Okay, let's all nod our heads and agree that ingestion of blood (for any reason) is far worse than deliberate and justified DEVIL WORSHIP
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
You can worship Asmodaeus, Norgberger, Zon Kuthon... all evil deities and yet be neutral. Yet you can't drink a little blood? It seems capricious to me too.
The difference here is that worshipping a deity is not a single, defined action. Any number of actual actions can serve as worship, and not all of those actions are going to be evil. If the actions you perform in order to worship your deity are not evil actions, then neither is the worship, since the worship IS the actions performed.
Drinking blood, on the other hand, is not so variable. There's not an infinite number of different things you might do that are all under the umbrella of "drinking blood". Drinking blood is drinking blood. It's a single act, and is therefore either evil or not.
I don't understand how the two of you don't see the difference between "specific act" and "category of behavior whose individual actions can span a wide range of alignments".
Don't forget you can consume a living creature for power (spider climb) as an example.
Comparing a spider to a person in regards to morality is pretty silly.
And necromancy like you said above.
And like I also said, I think the allowance of necromancy in the campaign IS inconsistent, just as the two of you contend. I just think the answer is to stop handwaving necromancy, instead of to start handwaving cannibalism.
|
Pretty much the truth, David. I've got, at 5th level, right about 100 pages worth of spells... between 1/3 and 1/2 of which I have bought straight out. Only ran into a couple of Wizards (or Magi) in my adventuring career. The trading was nice, when it happened, but, for the most part, it has been a "by your own" world.
Especially harsh once you are up in 3rd level spells... I think I have already bought about 6-8 of them, at 135gp to copy.
Good thing wizards really don't need a lot of items!
|
|
Blood transfusion is a sad loss, but I only have a level 1 wizard so it changes plans but nothing in actuality. I keep wanting to run a scenario of all wizards just to trade spells, but I fear it would kill an all wizard party :).
That said I will ask that Ezren be the pregen of choice when my wizard is playing. :)
Jiggy,
In his defense, you can play a character from Nidal, Cheliax or even Andoran, all evil nations. :P
I think his point is that it seems strange that characters can do all sorts of evil things, except this one thing. You can worship Asmodaeus, Norgberger, Zon Kuthon... all evil deities and yet be neutral. Yet you can't drink a little blood? It seems capricious to me too.
...
From a 'realism' PoV, we're told time and again that Pathfinders aren't a good organization, and they're dedicated to collecting knowlege. Well... win win.
This is exactly my point, folks. Now let's not pretend that Asmodeus is anything other than what he is- THE DEVIL. As noted here:
Asmodeus
Prince of Darkness
God of tyranny, slavery, pride,
and contracts
Alignment: LE
Domains: Evil, Fire, Law, Magic, Trickery
Favored Weapon: Mace
Centers of Worship: Cheliax, Isger, Nidal
Nationality: Devil
Asmodeus is also the most powerful of Hell’s archdevils, and
the only one of that realm’s rulers to rightfully claim the title of
deity.
Now, again, if a neutral character can serve him, and not be evil, I'm pretty sure mine can drink a little blood and make a zombie or two (in the name of science!)and still break even.
I'll make a seperate post on this forthwith, so not to further derail the OP
|
|
Chelaxians would argue that they do not (or most of them do not) worship devils -- they use devils as servants, thralls, and living practice dummies. They worship Asmodeus, who is no more a devil than Iomedae is a mortal human; both were once lesser beings, but now both are full deities.
Chelaxians arguing using a loophole?!? NEVER!
|
I would also argue that not every Chelaxian worships Asmodeus. Again we paint the land because the Ruling house Thrune worships him. A Lot of Chelaxians might venerate other gods in their home or even talk about them.
Whilst the State religon is Asmodeus, the only faiths outrightly banned in Cheliax is worship of the other Arch Devils (ie Mephistopheles etc). Thats effectively no different than Taldor banning the veneration of Sarenrae.. and thats only because its the 'State religon' of Qadira.
I am now more concerned that my Bloatmage will be on the chopping block next.
|
I know this may be derailing the good vs. evil, feats & skills, blood & devil conversation in this thread, but:
...you have access to the Library of the Absalom's Great Lodge and you only pay the 1/2 of the price for copy spells in your spellbook.
Where is this cited? I couldn't find anything listing the Great Lodge option for 1/2 price spells.
Could someone help both me and the OP? I do love the Cypher Script speech, and I'm taking it for my brand new cryptographer / wizard for PFS.
Thank you in advance for re-aligning this thread with the original request...
Stay Awesome!
|
I know this may be derailing the good vs. evil, feats & skills, blood & devil conversation in this thread, but:
...you have access to the Library of the Absalom's Great Lodge and you only pay the 1/2 of the price for copy spells in your spellbook.Where is this cited? I couldn't find anything listing the Great Lodge option for 1/2 price spells.
Could someone help both me and the OP? I do love the Cypher Script speech, and I'm taking it for my brand new cryptographer / wizard for PFS.
Thank you in advance for re-aligning this thread with the original request...
Stay Awesome!
I dug into this ... what it is is that NPC's Charge 1/2 Ink Cost to scribe a spell from their book (thats their fee)... you also have to pay the ink cost to scribe it to yours (Materials) ... thats where the confusion is
CRB Page. 219
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of
copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually
equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see
Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique
spells might cost significantly more.
If you do it that way your totals are as Follows (# = spell level)
0 - 7.5
1 - 15
2 - 60
3 - 135
4 - 240
5 - 375
6 - 540
7 - 995
8 - 1145
9 - 1315
|
Here's one bit of advice from one wizard to another. A suggestion.
It helps to have a list of the spells (the spells in your book) that you can hand to another player. that way it doesn't cut into table time while he reviews your book to see what he can use/wants/doesn't have. And also stick on a big sticky note - that way, when he returns the spell list to you, he should have noted what he has that you don't - that you can add to your book. Get him to note his PFS character number too, that way you have a recored of who you got the spell from (I have just started doing this last part). I even stick the sticky on my Chronicle for that scenario. So it goes something like this:
me to other player as we are sitting down at the table: "here's my spell book. Look thru and copy what you want. I'd like you to note what you have that I don't on this. Pass it back when your done."
Other player: "HA! like you're going to have something I don't... wait, you've got 5th level spells in your 1st level wiz/6th level rogues book??"
Me: "yeah, I adventure with a lot of wizards. This is my 'Wizard Bait'. Anyway, if you have anything I don't just note it ok?".
Me to the Judge: "If we have time & money before the adventure - we'll copy spells, if not, we'll do it at the end afterword. Is that ok? I'll copy anything he has that I don't."
I've had more than one player say "heck, even if we stop the game now, I've had a GREAT game! I'm a lot poorer - but LOTS of new spells!"
This way it only takes a couple minutes away from the RP of the table, reduces table crosstalk, does the needed bookwork, and (most important) doesn't cut into the DMs time/setup/etc.
It does often result in a Wizard player who spends the first 10 minutes of the game with "his nose in a spell book" - giggling to himself. But I figure that even this is good role play. Every wizard is a little bit crazy...
I even mark on the list those spells usable by Alchemists and Magi.... Not that my PC can get spells from them, but I can pass them spells, and inprove the party when I do it.
|
|
Here's one bit of advice from one wizard to another. A suggestion.
...I've had more than one player say "heck, even if we stop the game now, I've had a GREAT game! I'm a lot poorer - but LOTS of new spells!"...
Great suggestion (as always :)
My friend had a similar experience where he couldn't make it to our game & tried to get to the next nearest. Timing was tight and had an hour drive after a long day of work. He got off late and lo & behold, he had played everything they offered. But he was in time to sit at a table for no credit. Then he found out his witch was next to a two wizards and an alchemist. He told me later almost verbatum: I've had a GREAT game! I'm a lot poorer - but LOTS of new spells!"|
|
Yeah, from a spellbook I think is not allowed, maybe it was another witch. His reaction however, made the game for which he got no XP/prestige/gold FUN to play. :)
oh yes. I've had players switch PCs they had planned to play in a game when they found that I would play my Rogue... just to get access to his spellbook.
|
|
Yeah, from a spellbook I think is not allowed, maybe it was another witch. His reaction however, made the game for which he got no XP/prestige/gold FUN to play. :)oh yes. I've had players switch PCs they had planned to play in a game when they found that I would play my Rogue... just to get access to his spellbook.
My issue is this.. only one in about FIVE wizard badguys have a book of spells listed. ONE in FIVE.. MAYBE. We rely on spells and if you're like me with a prestige class, you lose the two 'free spells' a level as well. That doesnt' sound like much.. but it can turn into a money sink fast. My 11th Wizard stayed a wizard for that reason.. my Transmuter/Maagamban Arcanist takes a hit every level to get spells.
Blood Biography (which the arcanist can't use easily, double slots for evil spells) is an option for some that has been of use to some folks.
...and that scribing cost is exactly the same as it would be if you found a spellbook on the corpse.
|
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
|
The scribing cost may be the same. But you don't have to pay a corpse for access to the spellbook; you do have to pay an NPC wizard. So it's still cheaper to copy spells from a defeated spellcaster's spellbook (or from scrolls you found but didn't use) than from an NPC.
The scribing cost may be the same. But you don't have to pay a corpse for access to the spellbook; you do have to pay an NPC wizard. So it's still cheaper to copy spells from a defeated spellcaster's spellbook (or from scrolls you found but didn't use) than from an NPC.
...and were there a dead wizard on the ground, with his spellbook, he'd not be needing payment that way either. Trouble is, wizards and magi are far less common in PFS than spontaneous casters (for some reason) and when they do appear, don't always have a spellbook (also unlikely).
Who cares if a wizard, witch, or magus has a ton more spells than a sorcerer? They have to prepare a few in advance anyway- and it's not like Paizo or the Society gets to pile up that "access fee" gold, lol. That's the reason to play one anyway-versatility at the cost of spontaneity.
|
|
My issue is this.. only one in about FIVE wizard badguys have a book of spells listed. ONE in FIVE.. MAYBE. We rely on spells and if you're like me with a prestige class, you lose the two 'free spells' a level as well. That doesnt' sound like much.. but it can turn into a money sink fast. My 11th Wizard stayed a wizard for that reason. my Transmuter/Maagamban Arcanist takes a hit every level to get spells.
This has changed drastically I feel in recent days. I can think of a Season 5 scenario with BOTH a spellbook and a formula book.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For that, as a GM I actually make a little custom player handouts for their spellbooks when I am prepping a scenario.
As a bonus, I have started to add these handouts into my templates creatures and stat blocks that I upload to the Shared Folder, like for the:
|
|
...and were there a dead wizard on the ground, with his spellbook, he'd not be needing payment that way either. Trouble is, wizards and magi are far less common in PFS than spontaneous casters (for some reason) and when they do appear, don't always have a spellbook (also unlikely).
Word Count. A caster has their spells listed in two places: offense/defense and tactics. A prepared caster's spellbook would also show up in gear. A spontaneous caster has 2 or 3 of their highest level spell and the tactic is: Use X first. A prepared caster might have twice that and those options can translate into a lot of if/then statements in tactics. Oh yeah, Arcane Bond is a viable option, increasing the word count further. The difference might not be much, 50 words is probably an exaggeration. )Try writing up two 3rd level casters, one spontaneous one prepared and you'll see the difference.
How many fights last 5 rounds? 3? Having more than 5 spells is wasted words from the GMs point of view.
Now remember that scenarios have two (or three) tiers and the difference gets doubled (or more). Not sure how much each scenario is (25-30K?) but spontaneous casters are much easier to work in. This happens with all published adventures, not just PFS. Anything with a word count favors spontaneous casters (just as it favors bestiary monsters and simple templates).