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Greetings,
I'll start with one very simple thing: I'm from Germany. Therefore, some aspects of American law may not be as obvious to me as it is to you, so this might cause some confusion further down the road, so please don't assume something as common knowledge. I watched my share of American TV, so I get the basics, but some finer elements might be different over here.
Also: If you already played Trial of the Beast, feel free to read the post. It (and by extension the rest of the thread) contains nothing about the rest of the AP.
That said...
I'm getting in a somewhat tight spot. My group is on Day 2 of the trial, and some things have been established:
- A bunch of ragged guys (the PCs) can volunteer to defend the accused
- The PCs can present stuff they found as evidence as long as they totally tell the truth
- The judge can produce search warrants if really necessary (they obtained one to follow the trail of the scalpel - that is, an order to let the PCs have a look in the books who bought it). This, however, is usually not possible at the same day if not very urgent.
So far, so good. The group found most of the evidence surrounding the three crime scenes and everything is heading for the first major problem of the group: Vorkstag & Grine.
And frankly, I have no idea how they should operate there.
There are various options here:
- They smash the door and go in. They found enough evidence to be pretty sure they're involved. Problems: The Paladin won't be too happy about this. Also, in RL that's illegaly obtained evidence. At worst, they will all be prosecuted for breaking and entering, manslaughter or even murder.
- They get a search warrant and Vorkstag and Grine comply at first, then flee. Problems: Boring as hell.
- They get a search warrant and Vorkstag and Grine say "Screw this" and start attacking them. Problems: They might just call the guards. I *might* be able to solve this by declaring the PCs the enforcers of the law in this instance, maybe with a neutral person following along - the Paladin and the Sorcerer are both nobles, the former even a lawyer.
The last option seems the best to me and the way to go, but I'm curious. How did you handle the illegaly obtained evidence? Did you just say "It's fine. They're PCs, breaking in somewhere is what they do!" or did you have another solution?
Greetings from Germany,
Blackbot
I my game Judge Dramid deputized the PCs, got them badges and everything. As official court appointed representatives they were free to investigate the swamp, that deserted village with the ghosts, and the burned out asylum.
When they got to the chemical plant it was the dead of night so they left someone to watch the building and beat feet over to the Judge's house and woke her up to get a search warrant. As soon as they got attacked by the unlicensed flesh golem at the gate they had all the probably cause they needed to kick in the doors and dungeon crawl that mother hubbard.
That said, you don't need to conform the game to the American legal system. How would that sort of thing work in Germany? Or more importantly, how would that sort of thing work in Ustalav? The answer is: whatever way is most fun and convenient for your game.
I like the idea of deputising them the problem is that you are already past that in your game
So I say the judges will allow it to be presented in court because its so important and it shows more then just the innocents of the Beast but the guilt of these two very bad people operating in Lepistad
Blackbot, I had something similar to your 3rd option.
The morning after the riot:
My PCs went to Acting Sargent Dun (who was sleeping and hung over after taking credit for protecting the Courthouse) saying they wanted the guards to search V&G as they have evidence that they were involved with the fire. He was begrudgingly helpful, deputized them and told them to get a judge to sign a warrant.
Conveniently, the PCs are working for Judge Daramid and she agreed to sign a warrant after they told her what evidence they had so far.
The PCs returned to V&G and tried to present the warrant, I think I had Vorkstag answer from beyond fence and refuse them entry before returning inside. Then the PCs decided to execute the warrant by breaking through the fence, killing the dog, and proceeding inside the factory to fight a few mongrelmen and V&G (who had prepared themselves by that point, had V all powered up, waiting in his room and Grine hiding the the shadows to sneak attack). Ended up being one of the best encounters in the module.
Any evidence they obtained was legal because of the warrant. They killed Grine, but this was deemed acceptable because he was attacking deputies that were legally searching the premises. Vorkstag was cornered in the Body room and captured, later agreeing to testify at the Trial.
Remember you are just disguising the fact you don't want to arrest the PCs and derail the campaign, if you players come up with something on their own, that is reasonable to pass, allow it! Also, remember the guards/ militia in this town are on the side of the Prosecution and will likely be slow to react to any PC request (Oh, we'll look into that tomorrow/ after the trial)
Something else to consider is the psychology of Lepistatd in regards to the trial itself. People in the town WANT the beast to be guilty. They want to have something to blame all the bad things that happen to them on, whether disappearances, child murders, or arson. Admitting that there are child-serial killers, skin stealing horrors and other things out there responsible for terrible things happening is disquieting, especially since doing so is an admission of powerlessness against the things that lurk on their very doorstep. This makes it all the more important about how the PCs present their actions, especially since they are outsiders.
With Vorstag and Grine, criminal psychology comes heavily into play. I don't think the two would ever do anything to draw attention to themselves, and that includes calling the town guards. Considering how many victims the two have left behind and how careful they would have to be to cover their tracks in a world of Divinations and other investigative tools, calling the guards to help defend their lair which has zombies just hanging out in the basement seems foolhardy. If the two did decide to take action against the PCs, it would be on a more subtle, skin-stealing infiltration level than having them arrested. Also, the Skin Stealer (I'm forgetting which is which) is almost like a trophy killer. Of the two, he is unlikely to leave if he thinks that his kills (and his identity, figuratively and literally)will be taken from him. Besides, the skins of a group of adventurers is almost too tempting to pass up. Also
Regarding the guards, don't forget that a number of them are being used to guard the courthouse and The Beast against the increasingly unruly, carnival-like atmosphere of the town. Again, the people don't want justice; they want to see a monster go up in flames so they can feel safer at night. Because of this, involving the guards can be relegated to the side for any number of reasons (They're busy stopping a fight, looters, etc.)
Regarding the obtaining of illegal evidence: I would play up the influence of the Esoteric Order of the Palantine Eye on the court proceedings (represented by Daramid). I would have hushed, side-excahnges between the lawyers and judges. In this way, I would equate them to an CIA or NSA in American terms, that while still required to legally obtain evidence, have a lot more lee-way to do it. This isn't Geb, and Undead and other horrors don't necessaily have "rights" as far as due process and so forth. While this is true of the Beast, it is equally true of a Skin-Stealer who happens to have the skins of a number of notable people in town. In this way, you can easily have Daramid entitle them to search the place and admit their evidence in court. To emphasize this, look at the evidence being presented against the PCs: eyewitness accounts with little concrete evidence other than the University robbing. The law is being played with fast and loose with here, but it swings both ways.
Hope that helps.. For my group, the unlicensed golem and paper-trail of surgical tools was all the evidence they needed. They did allow a number of the Mongrelfolk to surrender, just not the two main bad guys (this encounter killed a PC, but it was still one of the best of the module.).
Agreed that V&G shouldn't call the guard. Grines is a priest of Norgorber, god of murder and secrets. Once the PCs have seen the inside of the Chymical Works, he's not going to want them alive to tell the tale...besides, their cadavers should fetch a good price.
In my game Vorkstag worked in various disguises to discourage the PCs from defending the Beast. As Professor Katarina Vilk, he tried to convince them that the Beast was deranged, a danger despite his apparent innocence. As the merchant Borgo Zhorno, he offered them a bribe to leave town so that Lepidstat could finally erase the Beast's blot on its name. As Madame Olga, he pretended to sympathize with the Beast to get information from them, and came very close to seducing one. As the Miller of Hargen, he staged a harrow reading that predicted doom for them and their loved ones, should they continue to defend the Beast.
The payoff when they opened his cabinet and realized all those people had been him was all I could have wished for. Well...I really hoped one of them would bang him as Olga, but you can't have everything.
But returning to the issue of legality, I depicted the justice system of Lepidstadt as being heavily Pharasman in character, with judges vested with enormous power and discretion regarding what evidence is admissable. Trials therefore revolve not on legalistic minutia, lawful precedent and lawyer's tricks, but on swaying the judges...which makes the Diplomacy-based system described in the AP make all kinds of sense. My characters were less concerned with getting warrants than with not pissing off Judge Krasp "the Impaler" Aldaar.
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Once again I get great ideas in this forum, once again they come too late...I should have thought about something like this far sooner. I really love the idea of bringing Vorkstag in sooner in disguises, and the judges were pretty faceless men in robes...I really need to fill my NPCs with more life!
Thank you all for the great and long answers!
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In my game, the party knew V&G were likely the killers, but without anything other than the testimony from the blind guy and the scalpel, they really didn't have the authority to enter. They skipped that entire section, but it really didn't make too much of a difference, since they were able to put doubt in the blind guy's testimony and had the whole wraith shenanigans at the dead town. Beast was acquitted of every charge except for the Sausage Idol, which resulted in the Beast being released and banished.
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Feedback time!
My group came to the conclusion that something really bad was going on in V&G's factory and that they should enter with whatever means necessary. They spotted the Mongrelman through one of the windows, but because they barely saw anything they thought that the whole place was crawling with flesh golems, suggesting that they used all the corpses they stole for exactly that purpose.
The paladin spent the afternoon praying to his goddes for forgiveness - he saw no other way to get to the murderers in time before more evil things might be done. I liked the idea, he usually is VERY by the book.
At night they broke in, slaughtered the guard dog, killed all the mongrelmen in the stables (they stood no chance). Then the archaeologist and the ranger sneaked to the room of Grein, found him inside and decided to take him out with a Coup De Grace with non-lethal damage. So he rolled damage, Grein rolled Fortitude.
Natural 20.
Of course, here everything went to hell - before the ranger finished her own Coup De Grace Grein let out a scream, Vorkstag was alarmed, they ran over and got hit in the face with a bomb, Vorkstag ran out and the battle in the factory ensued. The three guards were quickly dealt with, but otherwise it was an uneven fight - archaeologist and ranger blocked the door in Vorkstag's room because they didn't want him to get back in, the rest of the group couldn't really reach Vorkstag all that well. After a while (and some hits by the group) Vorkstag drank his invisibility extract and escaped with his Spider Climb potion. The Sorcerer hit him with burning hands on the way out, but too late - he expected him to use the latter to get out, not that he would use the wall to get behind him and rush out through the door.
My plan for Vorkstag is to heal up a little and then return via the second entrance to destroy all evidence hauled up in the basement, maybe attacking again when he sees the opportunity - my reasoning being that he just saw his whole operation crumble before his eyes and that he is beyond logic, just wanting to kill them all to get his books and then flee as fast as possible.
This and I don't want the problem to arise that they expect him to turn into a red herring later on.
Thanks again for all the input!