Dumping Book 3?

[Lee Hanna]

I continue to throw out ideas, looking for ways to improve and tailor my game. This one's a bit more radical.

My group has a history of not finishing long campaigns, we tend to lose interest after 2 years of real-time, and have formed a low opinion of playing past 12th level or so.

I like the endgame of Book 6, as well as the war of Book 4 & 5. I intend to mash 4&5 together a bit more closely, and I really hope to get to Book 6 as a big climax to the campaign.

Problems:
Varnhold Vanishing, though, seems to be a jump in a different direction, away from the central plot. I fear taking time on that might be too much of a diversion, and my players will lose interest before we get to the endgame. Also, we play only monthly, and I fear that by the time we get there, they will have forgotten any clues that I've dropped about a fey threat.

I realize that my group would miss out on the levels gained, but if I put them on Fast xp progression, that will make up 2/3 of the lost levels. Also, as my group is 6 players, they seem to be consistently punching above their weight.

I do like the peace-making with the centaurs section, so I am contemplating shifting them somewhere else on the map, perhaps the southeast corner of the Greenbelt.

In short: retain Centaurs and some of the quests that touch on their side of the mountains, shift to Fast XP; drop lost villagers and Vordakai and the related quests.

Opinions? What would I lose by dropping out Vordakai and the empty village? He is a nice villain, but I don't know if I can afford the time to go get him.

[Orthos]

Of all the books, 3 is probably the one you can afford to lose the most. As you say, VV has very little to do with the main plot. I think the only touch it has on the core storyline is foreshadowing Ilthuliak in the dead dragon's cave, and that can easily be dropped or removed.

[John Benbo]

Orthos wrote:

Of all the books, 3 is probably the one you can afford to lose the most. As you say, VV has very little to do with the main plot. I think the only touch it has on the core storyline is foreshadowing Ilthuliak in the dead dragon's cave, and that can easily be dropped or removed.

Agreed. There is some really good info on the boards on how to better incorporate book 3 into the overall campaign but I had already started running it before reading any of that info. My PCs barely explored any of the hexes because as written, once they get to Varnhold, they now have a hook to go solving the mystery. It was nice to have an actual dungeon crawl, but yeah, you're not losing anything by dropping it.

Also, since the book was written when Paizo only had the first Bestiary, it has more of a classic sword&sorcery, old school feel (bulettes, rocs, centaurs) than the rest of the AP which focuses on the fey machinations of Queen Nyrissa. At least in my opinion.

[Lee Hanna]

Agreed on the old-school feel, that's a small reason why I am confident I could drop it out-- I can run it another time, another place.

[Thrund]

I rather like having VV as a sidequest, because it's the only one that is almost guaranteed to take more than a month of game time, forcing the players to actually think about appointing temporary replacements.

However, it is by far the easiest part to drop. Varnhold is far enough away from the rest of the action that it can remain independent without becoming involved with the war, and not having access to those resources will force the PCs' kingdom to be more active in the West.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

My Varnhold Vanishing Changes

I had a little fey war take place in the village (to foreshadow more Nyrissa stuff).

If you're going to fast track Kingmaker though VV is the one to lose.

I would move the Centaurs to southern Drelev the players can gain the Centaurs as allies against the barbarians to the North. Perhaps the Nomen taboo is now focused on the Barbarian King's tomb.

It would make Drelev all the more desperate (squeezed on all sides by Barbarians, Boggards and Centaurs).

[Orthos]

My group has a (lucky?) head start on that, having their Magister under threat of getting called away by Queen Mab for a few months at a time prompted them to appoint a replacement magister (which ended up being his girlfriend, the Old Beldame's apprentice) to fill his slot while he's away. Finding out they'll be on a long-term search-and-rescue might encourage them to do the same for their own positions - thankfully for everyone except the Ruler there's an obvious second-in-command ready to step in (Kesten for the General, Silent Valkeri [6-player expansion] for the Spymistress, a local captain of the guard for the Warden).

[Lee Hanna]

Dudemeister, I like that wrinkle better than moving them to southern Greenbelt. That might give the players incentive to better relations with them, as they deal with both Drelev and the barbarians.

[DrakeCross]

The change I made for book 3 involves how Vord's reawakening leads to a conflict between him and Nyrissa. While he's not as powerful as her considering his thousand years sleep, he still has plenty of magic and the evil artifact he has.

Right now I'm trying to have Nyrissa minpilate the King player into help her complete her plans or eliminate enemies of it, such as the lich. Still her own fae minions cause issues as they start warring with Vord's growing undead army, which he is creating after kidnapping everyone in Varnhold. It could introduce minor army vs army set up between the players, fae and undead but overall its a bit more complicated in the end.

[BigCoffee]

-Actual Dungeon Crawl
-Possibility to link BBEG's meddling with a well place ring of green hair.
-Lich fight at *low* levels
-Good loot
-Scooby-doo time
-Good roleplay possibilities with angry centaurs.

It's a great adventure really, the weakest part of the AP for me was all the troll shenanigans in the previous book.

[Lee Hanna]

More recent thinking...

IMC, there's another ruling house in the plains hexes west-northwest of Oleg's and north of Drelev, already established a generation or two before the current expansion. The dice are leading me to set up some tension between this house and the PCs.

I'd agreed with the idea to move the centaurs into Book 4's map, but now I think I'll move things around a bit more. Let's put the centaurs, bulette, etc., and V's tomb up in the hills NW of Drelev and west of Marstenka's house. Thus, when Drelev and the Tiger Lords start delving into tombs up in centaur territory, it hacks off the centaurs and wakes up Vordakai, and it's the Marstenka village that goes missing, instead of Varn.

Opinions?

[Orthos]

Sounds good =)

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

One thing to note is that Book 3 is the only book without a direct threat to the kingdom, giving the PCs a chance to grow the kingdom without worrying about a looming threat from Trolls, Drelev, Pitax or Nyrissa.

Vordekai is really Varnhold's problem and the PCs having that "breathing space" to grow their kingdom makes the next few books lets the Kingdom grow into a kingdom.

[Lee Hanna]

True, true. I'm caught between competing desires to get the game finished before the (player) group loses interest, and stretching it out to let it take a long (in-game) time.