Channeling (undecided)
9: Augment Summoning
11: Superior Summons
13: Quicken Spell
15: Improved Eldritch Heritage (Free quickens 3/day).
Attributes so far:
Str: 9
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 12
Wis: 18
Cha: 15
Campaign finishes at level 15.
What I am at the cross roads of - is investing so deeply in the Eldritch Heritage line (3 feats)? As an alternative I was thinking:
Selective Channel -> Versatile Channel -> Quick Channel -> Improved Channel.
As I need to decide what to do by level 1 (the extra feat for being human) I could do with some advice on what is the best approach here. Since the character worships Pharasma, it seems sad to not take Versatile Summoning since I cannot take Sacred Summons.
Does anyone have any advice/feedback on this? No spoilers on the AP - I already know enough. Yes I know there is undead.
Thanks
If you're thinking of yourself as an anti-undead cleric, selective channel may be a waste. You can't accidentally heal undead, or hurt your allies while harming undead. Quick Channel and Extra Channel can be quite good.
Thanks for the feedback. I will keep that in mind.
I guess what I debating is the value of channeling feat chain vs eldritch heritage chain.
I might add that the Paladin claims he will be the face but he has dumped his INT and so I think it will fall to me. Thus I am wondering if it is worthwhile actually switching to a half-elf and trading Adaptability for Sociable.
Which leads to my next point - I forgot to add which traits I took:
Dangerously Curious (for UMD as I am the only caster and have a decent charisma)
Eyes and Ears of the City (for Perception - yes this is an Abadar trait but I think it fits the background and my GM is quite fair on things like this).
Hi.
I’m gonna give you some advice. You may not like them, but I hope they can help you.
1. Channel Energy is nice, but basing your character on it is boring and ineffective. The only exception I’ve come across is an Aasimar Life Oracle with the Blackened Curse.
2. If you do want to specialize on killing undeads and using channel energy, Pharasma is the wrong god. Trust me, I’ve played a Pharsma cleric in CC. You really want the Sun domain.
3. You have high Char and extremely high wisdom so I gather you want to focus on spells and channeling. Again, Pharsma is the wrong God. Her domain spells suck (BTW, Healing is an overrated domain). I know clerics are full casters, but out of all the full casters clerics have the worst spell list so you want to pick useful and fun domains. We had a Sarenrae Cleric some time back that blasted stuff with fireball. Very Nice. At higher levels he used other spells, but for taking care of mooks it very useful. Since you lack an arcane caster Sarenrae could be a good pick.
4. As a cleric you are usually better of played as a hybrid class and not a caster. This is especially true if you play in a small party and even more if you start from level 1. The exception is if you start you character from a high level when you already have a lot of spells and feats.
5. You said no spoilers, but when I see your build you seem to be under the impression that this is an almost only undead campaign. This is not true. True there are undeads in this campaign, but obviously you will face other foes as well. If you just specialize your feat selection in targeting undeads, you will have problems.
6. Pharsma isn’t the best good if you want to focus on summons. That said I think Sacred Summons may not be necessary. Yes it is a very very good feat, but only if you know exactly what you are doing. Also there are Rods and you can plan ahead. Superior Summons is good. Spam the battle field with Lantern Archons can make any GM cry. A warning tough. Your party is very small so there is a risk you will be a target. Casting spells in battle with a Casting Time of 1 round can be risky so in your case Sacred Summons could be a life savior especially since SM is a great utility spell.
7. Spread out your stats. You don’t need 18 wisdom. With a small party you will need to fight. Even if you are a bigger party, what will you do when you have use you don’t need to channel or you don’t have the right spell or even when you don’t have any spells? I made the same mistake, and it was inefficient and really boring playing my cleric. You don’t need 16 str and build your cleric as a warmachine. 14 str, reach weapon (long spear) and some buffs and you will be fins. As long as you got something to to when you can’t cast spells or use channel.
8. Be smart. It is a well-known fact that this campaign is heavily influenced by call of cthulhu. The most important thing to remember success is based on research, smart tactics, being well prepared (scrolls, rope, wands, weapons, etc) and to know when to call it a day. Or as they say in call of cthulhu: RUN AWAY!!! So knowledge skills isn’t bad.
9. Talk to you GM about Eldritch Heritage. A) It does not grant Free quickens 3/day. B) I can’t see any proof that it does grant bonus spells. I’ve seen this debated, but so far it really up to your GM to say yes or no. (I would say no). If your GM says yes, then perhaps you should pick a different bloodline if you plan to go deep into the bloodline, since the part will need some good arcane spells. I think the first feat is kind of cool (getting a Raven), but I would not go deeper.
10. Right. Here comes the bomb. Is it really a cleric your party needs. I personally think you need a class that can cast some arcane and some divine spells and that got more skills would be better. A Bard would probably be perfect. There are even archetypes that are good healers, although I think that healing in battle is overrated. Especially in small parties. Even an oracle would be better. In fact, an Oracle could be a perfect compromise. You could even play him as a cleric.
Finally: If healing and channeling is what you want Life oracle is good since it uses the same stat for both things and it has more skill points, but playing an oracle will make it almost impossible to focus on summon monster.
===================================================
Now, if you are set on playing a Cleric here are my advices:
Talk to your GM about Eldritch Heritage. How does it actually work and what does the feat chain grant you. If I did pick Eldritch Heritage I would only pick one feat and I would also pick Improved familiar. Something smart enough to use wands. Honestly, I would rather pick Leadership.
If spells and channeling is what you want change God. Pharsma is also a boring god.
If you want to use summon monster spells (which in your small party could be really useful) change God. Pharsma suck.
Selective Channel isn’t bad, but I wouldn’t take any more than on Channeling feat. Channel is nice to have as a utility tool, but it isn’t worth investing heavily in it. Trust me. I did and it was wasted. Selective Channel is good when you fight living creatures. If you mainly going to use it for dealing with undeads, Improved Channel is much better feat to take. Especially with the Sun domain.
You need some more strength so you can help fighting, so you can take some strength drain, so you can carrying stuff , etc. You need some strength.
If you want to help others, you need to stay alive. You need more con.
Suggested stats:
Str: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wisd: 16
Con 14
You can put you last point into dex or int.
Or:
Str: 13
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wisd: 16
Char 14
I still think 14 str is better, but you do want fits you better. High con means you can put all your favored class points into skills.
Or if you want more skills:
Str: 14
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wisdom: 16
Char 14
Pick Leadership. You need someone with arcane spells and skills. Bard would be perfect. Lore or Flame oracle could also be good. Any full caster can be good, but I would probably pick a caster that is easy to play.
If I was playing a cleric in that campaign here is how I would do it.
Str: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 16
Char: 14
Domains: Sun and Fire or Sun and Glory
I would aim for versatility and summon monster is a really good tool that helps with versatility. I will only be able to summon good creatures, but that is only fitting. Sacred Summons will be really useful in a small party. Superior Summons can also be useful, but at higher levels. If you don’t plan on taking Superior Summons you may not even need Augment Summoning. If you focus heavely on SM you may not even need Leadership.
Perhaps pick some Craft feat: CWI is a good one.
edit:
BTW, If your GM let you retrain feats Improved Channel is a good pick and Turn Undead can actually be a good Battle Field Control ability.
The thing is, regardless what campaign you play channel energy isn’t really good past mid levels unless you invest heavily in it. At higher levels you can hit undeads with heal or even mass cure spells.
Even if you invest heavily in it, it still only going to be descent unless you really invest all what you got: Picking the Sun and Glory domains, boosting charisma, getting magic items to boost your channel. Etc.
I might add that the Paladin claims he will be the face but he has dumped his INT and so I think it will fall to me. Thus I am wondering if it is worthwhile actually switching to a half-elf and trading Adaptability for Sociable.
Which leads to my next point - I forgot to add which traits I took:
Dangerously Curious (for UMD as I am the only caster and have a decent charisma)
Eyes and Ears of the City (for Perception - yes this is an Abadar trait but I think it fits the background and my GM is quite fair on things like this).
Sorry, forgot about this post.
Dangerously Curious is a must have. As pointed out by you are the only caster.
Eyes and Ears of the City is a good trait, but not a must have trait. I think there is a trait that gives a bonus on channeling DC. That isn’t bad.
There are two really good campaign traits: Chance Savior and Teacher’s Pet. Both are really good.
Human is a must. You want the extra skill point per level and you want the feat. 14 charisma and ranks in diplomacy is enough.
As for channeling feat chain vs eldritch heritage chain I say
A) Talk to you GM and post his/her answer. How does she/he rule?
B) I would not go Deep into either of chains. Getting a familiar is cool and useful. The familiar can scout etc.
C) Does your GM use retraining rules?
Zark thanks for that. That's a bit to chew on.
Just to clarify - I know there is more than undead in the campaign. I tried explaining that to the player of the aasimar negative energy resistant undead slayer paladin. I even listed some of types I am aware of. The other player steadfastly insists on playing some dual whip weilding rogue with a dip into fighter or urban barbarian - who isn't really concerned with building an optimal character or much about the fact we are a party of 3...
Also I am flexible with my choice of character. Should I not go a cleric? Other ideas I toyed with were half elf Hedge Witch (can do skills, healing and face duties) or even an Inquisitor of Pharasma (better than a bard IMHO). My main aim was to play something I haven't done before and I have never played a cleric. Oracles are fine and dandy but I like prepared casters. Especially in this group.
As far as choice of deity-
I like Pharasma - conceptually and thematically. Repose and Knowledge looked like very useful around domains especially as the knowledge expert/bookworm of the group. But I admit I struggled with a feat build. I can't see what they are *good* at *apart* from healing. :-( Should I just go melee if I stay a cleric of Pharasma?
I would typically build out a melee cleric or even a reach cleric - especially if I picked a deity like Iomedae or Sarenae. I can do those easy enough. But going a caster cleric seemed different... and looked kinda boring if not built right or with the right strategy.
I don't know if that changes the recommendation but hope that helps. Will ask the GM about feat retraining.
Apologies in advance for bad grammar/typos, my phone is auto correcting - badly.
No apologies is needed. My English is worse and none of us are are writing a book ;)
You are just a party of three. Summons sound good and you don’t need crazy high wisdom to cast summon spells. Also in a party of 3 you will get into melee even if you don’t plan to.
As a God Pharasma can be fun flavor wise, but her domains suck if you want to be a caster and she sucks if you want to specialize in summons. I think a cleric using Summons and melee would be good.
Cleric in this campaign is good. Just build him/her more versatil.
Invest in UMD, some knowledge skills (Religion, History and arcana? Perhaps even some ranks in planes?), diplomacy and sense motive. I would probably max out knowledge arcana and religion although perhaps the Paladin can help out with religion. Leave perception to the rogue and let him/her also invest in UMD and some knowledge skills (Local, nature and dungeoneering? At least local) and perhaps even some ranks in diplomacy and sense motive. Remember that Diplomacy also can be used to gather information.
With no arcane caster it could be a good idea if all three characters invested in UMD. Perhaps you should leave UMD to the rogue and Paladin.
The pally has 2 skill points and so I expect him to be marginally more handy than a BSF or bag of hammers. UMD usage is a big ask but I can ask him to take a few ranks
and invest a trait. I will ask the rogue to invest max ranks in Perception.
Given he worships Sarenrae and I don't want us to be clones I will probably switch to Iomedae and build a melee cleric that blossoms into a summoner in later levels. Does that sound like a better strategy? Or should I still aim for a caster cleric? FWIW I have no interest in PrCing out to Holy Vindicator or the like. It's single class or bust.
Thanks for the advice on channeling. I think will just invest in Selective Channeling and call it there.
Edit:
Melee or caster ? I think as a cleric, especially in this party, you need to be a bit of both. Caster and melee. At lower level your situation will force you to go melee at higher levels spells will be important, but that doesn’t mean that you have to start with more than 16 wisdom.
Go strait Cleric. Spells will be your main thing at higher levels. Stay away from PrC. Espacially Holy Vindicator.
You should talk to the rogue and ask him/her to max out UMD. At higher levels it would be more logical to have the rogue using a wand during battle than forcing the full caster to use it. Also a rogue can use wands to sneak attack and to all sort of cool stuff. It is also good to have two members being able to use wands, especially CLW wands.
Off topic:
Honestly I don’t get why a Paladin with 25 PB needs to dump Int. My current Paladin has 13 int (she will take unsanctioned knowledge as soon as she can) and all my Paladins has at least 10 int. The Paladin skill list great.
On topic again :)
I think you need to plan what you want your Cleric should to. Take the familiar for example. If you are going invest 2 feats and get a familiar ask yourself what why do I want with it and what do I want it to do for me (and for the Group)? Do you want it to be a scout? Then you probably need to max out perception and stealth. Can you afford that? Do you plan to take the improved familiar so you get a familiar with hands. Will your GM allow you to pick neutral familiar such as a Mephit?
I would sit down with my friends and explain to them that a party of three asks for compromises. You should act like a small army and together you need to cover the basic roles in a party.
You are all going to be using weapons at lower levels and even at mid levels. My bet is that even at higher levels you will need so swing a weapon, although I could be wrong. That doesn’t mean you have to max out strength or even adding your bonus points (4, 8 , 12) to strength.
Skills will be important, being prepared and playing clever will be important.
I think summons is a good choice.
I’m not sure getting familiar is a good choice.
Leadership is a very good choice.
Leadership: As I said before, a Bard cohort would be really good. They got a lot of skills, they can buff the whole party and they got arcane spells. Feather step, Invisibility, Glitterdust, Heroism, Good Hope, Haste, Dimension door, Improved invisibility, etc, are all gold. It can also pick craft wondrous items and craft for you. If you pick leadership pick someone that can use arcane spells. If a bard, make it an archer since you already have 3 melee character in the party.
An alternative to leadership is to ask your GM for a NPC Bard. Then it can help you from level 1.
It would be nice if you could post your build when you done. It would be even for fun if you could tell us how they party turned out and tell us of your progress.
Have an excellent gaming experience and best of luck.
edit 2:
I'm not even sure you must pick Selective Channeling, although it makes healing bin battle more easy. In a Group where the Cleric plans on healing using channeling "Fey Foundling" is an insane good feet for everyone to have.
My Paladin picked Fey Foundling. Fey Foundling + lay on hands is just siiiiiiiiilly good.
:)
Linked for phone use:
Fey Foundling
hm, Iomedae. Cool. Sun and Glory can really turn you into an undead destroyer. Might actually be worth picking the Turn undead feat, especially if your GM let you retrain feats.
LG makes it easier to summon Archons.
How about this then?
Domains: Sun, Heroism sub-domain
1: Heavy Armor Proficiency (dump DEX a bit more although Fey Foundling is very interesting...)
H: Selective Channel
3: Power Attack - later retrain SF: Conjuration
5: Furious Focus - later retrain Augment Summoning
7: Leadership
9: Superior Summons
11: Summon Good Monster (damn, NG gets much better picks than LG...)
13: Sacred Summons
15: Divine Interference
Also considered Channel Smite, Guided Hand, Extra Channel for feats up to 3 and maaaybe Greater Channel Smite much later. In fact the more I think about it the more I like that option as Guided Hand is passive and this doesn't require feat retraining as badly and scales with WIS. Unless I want to get rid of Extra Channel when it is not needed.
Have emailed DM re frat retraining too and will wait to hear back.
You don’t need any feats to be a melee cleric. Channel Smite is highly overrated. The extra damage isn’t that good and it will eat your channel. I would avoid it unless you need it for Guided Hand. Although there is a Special Weapon Ability that lets you use wisdom instead of str. I think it also applies to damage. Although I can’t remember it. Just use a long spear and some magic weapon and you get by.
Heavy Armor Proficiency at level 1? Could be good but can you afford heavy armor?
Power Attack and Furious Focus isn’t bad, but I don’t think you need them. At least not Furious Focus.
Summon Good monster. True, NG gets some better picks than LG, but you can still summon NG monsters :)
I would pick Sacred Summons at level 9 or even at level 5. If you are going to use summons you might as well start as soon as possible. The ideal level would be seven, but at level 7 you will pick an even better feat. Leadership :D
At higher levels you might want to swap Selective Channel for spell penetration. You got some really good spells like heal, harm and flame strike. You don’t want them wasted. Also you want to be able to buff your summons in battle and at higher levels they will have SR. On the other hand Selective Channel can be good at higher levels if you want to heal summons with SR. Na, you probably got better things to do.
Heroism sub-domain rocks. It is soooooooo much better than Glory. Good catch! Aura of Heroism is a “Su” so you will have no problem using it on summons with SR.
Over all a good build. I’m not sure you need furious focus or even Summon Good Monster. Don’t forget spell penetration.
Zark - Checked with DM. He will allow retraining.
What build would you recommend? At what point does spellcasting surpass melee. I would guess 5th - 9th level and so retraining somewhere there becomes viable.
In terms of traits I'm still torn. Dangerously Curious is a given. Do I have to be a Fighter to take Defender of the Society?
Sorry if these all sound like noob questions. I am not used to playing a Cleric.
BBT - I had looked at Consecrated Weapon... I don't know how generous the DM will be with letting us buy equipment in this campaign but it can't be that hard to buy I hope.
This thread is kind of focused on the mechanics of building your cleric for combat advantage, and that's fine. I'd like to offer a different perspective--the roleplaying advantages of playing a cleric of Pharasma over a cleric of Iomedae.
The Pharasman church is the Ustalavic state religion. Many Ustalavic people are superstitious and xenophobic. Miracles of Pharasma are probably the one type of magic people are most comfortable with, and a priest of her church will command respect, fear and obedience from peasant's hovels to courts of law to noble salons.
The church of Iomedae is strongly associated with Lastwall, the crusader-founded nation to the south. The two nations are military allies in principle, but there's tension between them concerning the stewardship of the cursed land between them, Virlych. Lots of folks won't know anything about Iomedae and won't want anything to do with her worship, and in some company her priests might encounter political hostility.
If your GM's the sort to bring the richness of the setting into gameplay, weigh the advantages of the Sun and Heroism domains in handling undead--they're significant--versus the heavy roleplaying advantages you'll have with most NPCs.
Incidentally, Knowledge and Repose are excellent domains for this adventure path. True, you end up with a choice of two lackluster first level domain spells (though I can think of times when both are useful), but everything else from level 1-15 is golden. In fact, there's been a recent thread about how borderline overpowered Gentle Repose is. Having a Mass Death Ward SLA is crazy good in this adventure path, too: There's at least one potential TPK I can think of that it could avert. As for Knowledge, your small, skill-point-light party will definitely benefit from the ID-monster-by-touch power and the early scrying SLA.
Finally, if your GM is willing to work with you a little, you can build a priest who Sacred Summons psychopomps. Honestly, lantern archon spam has been done to death--if your GM's ever had to sit through more than one combat with them, he'll be grateful for the variety. And who wouldn't want to sic a Vanth on his undead foes?
By the way, the weapon your Repose/Knowledge cleric will want to buy ASAP is a +1 Conductive Morningstar. Don’t bother with the Channel Smite feat.
Raven’s Head. That is all.
I just asked my DM about Sacred Summons and Psychopomps. Summoning a Vanth is just way too awesome to pass up... that would be amazing...
at 7 or 9 Summon does surpase melee.
If you can retrain both feets at level 7 or 8 do.
Psychopomps? Trust me there are just as good LG creatures.
Regardless, Sacred Summons rocks.
I think you got all the info you need. If you want more feedback send me a PM.
Good luck and don't forget to have fun :D
Yes thanks. I will try and get GM approval on psychopomps. I have a clearer picture in my head now of what I am working towards. It's just a case of seeing if the DM will approve. His biggest bugbear with the system is that none of the players build their character organically and I've told him that is because PF/3.5 penalizes you for doing so (can't take certain feats if you do not meet pre requisites). He is new to DMing PF so less work for him is better.
Thanks again.
Just send me a PM if you have any further questions.
Best of luck!!!