We just got through the encounter with Alastor Land and it didn't really go too well. In general, but specifically with our cleric. Here's a little synopsis. Sorry for the length but it was quite disastrous:
The entered Alastor's haunt and proceeded to get knocked around a bit by the iron spheres and then fought the grick. THey're a level 3 party so it really wasn't much of an issue for them. Alastor was taunting and exclaiming the whole time (especially impressed when our cleric dove off the bridge and landed a flying blow to the grick's head) and then when the battle was over he spooked our fighter and malevolenced him.
Things got weird right here. First, everyone was just like "oh, ho hum" and treated it like maybe the fighter had spilled his coffee. They weren't impressed at atll. I played Alastor as much like a 13 year old as I could as he made the plea to break the curse and he would open the door. The PCs were really annoyed by him and tried about everything to not have to go back to town. None had any sympathy for him or cared about his plight. It was like a chore and an annoyance . . . which i guess may be reasonable. The cleric (he's lawful good to a lawful good god called "The Defender") decided he didn't want to be the ghost-child's errand boy and stayed at the cairn and the sorcerer went along.
The other 2 (fighter and ranger) went to the homestead, found the bones dug up, fought the owlbear, then got a lead on who took the bones with the tattooed arm (although i think there is a plothole there . . . if all of the miners from Vesst's mine had that tattoo how do they know it's kullen?) then decided it was best to go back and discuss at the cairn.
They got back and explained and I had alastor get very upset, like he was really sure he'd be reunited with his family and then had his heart broken. Out Cleric got really mad and basically told the ghost off. This scared the boy. Then there was a big silence at the table (we play online) as nobody knew what to do. The fighter and sorcerer then started to talk to Alastor more like one would talk to a 13 year old. He perked up a bit. They told him they tried and if he opened the door they promised to solve his problem.
Now as a DM, sensing I was about to have the whole adventure turn on my head and have the PCs walk out on me, I relinquished a bit. They said they would leave something important behind as a token of their good faith. The cleric said "i'll leave my holy symbol with you if you open this door i promise to bury your bones". Which of course isn't what Alastor wants. another player said something like "man that's bold giving him your holy symbol". The player playing the cleric said something like "i'll tell you about it later"
After the game I said that if he was planning to cheat the ghost-child by only doing what he "*literally* said he would do (nevermind already breaking the bargain in the first place when they failed to find the Land family) that there would be consequences because that isn't lawful good. I also told him I didn't like them planning something "behind my back", and that it was better to count the DM in so I can prepare for it. It seemed to become very PC-vs.-DM. Which i don't like.
Where did I go wrong here? Did anyone else have issues with the Alastor Land encounter? How do you feel about conesquences for a lawful good cleric breaking 1 promise he made to a child (he said he made a good faith effort, but really he sat in the tomb while his friends did the work), then making a second promise that is clearly taking advantage of the kid's lack of understanding? i don't know what kind of consequences there are for a cleric, it's not as cut-and-dry as a paladin. Am I being too harsh? Any suggested solutions? How to handle a situation like this with dm-vs.-player?> Thanks. Again, sorry for the book of a post.
Alastor is hard to keep from being annoying, and if your players aren't mature in the right way, they can forget he's a kid and decide he's a nuisance. Fortunately, the adventure has a built-in way to counter jerk PCs. They don't care about Alastor? Fine. They can get killed by the trap. There are mercenary incentives, after all, not just good-aligned ones.
Have the player tell you, up-front, whether he's pulling any sort of shenanigans. Be very honest with him and tell him that you need his honesty to keep the adventure running.
If he's lying, have him make a Bluff check. Then fudge the Sense Motive.
I know, I know--fudging is generally bad. But you kinda made a mistake in having Alastor agree without his bones being buried with his family, so I suggest you do a bit of behind-the-screen cheating to fix it.
Alastor crosses his arms and tells the PCs that he is not going to risk staying in the place he died in for the rest of eternity. If they won't help him just to be good people, they'll help him if they ever want to get the loot. He wants to go home to his family, and that means he wants his family's remains to be honored.
Oh, and be sure to emphasize how these people are willing to leave a child to eternal suffering. Consider having your cleric get visited by his angry god in his dreams for abandoning a kid's immortal soul out of simple pride. That's not very defendery, is it?
Alternatively, if you don't want to fudge the Sense Motive (or if your player refuses to admit his plans), the guilt trip is still a good technique to force them to cooperate.
If they still refuse to play the game, consider having them get visited by the restless spirits of the family members. Their bodies are being defiled by necromancy. Make these spirits as nice and pitiable as you can to avoid Alastor's slight Scrappy Doo-ness.
Remember: White lies still demand Bluff checks. If he tosses Alastor's bones under a compost heap somewhere, the god, the ghost and the Game Master should all be up-in-arms over that cheated contract.
Also, on a tangent, I doubt even the most staunch paladin debater will claim a Lawful Good cleric about a Protection-themed deity could ever get away with denying a child his or her final rest. That's Chaotic, since he's breaking his implied word in the extreme. It's Evil, since he's refusing to go out of his way to spare an innocent everlasting suffering--after giving them false hope. It's against the portfolio of his god.
And, to make things even worse? He pretty much literally invoked his faith in the deal by putting his holy symbol in the mix. That's like swearing an oath on the One Ring, dude. He is using the holiest symbol of his deity to cheat a child. This will almost certainly piss The Defender off to no end!
EDIT: Also, this is important. Clarify this to your players at once. That brand wasn't for Smenk's employees, it was for the employees of a now bankrupt and dead manager. Those manager's employees went to Smenk, and there are not many of them. That's Kullen's crew. So it's a pretty straightforward clue.
I agree with Kobold Cleaver—clerics are almost as bound to follow their deity's morals as paladins are their code. By offering his holy symbol as a trade, the cleric has shown that he's certainly willing to bring his faith into the matter.
Alastor is a 13 year old kid, and if you're already playing him as a bit stubborn, it stands to reason that he won't negotiate. He's concerned about his family's remains now that he's heard they're missing, and is smart enough to realize that he has some sway over the PCs. So he can flat out refuse to help them until he knows the remains and his have been returned (which he seems to be able to sense magically, so I don't think a bluff check would work).
That said, it's also important that, like you said, you don't turn this into player vs. DM. Probably the best bet is to try to play up Alastor's character strongly, but then when you're talking out of character, immediately change up your tone and be friendly and helpful. Don't let any of Alastor's annoyance and exasperation seep out into the way you speak as yourself. That will reinforce in your player's minds that while Alastor is stubborn and demanding, you are there to provide them with a good game. If the conversation can work in such a way that you get to switch between speaking as the DM and as Alastor a few times, I think it will help keep the tension in character a lot. Subtle manipulation can go a long way to keeping things running smoothly.
Having Alastor or the remaining Lands haunt the players throughout the campaign is actually not half bad. The original way the AP is laid out we don't see Alastor again before Kings of the Rift which is a bit weak - there is not much connective tissue between the Windduke dungeons and the rest of the AoW plot.
Having Alastor pop in from time to time to prod the PCs or provide forgotten knowledge as an agent of the Winddukes can smooth things over a bit.
I like the idea of the repeated haunts so much I may use them in my campaign, Arrinomack. That's a pretty good way to make the reappearance make sense. Just every few modules. Maybe each appearance has a different family member, and it ends in the Rift with Alastor himself.
But see, the only reason they would go to the conservatory is to get past the door. That's the problem.
If the OP can't get the PCs to play along, wordelo pretty much has it right. I'd say avoid involving the authorities, though--that would be a complication, since the mayor generally tries not to risk Smenk's ire.
Instead, I'd say some priests of Wee Jas approach the PCs and ask that they investigate where some bodies have gone. Somebody's going to houses on the outskirts of town and robbing graves.
If they do this, though, again, the cleric needs to suffer major consequences (and everyone else should suffer alignment hits). Leaving Alastor is an evil act.
Thanks for the advice. We're picking up where we left off tomorrow so we'll see how things go.
Hopefully they have a change of heart and decide to help Alistor. If not, I like the idea of having him (or his family) come back to haunt them throughout the adventure path. Maybe at least someone in the party will want to help him out - although except for the cleric they are all something-neutral alignment, which I think my players sometimes like to read as "I have no conscience, no concept of right-vs.-wrong (or don't care about it anyway) and won't lift a finger unless it directly benefits me" While that may be a valid interpretation, it can be annoying for a DM.
I'm not too concerned about the observatory, I can get them there somehow. They failed the Gather Information check (diplomacy in PF) to know about the feral dog but I gave the 2 PCs raised in the town a knowledge (local) to know the information anyway and that passed. We'll see where it leads.
The only thing I haven't figured out is the "punishment" part; i.e. what happens to the cleric if he does break his promise. I still think the God would not be okay with that. I would think losing some power, maybe not enough to completely cripple him but enough to make it worth his while, until he atones. Since he gave his holy symbol as collateral, I think losing all abilities requiring a holy symbol would suffice. A bunch of spells and channeling energy would be out which would be enough to motivate.
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The kid can play hardball too. He's been waiting 30 years and maybe he'll just wait for the next adventuring party to come through and they'll get all the wonderful treasures behind the door...
[and who's to say this can't lead to more adventures. Maybe the players call the kid on his bluff and some adventurers DO set his bones to rest or come looking for the party assuming they've got the bones. Maybe word gets around that they're the graverobbers, etc. Or, maybe these adventurers do get past the door and decide they want the rest of the loot the party has taken. A way to get the party items from the final chamber without going there.]
As for the cleric, ouch if he burns the kid with a lie on his faith. I'm sure he'll create another one or such, but the intent is to cheat a kid who is condemned to eternally walk this earth. Not OK if LG is your path.
I expect the cleric is thinking that he can just buy another holy symbol. But perhaps his deity will punish him (or try to push him along the right path) by not letting any other holy symbol work - so he has to go back and get the one he left with Alastor.
So here is how it played out:
They were allowed through the door by Alistor, but were promptly whipped by the Wind Warriors. They retreated back through the door (half the party had 1 hp or less) and the wind warriors closed it behind them. Alistor then said NO to opening it again or to returning the holy symbol. The party pressed him, trying to bluff first, then calling him unfair . . eventually Alistor got angry and started turning more into a legitimate threat. The party backed off and reluctantly hunted down the bones.
Throughout this time, the cleric had no holy symbol which handicapped the party a bit. He was too embarrassed to go to the temple and ask for another (it wouldn't have worked anyway). Instead he focused entirely on getting his symbol back ASAP by burying the Lands.
Fast Forward - They've defeated Filge and returned the skeletons. They return to the cairn and they find the door open again and the cleric's holy symbol lying on the beam in alistor's haunt. To reward his determination and fortitude both resisting temptation (to lie/cheat) and fulfilling his promise, the God blessed the holy symbol, granting +1 fortitude saves as long as it's worn by the cleric.
I think it actually all worked out pretty well. I'm looking forward to the second battle with the wind warriors now that they are at full strength and know what is coming. Chapter 1 is almost complete.
I don't think breaking a promise is an evil act. it's a chaotic act. I would see someone being chaotic good breaking a promise if it's the best course of action.
True. But condemning a child to eternal damnation because he annoys you? That's evil.