| 8 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lets use this skill for example:
Misfortune (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day.
The GM says I cant force reroll after the roll is shown.
I say I cant reroll after GM says "roll hit" or "roll missed"
They think I have to reroll before I know what the roll is. That... doesnt make sense... Y'know?
Can someone clarify this, so I can point it out to the GM?
You're right. The feat would be kind of useless otherwise.
Just need a few people to state that here, so I can convince GM.
Also, not a feat. A double cursed oracle skill
Link to previous thread on the subject. No dev weigh-in, unfortunately, but there are more posts agreeing with your stance. :)
Thats my point. There's ZERO benefit... If it works the way he wants it
[12:49:12 AM] GM: So don't take it. lol
[12:49:14 AM] ivan: I declare a reroll, and reroll regardless of their roll
[12:49:34 AM] ivan: The way its supposed to be is before the GM tells me that the monster hit me
[12:49:59 AM] GM: It's the same effect. It has to be before you know the result of the roll.
[12:50:09 AM] GM: Which in a normal game would be before the DM reveals the result.
[12:50:16 AM] GM: In this game it'd be before the roll is made
[12:50:31 AM] ivan: Did you read the reference thread? Because this way, whats the point?
[12:50:50 AM] ivan: If i declare beforehand, Even if your roll is a Nat 1, you reroll
[12:51:03 AM] ivan: The skill is useless if using your interpretation
[12:51:05 AM] GM: Or he could have rolled a nat 20 on his first roll
[12:51:13 AM] GM: And on the reroll rolled a nat 1
[12:51:28 AM] ivan: But what if its the other way around
[12:51:28 AM] GM: You don't know what the effect is, it's why it's it's a power revolving luck.
[12:51:49 AM] ivan: Then tell me, whats the point of even making a reroll?
[12:51:55 AM] ivan: If the 1st roll doent matter
[12:52:07 AM] GM: It's all in the eyes of the beholder.
[12:52:17 AM] ivan: Same thing if the GM said " for next attack I roll 10 rolls, and only 7th counts"
[12:52:25 AM] ivan: No point rolling the other 9
[12:52:32 AM] ivan: except for the sake of rolling
[12:53:18 AM] GM: What would be the point in getting Weapon Focus if you already have a +50 to hit? Well some people might want a +51 to hit, while others would see that extra 1 as useless.
[12:53:28 AM] GM: It's all in the eyes of the beholder.
[12:53:46 AM] ivan: But weapon focus is made to be used when you are low lvl
[12:53:50 AM] ivan: When the +1 matters
[12:53:55 AM] ivan: THis will never matter
[12:54:01 AM] ivan: if used your way
[12:54:15 AM] GM: You can trade in your revelation for another because you misunderstood what it does. But its effects are clear in the rules, it has to be declared before the results are known
[12:54:58 AM] ivan: So you say I have to declare before he rolls?
[12:55:10 AM] GM: Yes.
[12:55:24 AM] ivan: Then that is the wrong interpretation >_<
[12:55:26 AM] GM: It's what the rules state. Clout would most likely agree with my interpretation.
[12:55:31 AM] ivan: Because the thing says
[12:55:42 AM] GM: No. The thing says before the result is known.
[12:55:43 AM] ivan: reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made
[12:55:50 AM] ivan: [12:55 AM] ivan:
<<< has just made
[12:55:57 AM] ivan: GM makes roll
[12:56:12 AM] ivan: And since in this campaign we dont hide rolls...
[12:56:22 AM] GM: Renen. It's based on the idea that a GM rolls something behind a GM screen
[12:56:37 AM] ivan: Hrm...
[12:56:38 AM] GM: I roll it, then before I say the result, someone says "Eh, reroll it."
[12:56:56 AM] ivan: But how do i know that i need to use it?
[12:57:22 AM] GM: You don't. Then again it's an immediate action you can use as many times as you like in a day, only limitation being it doesn't work against the same target twice.
[12:58:13 AM] ivan: Did you read the thread I linked? One where 90% of the people agree with me, and explain (better than me) why it should work that way?
I dont know how to explain this >_< Even linked the thread u gave me.
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I doubt he's someone that understands the implication of re-rolling without purpose.
The die result is known when this power triggers, the result of that die is not.
It's clearly meant to be when the monster rolls to say hit, or save, or a knowledge check etc... that you can take a glance at the die and say you see a "20" and you think "well that'll probably succeed, make him re-roll"
or you see a 12 and think "that might be a save, let's make him re-roll because we really need this to work"
There is no eye of the beholder to this.
If he as a GM wants to take this stance and compare a concrete static modifier like weapon focus to re-roll an unknown result, you're out of luck you can't fix crazy.
Yeh. I ask the GM if the campaign would be different if the GM ALWAYS rolls twice and ignores 2nd roll. He says "In some sense, yes. In some sense no."
I hope enough ppl in this thread can help convince him otherwise >_<
Also, perhaps FAQ this? >_<
Ask your GM if he would allow you to do the following:
Enemy is about to roll an attack roll:
Oracle: "Okay, but if he rolls a 15 or better, I'm going to make him re-roll the die"
You said you were going to use misfortune before the die roll was revealed. You merely stated a condition on which to use Misfortune. Seems to satisfy even strict interpretations.
Perhaps just use it on your fellow players when they roll badly (but dont yet know if theyve hit) and see if he gets the point. Ostentatiously refrain from using it if they roll well.
He's reading the words but not thinking about what it means in the context of the game.
In addition to that, ask your GM if he'd simply prefer you not to play a Dual Cursed Oracle.
I've GMed for one and they are very powerful and at times frustrating. There's plenty of reason for him to want to nerf misfortune and hard. But it would be easier for him just to say "dont play dual-cursed oracle".
Ask your GM if he would allow you to do the following:
Enemy is about to roll an attack roll:
Oracle: "Okay, but if he rolls a 15 or better, I'm going to make him re-roll the die"You said you were going to use misfortune before the die roll was revealed. You merely stated a condition on which to use Misfortune. Seems to satisfy even strict interpretations.
Ended up using this. But since I know exactly how much the enemy has to roll to hit me (I do), it really does nothing to change the skill.
But I still hope this gets FAQ's. Since this way, having to say it in advance is annoying.
Well, there's that other thread on it too... and i do kinda see where he is coming from, even though it makes no sense.
The Random pick column is pretty much what Your GM giving you.
If you click on any empty spot(like the one just under "first roll") and hit delete it will reroll all of the dice.
If you want to find a good compromise just say you always want them to reroll if it's 11 or more(if roll is > 10)
That is a fairly good rule to follow anyway because it gives you the best spread.
Ended up using this. But since I know exactly how much the enemy has to roll to hit me (I do), it really does nothing to change the skill.
Maybe, but that wont be the case all the time. Your GM has to make their ruling for the entire game, not just one combat.
Ah, there's nothing like a GM who doesn't understand how random numbers work.
The most charitable thing I can think of to say is that if you want to play with that GM, I'd stay the heck away from any abilities involving rerolls. Otherwise, find a new GM. In my experience, GMs who are both math-impaired and too obstinate to realize it rarely make up for it in the roleplaying department. Hopefully, yours is an exception.
FAQ'd anyway. While it's obvious to most folks due to the implications of each interpretation, this question does actually get asked frequently. Therefore, it's a prime candidate for FAQing.
Wow. This is pretty simple.
1) Roll the die
2) See what the number on the die is.
3) Decide to (force a) reroll or not.
4a) If no reroll, announce result (hit, miss, save, fail, etc).
4b) If reroll, roll the die and announce result.
- Gauss
I FAQ'd it just for Renen's sake, I hope the dm sees the error of his ways quickly though. That is one of the most inane things I have ever heard.
I guess this is one of those abilities that only really works if the GM rolls completely in the open. Most of those I know roll behind a screen, so I'd never get a chance to check out the roll anyway. It does limit the usefullness of forced rerolls.
"Before the results of the roll are revealed" doesn't mean before you see what is one the die. It means before you know if what was on the die plus any relevant modifiers equals a success or failure.
This.
Are we missing the point here? Odds are, the DM understands the rule very well. He just does not WANT to include this oracle revelation in his game. In the conversation, he offers you the choice of picking something else. Pick a new one, or get a new DM.
Rule Zero = The DM can do what he wants in his game.
But of course, by an objective reading of the rules, he is wrong.
It sounds like the GM in this case is making target DC's known to the table before the rolls are made which changes the impact of this ability. (Ie, the difference between "make a fort save" and "make a DC 18 fort save.") It is one thing to look at a die and see the roll is high and force a reroll, it is another to know for certain if the reroll is required.
OP said he knows exactly what baddies must roll to hit him, if he knows their attack bonus for some reason then "before the result is revealed" = "before you know what you rolled."
Edit- I would also point out that your GM seems very chill and on top of his game from reading your Skype. You said the same things over and over but he didn't seem to get annoyed or upset. He even offered to let you swap abilities. It sounds like his decision on this is final and perhaps continuing to stir the pot on this topic is unwise.